The mind boggles.. Depends how you kickstart, with busking or begging...
Busking and Begging
- Thread starter Rllink
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The mind boggles.. Depends how you kickstart, with busking or begging...
itsme
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In L.A., the newer parking meters accept credit/debit cards. Some areas charge enough that you can't conceivably carry enough quarters to stay for more than a few minutes. $5/hr. is a lot of quarters!
willisoften
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I don't object to busking, but I never really stopped to listen to one either.
There is guy who sits playing opposite Cafe Nero, I often hoped he would be arrested by music loving coppers.
Recently he aquired an amplifier, seriously I've changed my coffee shop.
I donate occasionally but more likely to the homeless guy, or alcoholic with the performing dog (there but for the grace of God ...)
There is guy who sits playing opposite Cafe Nero, I often hoped he would be arrested by music loving coppers.
Recently he aquired an amplifier, seriously I've changed my coffee shop.
I donate occasionally but more likely to the homeless guy, or alcoholic with the performing dog (there but for the grace of God ...)
I see your stance form your last two replies, its not always about money. Your responding as if its a necessity to go out and be a street performer, so necessary that you would call it work. Its not work. Where in turn most beggars and homeless are doing out of a necessity. I've had some homeless men tell me that its their job to go out and beg, its how they survive. What you want to tax the homeless man's measly $300 a year income too? I've discussed this topic with folks who believe that every human is offering some sort of service with everything they do and should have a paper trail for every little transaction....Are you one of those people Steve? If I held a door open for a lady and she bought me a beer. Does that mean I am a working doorman and I have to tell the feds that she bought me a beer, not as gesture of appreciation but as payment for opening the door for her. "Hey lady, thanks for paying my wages as a doorman with a $7 beer. Here's a tax form."... That's pure nonsense and a terrible way to look at life. Like I said I've had this discussion before with several folks and we will always disagree. We can argue for weeks, months, we just don't agree.There's nothing to discuss if we disagree.You see it as work, I don't. Some cities agree with you, some don't, I'll keep performing in the cities and countries that allow it and respect it as an artistic act of self expression, because that's exactly what it is.
A good question. One good reason is that the money that ends up in the case is a measure of sorts. Like applause, it shows that you are connecting with your audience on some level (even if it's just pity...). It gives the audience a way to say "thank you" and it gives you feedback on how your stuff is going over with the crowd.
There is also a special little thrill in going out to busk with a few friends, and then a few hours later buying a sandwich or a pizza with the money. It's hard to turn applause into pizza... Busking then eating with the proceeds actually feels like turning your hours of practice into food. There's nothing quite like it.
This is exactly the case, no one is getting rich from busking, compared to an actual job, you make dirt. Most of the time you can make some beer money or pizza money and then be on your way.
Its fundraising. You can argue that its begging, but its definitely not a live performance of any kind, its a website designed specifically to collect money for projects.
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I would also like to add that I've met some incredible people on my travels through being a street performer, and I wouldn't change any of that because of someone else being judgmental about the subject matter. Nor am I going to stop I'm young and have the means to travel at the moment so I am seizing the opportunity to do so. Sharing my life through art and music wherever I travel to, no amount of money or lack of money from performing will change the amazing experiences that I have had being a street performer. I've gravitated to the stage more in the past years but I don't think I will stop being a street performer anytime soon, maybe when I get older, but just have to wait and see haha. These guys were still doing it at 40
UncleMoon
Well-known member
Exactly. I spent a little more than $150 for me & my wife to see BB King in May. When he played he was good as ever, but here's how the show went: spent most of the time talk with a lady in the front row; lost track of where he was a couple times; played the same song twice (well.. about halfway through the second time he waved the band down and said "we already played this... then went on to ramble for another 10 minutes); I think he only played 6 songs including "You are my sunshine". I can't remember the last time I felt so cheated.
anthonyg
Well-known member
Busking is hard work. I just started busking again after a winter hiatus. I've tried to busk in winter before. I was freezing my butt off (Canberra is COLD in winter) and no one was tipping me anyway. The beggars don't like me (we are kind of in competition for good spots) so I guess I'm not a beggar. I only do 1 1/2 hour sessions. After that I'm too tense and lose my rhythm.
The tax man does NOT want to know about your income from busking. Seriously. If the tax man accepts your declaration of income from busking then the tax man is also obligated to allow you to claim all your equipment and consumables as expenses. Maybe if your make a LOT of money from busking and its your full time job then the tax man wants to know but otherwise don't sweat it. Its just hobby income and the tax man doesn't want to allow claims for equipment from every backyard hobbyist who is making a few thousand dollars a year from their hobby. This is how it goes in Australia anyway.
Anthony
The tax man does NOT want to know about your income from busking. Seriously. If the tax man accepts your declaration of income from busking then the tax man is also obligated to allow you to claim all your equipment and consumables as expenses. Maybe if your make a LOT of money from busking and its your full time job then the tax man wants to know but otherwise don't sweat it. Its just hobby income and the tax man doesn't want to allow claims for equipment from every backyard hobbyist who is making a few thousand dollars a year from their hobby. This is how it goes in Australia anyway.
Anthony
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WCBarnes
Well-known member
That's a new twist... I may become a busker, report my earnings, and declare my business expenses. Government supported UAS!!
anthonyg
Well-known member
Yes. This is why the tax man is happy to turn a blind eye to income such as busking. There will be a threshold. The threshold will vary but its more than say, $5000. If your making good money elsewhere and you think that it would be nice to write off your ukulele purchases because you made some money busking then the tax man will likely disallow it outright. You should check your local tax laws but honestly, don't get flustered about yourself/someone else earning a few thousand dollars a year busking.
Anthony
gardens_guitar
Active member
I prepare taxes for a living. In each of the above scenarios, the person (assuming the USA) has to report the income and pay any income and self-employment (Social Security plus Medicare - both the employer and employee portion.
A payor does not have to issue a 1099-MISC to a contractor if the amount is under $600 but the payee must report. A bank does not have to issue a 1099-INT if the interest for the year is below $10 but the amount will be on your December statement and you are supposed to report it - even if it is only $1.00.
The US Internal Revenue Code requires all income to be reported. You might not have to file a return if all of your income is less than your personal exemption and standard deduction amounts.
Gifts are not reportable income to the recipient but receiving money in exchange for providing entertainment is not a gift - it is reportable income. Assuming the entertainer is not incorporated, the income and all associated expenses are reported on Form 1040 Schedule C. The net amount determines the income and self-employment taxes.
SteveZ
Well-known member
The busking/begging questions is one which transcends the legal and the moral, both of which bend with the times and locale. The moral viewpoint tends to lean to the liberal, the legal towards the conservative.
It's easy to see busking from the moral side - 1) it's been done forever, 2) there's all kinds of it, 3) the cash quantum is insignificant (to the payer and possibly the receiver), and 4) when done with consideration for others it can complement a dull area.
The hard part is to see busking from the legal side. First of all, there would be no legal side if all buskers adhered to 4) above. Almost all regulation occurs because 1-10% of those who do something do it without concern for others and see things as "I want to do it and don't care if it interferes with you when I do." All requirements for permits, licensing, quiet-time, location restrictions and such occur because a minority of buskers are rude and self-centered. As a result, and it happens everywhere in society, the majority get penalized because of the actions of a minority.
Will buskers be taxed? Probably never, as the enforcement will cost more than the collected revenue. However, I stand by my view that busking for money is indeed self-employment even if income isn't taxed (I hate income taxes, period!), no different than the amateur potter who occasionally sells one of his/her creations at an art show. As soon as money changes hands, commerce occurs (also a time-immemorial reality, older than "art") . If the artist uses the "donation" for his/her personal use, then it's not "applause" but earned revenue. However, if the artist further donates the donation, then the artist is an unpaid catalyst for others (e.g., Farm Aid, Telethon, church bake sale, etc.).
The perception of being a beggar instantly arises when the busker acts like the inconsiderate neighbor - reducing a sidewalk walkway, hanging around a business' doorway, and generally acting in an in-your-face manner. Just because the artist wants to do something does not mean the general public must accommodate the artist's whims or art form. The artist who shoves him/herself in front of the public out of unwelcomed personal arrogance should expect to be treated as an interloper, and the "beggar" label or "unlicensed public vendor" label is society's legal response (better the legal response than vigilanteism). Ironically, most artists I know also expect others to respect the artists' privacy and desire to be left "unsolicited" and treat the general public the same way. Again, the minority's inconsiderate actions end up impacting the majority.
Is it "artistic act of self-expression" or a just a means of soliciting money when needed/wanted? The question again is whether one displays the art with the expectation of receiving funds or would do it if no money ever was or could be received?
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gardens_guitar
Active member
In my earlier post, I assumed that the artist was intent on making a profit, hence the need to file a Schedule C. If the artist is not intent on making a profit, then by the tax law they have a hobby. Gross hobby income is reported on Form 1040 line 21 Other Income. No deductions are taken on this line. The hobby income is not subject to Self-employment tax but it is subject to income tax.
Any expenses are taken on Form 1040 Schedule A, Itemized Deductions in the Miscellaneous Deductions section. If you do not itemize then you cannot deduct any expenses. If you do itemize, then your expenses cannot exceed your hobby income (line 21). Your expenses are then reduced by an amount equal to 2% of your AGI.
The only legal way to avoid paying tax on either hobby or business income is to have total income lower than the filing requirement.
The IRS may never find out about your income but failure to report it is a moral issue. Basically, if you don't pay then the rest of us have to pay more.
One bright spot. Someone posted earlier that they paid an entry fee to a fair and played for free. If the fair is run by a government agency or a 501c charity then the admission fee and any expenses related to the performance are deductible as cash charitable contributions on Schedule A (assuming you itemize). Just have good records of your expenses. You cannot deduct the value of your time to play or any lost revenue from not playing elsewhere.
Any expenses are taken on Form 1040 Schedule A, Itemized Deductions in the Miscellaneous Deductions section. If you do not itemize then you cannot deduct any expenses. If you do itemize, then your expenses cannot exceed your hobby income (line 21). Your expenses are then reduced by an amount equal to 2% of your AGI.
The only legal way to avoid paying tax on either hobby or business income is to have total income lower than the filing requirement.
The IRS may never find out about your income but failure to report it is a moral issue. Basically, if you don't pay then the rest of us have to pay more.
One bright spot. Someone posted earlier that they paid an entry fee to a fair and played for free. If the fair is run by a government agency or a 501c charity then the admission fee and any expenses related to the performance are deductible as cash charitable contributions on Schedule A (assuming you itemize). Just have good records of your expenses. You cannot deduct the value of your time to play or any lost revenue from not playing elsewhere.
chuck in ny
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michael johnathon on folk singing. 'you can make tens of dollars doing this'.
what can you say, day job.
what can you say, day job.
lindydanny
Well-known member
Since when are the words art and craft so separate? This is semantics at it's lowest form.
As a professional musician I am constantly improving my craft. And I don't think of it as art v. craft. The art is in the crafting. You get better at crafting in such a way that produces better art. Most folks in the music industry that I talk to use the term "craft" over "art". I cook too (not professionally) and I would easily attribute the action of cooking as crafting and the product (the meal) being art.
I've seen a lot of "artists" say this. Artists who make a living realize that selling is a part of the business. It's fine for you to be an artist that doesn't sell, but you will need a day job and you will not get the same praise for your craft as those of us who do.
coolkayaker1
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I thought "art" was exclusively a paint brush and a canvas.
OP
OP
Rllink
Well-known member
There is a young guy who is at the farmer's market all the time. I'm not sure if he is paid to be there and what gets thrown in the guitar case is tips, or if he pays to be there, or if he just sets up shop on the corner. I know that he also plays in a pretty popular local band and they get booked a lot around here. But I've talked to him before and told him that I admire his ability to put it all on the line like that and that my goal with the ukulele is to do exactly that. He told me a couple of weeks ago that if I set up, he will be the first one to throw a dollar in my case. I'm not there yet, but the seed is planted, and I think that I will do it eventually. I'm really thinking about the San Sebastian Festival in San Juan. It is right outside my door, so I can just walk out, find a spot, and go for it.
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Very cool.
Your signature statement "When I get famous, everyone is going to want to be playing a Makala" might just become a reality. When you do become famous will you sign my lowly Koaloha for me
Ukejenny
Well-known member
We all have our own views of what is and isn't art, who is and isn't an artist, our own views on everything (busking/begging...) Music, art, so much of it is very personal. It truly is in the eye of the beholder.
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