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cashew
06-27-2008, 05:39 PM
How on earth does one play a Fdim7 chord? I don't have enough solid knowledge of music theory to put it together for myself (slept through that class in high school I guess)

Also, can someone explain to me what the 7 means? (oy, yeah if someone could explain the theory behind it I'd be indefinitely grateful!)

--Cashew

PS== After some playing around, I'm playing it as 5454, is that near correct? (sounds ok to me, but i could be off)

Howlin Hobbit
06-27-2008, 06:45 PM
You can find my "Cheater Music Theory" doc on the ukulele page at my site. It ought to help a bit.

And wtf, it's free.

cashew
06-27-2008, 06:55 PM
Thanks!

Wow-- thats incredibly informative, i know I'm gonna need to read it a few times to understand it completely. (I'm kind of a dunce with this sort of thing)

yodiepants
07-27-2008, 07:33 PM
(Skip to the bottom for the short answer.)

The F refers to the root of the chord. If you were playing Cmaj, C would be the root. Then you add the 3rd and the 5th. For Cmaj, count up from C: C, D E is the third. The 5th, also count up from C. C, D, E, F, G is the 5th. Thus, the triad looks like this: CEG. You can add an extra C on top too, for CEGC. Or, the lowest note can be E, which would look like EGCE.

You can spread them out like this:
E G C E if you like. It is all the same thing.

If you had Cmaj7, you would add the 7th on top. C, D, E, F, G, A, B. So the chord is CEGB. You could do the 9th too. CEGBD. 11th, CEGBDF, 13th CEGBDFA, 15th, CEGBDFAC.. Ok, too far.

So! Fdim7. You need to know what a dim7 is. That's harder.

But the short version is F, Ab, Cb, Ebb. This is probably the reason you're having trouble. A lot of people will tell you that Cb and B are the same thing, but assuredly, they're not! Same for D and Ebb.

Fdim7 comes from the Gb minor scale, Gb Ab Bbb Cb Db Ebb Fb Gb. You can raise the 6th and 7th degrees in in a minor scale for melodic and harmonic purposes. So you can get an F from the Fb and a Eb from the Ebb. So, raise the Fb to F and get F Ab Cb Ebb! Ta da!

Ok. buuuut, the exciting thing about Diminished chords is that you can switch them around in a way that I don't think I can explain. But ...
D F Ab Cb
B D F Ab
G# B D F
are all the same chord.

You can use a Bdim7 instead of a Fdim7. It will sound exactly the same.



How on earth does one play a Fdim7 chord? I don't have enough solid knowledge of music theory to put it together for myself (slept through that class in high school I guess)

Also, can someone explain to me what the 7 means? (oy, yeah if someone could explain the theory behind it I'd be indefinitely grateful!)

--Cashew

PS== After some playing around, I'm playing it as 5454, is that near correct? (sounds ok to me, but i could be off)

WS64
07-27-2008, 08:45 PM
How on earth does one play a Fdim7 chord?

...

PS== After some playing around, I'm playing it as 5454, is that near correct? (sounds ok to me, but i could be off)

I guess you either count in "the other way" or you mean 4545.
4545 is correct, 1212 would be maybe easier (when your other chords are playing in about the same frets).

Check my chordfinder (http://4stringchords.com/) for more chord variations.

SuperSecretBETA
07-27-2008, 10:08 PM
gCEA, x545

cashew
07-27-2008, 10:51 PM
I guess you either count in "the other way" or you mean 4545.
4545 is correct, 1212 would be maybe easier (when your other chords are playing in about the same frets).

Check my chordfinder (http://4stringchords.com/) for more chord variations.

You are absolutely correct. I play it 4545 :)

I've been practicing more, so I've been working on getting up and down the neck a little easier :) but 1212 would be easier (I thought that 1212 was in the F chord family (at work, cant remember my notes at home ))

Howlin Hobbit
07-28-2008, 11:24 AM
A lot of people will tell you that Cb and B are the same thing, but assuredly, they're not! Same for D and Ebb.

Man, this kind of answer just chaps my ass.

<rant>

Oh, assuredly they are. I know all about having to "spell" a note differently to make it enharmonically correct, but your D and your Ebb are the same damn key(s) on the piano or string(s)/fret(s) on the uke.

A D and an Ebb in a given octave will have the same cycles/second and therefore sound the same.

They are the same note.

Getting into such esoteric theory is great way to confuse a noob though. But that shouldn't be the purpose of an answer in a forum, unless the forum is dedicated to extreme theory wonk discussion.


Ok. buuuut, the exciting thing about Diminished chords is that you can switch them around in a way that I don't think I can explain. But ...
D F Ab Cb
B D F Ab
G# B D F
are all the same chord.

Same thing here. (Hey kids! Let's play "confuse a noob!")

Feh.

Here's the simple explanation. A dim7 can be called any of the four notes in it. For example, the first row there (D F Ab B... screw a bunch of Cb) can be called Ddim7, Fdim7, Abdim7 or Bdim7.

The chord repeats every three frets. So, if you're playing a G#dim7 (the third line in yodiepants' example) at 1212 you'll be playing those four notes in this order: G#, D, F, B. Go up three frets (to 4545) and you'll be playing the notes in this order: B, F, G#, D. Three more frets (to 7878) and you'll be playing the notes in this order: D, G#, B, F.

Same four notes. Same chord. Just different inversions.

I urge any folk that are new to theory to check out my Cheater Theory Doc. It'll give you all you need to know (and maybe a bit more) to get along with other musicians in a real world situation.

If you want to go on from there you'll find out that yodiepants is correct... but only in esoteric and/or extreme classical situations. Most folk simply don't bother with that and have no problem getting along.

I mean... name one song in Cb or Ebb. Hell, show me a Circle of Fifths diagram with those notes.

I'll repeat and simplify. You don't have to worry about such things to play ukulele.

</rant>

yodiepants
07-28-2008, 08:39 PM
Sorry for the ass chapping! My intention wasn't to be confusing.

There are quite a lot of arrangements out there that used double sharps and C flats. When you're arranging for an orchestra, you often have to put parts in uncommon keys so they'll play nice together. They are used because they make the music reading significantly less confusing by staying in the same key. It is for the same you only see F# in Gmaj, and no Gb.

I imagine the reason you don't see Cb on the circle of fifths is because it is on the second cycle through, and it assumed to be there. If you put Cb, why not Cbbbbbbbb too. Just because it isn't there doesn't mean it doesn't exist! (Though, that would be an exciting image, spiraling down into infinity...)

All said, I didn't mean to get all theoretical/ivory tower on y'all though. Still, this is pretty basic theory, and not at all extreme or esoteric. I've found it to be really helpful in my playing too. For example, if I'm playing in Gmin, I'm going to look for chords in Gmin. A C Eb Gb isn't a chord in Gmin so I won't be looking for it. F# A C Eb is, however and that's the one I'll find. And I'll know what to do with it too! You just need to know your scales and then everything fits into place. But certainly, to each their own. I definitely wouldn't discourage pursuing it however. :)

I guess it comes down to that I'm more interested in improvising than playing songs, and I'm suggesting a solution that would be better for that.



Man, this kind of answer just chaps my ass.

<rant>

Oh, assuredly they are. I know all about having to "spell" a note differently to make it enharmonically correct, but your D and your Ebb are the same damn key(s) on the piano or string(s)/fret(s) on the uke.

A D and an Ebb in a given octave will have the same cycles/second and therefore sound the same.

They are the same note.

Getting into such esoteric theory is great way to confuse a noob though. But that shouldn't be the purpose of an answer in a forum, unless the forum is dedicated to extreme theory wonk discussion.



Same thing here. (Hey kids! Let's play "confuse a noob!")

Feh.

Here's the simple explanation. A dim7 can be called any of the four notes in it. For example, the first row there (D F Ab B... screw a bunch of Cb) can be called Ddim7, Fdim7, Abdim7 or Bdim7.

The chord repeats every three frets. So, if you're playing a G#dim7 (the third line in yodiepants' example) at 1212 you'll be playing those four notes in this order: G#, D, F, B. Go up three frets (to 4545) and you'll be playing the notes in this order: B, F, G#, D. Three more frets (to 7878) and you'll be playing the notes in this order: D, G#, B, F.

Same four notes. Same chord. Just different inversions.

I urge any folk that are new to theory to check out my Cheater Theory Doc. It'll give you all you need to know (and maybe a bit more) to get along with other musicians in a real world situation.

If you want to go on from there you'll find out that yodiepants is correct... but only in esoteric and/or extreme classical situations. Most folk simply don't bother with that and have no problem getting along.

I mean... name one song in Cb or Ebb. Hell, show me a Circle of Fifths diagram with those notes.

I'll repeat and simplify. You don't have to worry about such things to play ukulele.

</rant>

yodiepants
07-28-2008, 09:38 PM
Also, it might be useful to consider suggesting, "This answer is outside the scope of what the users of this forum will find useful," instead of haranguing new users and making them feel unwelcome. Positive criticism works wonders! :)


Man, this kind of answer just chaps my ass.

Oh, assuredly they are. I know all about having to "spell" a note differently to make it enharmonically correct, but your D and your Ebb are the same damn key(s) on the piano or string(s)/fret(s) on the uke.

deach
07-29-2008, 02:32 AM
Man, this kind of answer just chaps my ass.


I've seen HH's ass in a pair of chaps. That's some sexy stuff right there.

UkeNinja
07-29-2008, 02:49 AM
esoteric and/or extreme classical situations

Most folk simply don't bother
It is my profound conviction that there is a middle road between the above two schools of thought that will eventually lead us to world peace, uke peace and bed peace. Well, maybe not the latter...
Personally, I was lost quickly in yodiepants' explanation, a bit too much too fast perhaps for beginning musicians. But luckily my buttocks are quick and nimble (the right more so than the left), so no chapping was involved. If the explanation is not to your liking, a quick and easier-to-understand version by the critic will likely help us humble "how many lines on a music sheet?" people more in getting to grips with the ins and outs of music.

Throw in a :nana: and we're back in the race! Fdim7???

deach
07-29-2008, 02:58 AM
... But luckily my buttocks are quick and nimble (the right more so than the left)....

Ah, a true ninja would have a harmonic buttock balance.

yodiepants
07-29-2008, 06:23 PM
I agree with you completely! I've been reading about music anthropology recently, and it was actually what caused me to borrow my friend's uke. Admittedly, I've only recently learned the value in folk style music in a by-the-people-for-the-people sense. American culture really takes the fun out of a lot of things like music. Alan Merriam suggests that music here is a lot like science, in that only specialists are allowed to prepare it but everyone gets the benefits. (He then points out how ridiculous that is.)

Point being, I think there is a lot merit in both. Yanni, for example, never took a piano lesson, and by only plays what sounds good to him, he has been quite successful. The lead singer from System of a Down apparently graduated from Juliard. (No aesthetic judgements, just the facts!)

Perhaps it comes down to a different kind of musical understanding?



It is my profound conviction that there is a middle road between the above two schools of thought...

Personally, I was lost quickly in yodiepants' explanation, a bit too much too fast perhaps for beginning musicians.

You got quickly lost probably because the explanation was pretty crappy! The question had pretty much been answered I thought, so I tried to point out where the confusion in finding the chord came from. The confusion came in that it is actually pretty confusing! Hah! :nana:

Howlin Hobbit
07-29-2008, 10:15 PM
Sorry if I sounded overly harsh (I did label it a rant!).

I've been on the various ukulele boards for about 7 or so years now. When someone comes in and says "How do a play a (insert chord name here)?" what the majority (if not all) want is the "Jus' press" answer. As in, "Jus' press here."

Most of the time when a real theory wonk is raving on, if you be very quiet, you can hear the subtle sound of eyeballs glazing over.

I'm a strong believer in learning at least the rudiments of theory. Helps out a lot. But probably better than 90% of the uke players I read posts from aren't that interested. They're playing mostly in their living rooms and other such locales for personal enjoyment. Nothing wrong with that.

And as far as using the double flats, etc. for orchestral arrangements, how many people reading this are aiming to play their ukes in the local philharmonic? Raise your hands.

Thought so.

UkuLeLesReggAe
07-29-2008, 10:17 PM
I've seen HH's ass in a pair of chaps. That's some sexy stuff right there.

thats a bit worrying

Howlin Hobbit
07-29-2008, 10:19 PM
I've seen HH's ass in a pair of chaps. That's some sexy stuff right there.

thats a bit worrying

You're just lucky he didn't mention the whips.

UkuLeLesReggAe
07-29-2008, 10:23 PM
........disturbing.. very very disturbing