Painful ukulele experience on Molokai

coolkayaker1 said:

It could have been handled better by those wise "elders" at the gathering. I see no way that it could have been better handled by Ryan.

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With all due respect to tne OP, there's always another side to a story, and it's darned difficult to be 100% objective when you are in the middle of it all. What was said, how it was said, with what inflection, coupled with anticipation, excitement and disappointment make for misunderstanding by all.

Have seen dozens of comparable "closed society" functions ranging from religious discussions, fraternal organization meetings, civil discourse discussions and the like where a stranger (e.g., outsider) walks in, expecting to be warmly greeted only to have a "sergeant of arms" equivalent at the front door tell the stranger the event is not meant t be open to the general public and there are formal protocols in place. This doesn't sound like anything different, except some ukuleles were involved.

What happened to the OP happens every day when strangers, especially tourists, go somewhere expecting warm, open greetings and instead get the cold shoulder. While it may have been nice if the stranger gets a pleasant and stranger-centered detailed explanation concerning the event, its real purpose, the protocols, why the protocols exist and what going to occur, the reality is the sergeant-at-arms person never does that. At some point, the stranger needs to stop and say,"Oops, this is not what I expected" and exit, stage left.

What has expanded this into something more significant are two things: tourism and ukuleles. Tourists out of their element have expectations which are often inaccurate, and enjoying ukuleles (or anything else) does not invoke instant brotherhood in every circumstance.

I spent a large chunk of my life living in Metropolitan Orlando - a major tourist destination. Once in a while out-of-town/state/country tourists would show up at various social activities with the expectation that as tourists the locals would be happy to have them at the event, and would drop everything and involve them in the middle of stuff as honored guests. The reactions when that didn't happen ranged from the tourist realizing that not everything in Orlando was tourist-centric and bowing out gracefully to ranting, raving and generally boorish behavior. The bottom line is that the tourist bears some responsibility when in a strange locale to learn before doing, and when things don't appear as expected, then to adapt to the situation as opposed to the situation adapting to the tourist.

It all goes back to "when in Rome, do as......" as opposed to expecting the locals to change things just because a tourist stopped by.

Went to a Kuana Torres Kahele Kanikapila (that's what it said on the flyer) last Saturday in Encinitas, California. After talking with several local musicians, we decided to leave our instruments in our cars and check it out, first. Wise we were. It was not traditional kanikapila, but a great performance with lots of local hula dancers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl9IlfFa_Qw

This is an Elder's event sponsored by the hotel:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/19/travel/la-tr-molokai-20130324

"To keep alive the songs of Hawaii's past, Hotel Molokai invited kupuna to sing and dance together on a regular basis, offering them free food and drink. Now these elders are known all over the islands."

Traditional olelo Hawai'i kanikapila is slowly fading away with the youth of Hawai'i and being replaced with Jawaiian. I feel bad for Ryan, as he had no ill intent. When I hit the beach with my 'ukulele or guitar, I start playing and singing. Eventually, others join to sing and dance. Ric

coolkayaker1 said:

Pueo, although you (and a few others) may have an explanation for why Ryan got the reaction that he did, there is still no earthly explanation for how he was treated. Elders, hogwash. No one has given one iota to explain how he was treated; his treatment was, in any land, in any place, wrong. An explanation, helping him understand what we think we understand here, pulling him aside and discussing this with him one-on-one, etc., all reasonable. The way it was handled: unreasonable.

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It might come down to one thing--local culture... There are many different types of cultures across this world of ours. What is right as rain to some is utterly wrong to others.

Small example (off the beaten path, but still an example): I, in my profession, when at my desk, put my feet up on it between rounds. Now, I have some clients that consider looking at the bottom of someone's shoes as a grave insult. Did I know that I was insulting them? No, but they take it that way regardless. And they KNOW they are in a different culture than where they came from, and that many things are going to be different. In essence, they try to force their culture, and what would insult them upon me, even though that no one from my own country/culture would even think of getting offended at seeing my feet propped up on my desk.

The few are wanting to change the many in this case, because trust me, where I work, we are a foot-propping-up bunch (at least when we get to sit down). We've been told by higher ups to respect these other cultures, but I can tell you right now, I'm NOT going to change my ways just to placate one or two people that I don't see very often.

Am I unreasonable here?

And does this make any sense at all??

coolkayaker1 said:

Pueo, although you (and a few others) may have an explanation for why Ryan got the reaction that he did, there is still no earthly explanation for how he was treated. Elders, hogwash. No one has given one iota to explain how he was treated; his treatment was, in any land, in any place, wrong. An explanation, helping him understand what we think we understand here, pulling him aside and discussing this with him one-on-one, etc., all reasonable. The way it was handled: unreasonable.

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come on Cool..how long is thread going on already...maybe if you come on time you can find out what is going on...but come half way through the session....in life this not cool....not only in the ukulele world....

Can we stop now? I'm the OP, and I never should have gone to the jam, or started this thread. I can't come to UU anymore without seeing this darn thread at the top.

It's getting painful....I screwed up, that has been clearly established. I'm the stupid tourist, and even dumber for posting about it. I guess this is what I get for opening the thread. I'm off to learn John Mayer's "My Stupid Mouth".

I hope I haven't come off as calling you stupid. Obviously, you're no such thing! I did recognize some dynamics that no tourist can reasonably be expected to "just know," and pointed them out in an effort to shed some light on the situation -- without excusing the rudeness you encountered.

To go further, I appreciate the candor you've shown, and the grace with which you accepted a bad situation.

Coincidentally, there's a local kani ka pila coming up this month. I have been told that it's open, and all players and levels are welcome. We're in California, but even here "kani ka pila" can mean many things besides the literal "let's play music." For me, this was a much-needed reminder to go lightly. Many thanks!

RyanMFT said:

Can we stop now? I'm the OP, and I never should have gone to the jam, or started this thread. I can't come to UU anymore without seeing this darn thread at the top.

It's getting painful....I screwed up, that has been clearly established. I'm the stupid tourist, and even dumber for posting about it. I guess this is what I get for opening the thread. I'm off to learn John Mayer's "My Stupid Mouth".

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I'll stop right after I say this...

Seeing your thread 'at the top' means it has generated great interest. There's a lot of people that are on your side here. Even though I've posted why they may have treated you the way they did, in no way means that I think you are wrong for feeling how you do. If nothing else, you've given other people a heads-up as to what they may or may not expect in a similar situation on Molokai. It may just depend on the group that you drop in on. Or it may not.

I truly want to go to Molokai one day myself. The ohana from KoAloha Ukulele goes there at least once, sometimes twice a year to build ukes with school children. Most of these kids are from families so poor that they can't even afford to buy a uke. With a little sweat equity, they get to own a K brand. I want to go with the folks from KoAloha to one of these builds, if nothing else, to do grunt work packing things back and forth for the crew.

Aloha Ryan....
so sorry this happened to you...it's shameful that happened to you and what has happened here.....you talk about bad aloha, and look at what this has turned into...
.... if you see bad, does that give you the right to be judgemental and act the same even if you really dont know the actual facts...sheesh no wonder I no come here no more
darn disgraceful
Hey Ryan, tell the mods to shut this thread already...

Stan, my friend, I don't really get the impression that anybody is being judgmental of Ryan. Most posts appear to attempt to put the events in some type of context - admittedly, with minimal facts.

I believe that this has been a good discussion with plenty of decent advice for members who may find themselves as a ukulele "stranger in a strange land," wishing to join in with an unfamiliar group.

I think that there is a broader discussion to be had (within its own thread) regarding the general expectation of every ukulele player being filled with the Aloha Spirit. THAT would be an interesting thread.

In short, Ryan, don't feel that people are judging you at all. You were the victim of a misunderstanding, plain and simple.

Aloha Wicked..
this is not about Ryan, I was not talking about him......I talking about the negative responses and comments on hawaii and what happened...
if you dont want to come to hawaii, dont from one response . how can one put things in context with minimum facts, and just assume? what is the sense?
You have a good idea, many ukers have the aloha spirit....just some bad grapes I suppose

This is a meaningful and educational thread. It's had over three-thousand views in seventy-two hours! My ukulele marketplace listing has 90 views in as much time. lol There's something about seeing ourselves in everyman Ryan's pain at the sinister hands of the provincial-thinking elders of Molokai'i that makes for more intrigue than a Michael Crichton thriller. "Congo" meets "Rising Sun" meets "State of Fear".

Glad your home and safe, Ryan. Another day in the welcoming warmth of "paradise" and who knows your state of mind! lol

Steve My friend....come on you really believe that...meaningful and educational thread...???? and trash hawaii and it's people without all the facts and assume at what cost
shall I trash your state when I have the oppertunity....let me think...NO More people are looking at this thread not for the purposes you think my friend...they like the controversy between
comments I believe, Like what makes howard stern... seeing ryans pain or creating more pain at someones elses cost? I think you are off on this one Steve ... aole pilikia

Stan, I learned what a kani ka pila is; that Molokai'i is a pretty island (and we all pray that Larry Ellison will leave it alone); that one cannot trust when people tell them "Oh, yeah, it's an open uke jam! Go over there, second door on the left, just go inside, it's good!"; that some human beings want respect, but give little in return; that Ryan is as kind-hearted a person as I thought him to be. So, yeah, I learned quite a bit.

You could be right, Stan, about the reason people look at this thread. But, eyeballs are eyeballs in the internet world; a good kind of traffic for websites.

Chicago, and it's people, are generally corrupt, lousy rats. There--I saved you the trouble, my friend.

Steve have you heard what monsanto did to molokai....bought 2000 acres and started to grow genetic altered crops that makes the people sick there....
I think the people there are cautious now and may distance themselves...esp the kanaka maioli
Yes I know ryan good and he is a good friend and a kind hearted person...sometimes people need to see the others side point of view too...
http://themindunleashed.org/2014/09/monsanto-annihilated-paradise-turned-island-death.html

mm stan said:

Steve My friend....come on you really believe that...meaningful and educational thread...???? and trash hawaii and it's people without all the facts and assume at what cost
shall I trash your state when I have the oppertunity....let me think...NO More people are looking at this thread not for the purposes you think my friend...they like the controversy between
comments I believe, Like what makes howard stern... seeing ryans pain or creating more pain at someones elses cost? I think you are off on this one Steve ... aole pilikia

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I saw one person outright say they wouldn't go to Hawai'i as a result of this thread, and people were fairly quick to point out that was a silly stance to take. I've seen many more people be supportive of Ryan, but also try and play devil's advocate. There's good and bad in everything Stan and it's worth pointing out every once in a while.

I went to Maui once when I was a kid, part of a big business vacation thing from my dad's company, something I was very fortunate to have the chance to do and it's a beautiful part of the word. But that doesn't mean absolutely everyone in Hawai'i or every ukulele player has to be the most welcoming person in the world. Ryan just got unlucky on this occasion.

N.B. This entire post has been weird for me because my name's also Ryan, and it's felt like I've been speaking in the third person the whole time.

Hi everyone! I've been following and thinking about this thread for a while now and am amazed to see that the social conventions for approaching a new group haven't changed and are basically the same from the dawn on time to the present. When approaching a new group we all in some way according to our background announce ourselves expecting some kind of invitation to approach closer and if we "pass the test" to join in. Even when entering our own homes we announce ourselves, "hi honey, I'm home" or something to that effect. Standing on the sidewalk my buddy driving by will honk and wave. Personally, if a stranger honks at me and makes deliberate eye contact, I get a little intimidated. But that's mostly because I don't recognize the stranger and culturally direct eye contact is aggressive behavior to me.

Lucky for me some people I worked with when I moved to New England commented about my reluctance to make eye contact. It really helped my career when I learned that in Western society making direct eye contact sends the message that you are trustworthy and are a "regular guy".

Some of the UU members here may be aware that in Hawaii direct and prolonged eye contact may be perceived as aggressive and disrespectful behavior. The people in the Molokai group may have been trying to help you understand that by verbalizing what they were seeing in your non-verbal behavior just like my friends did for me on the job in NE.

kkimura's post reminded me of a friend of mine. He is a professor, and stayed for two years to teach in Chicago and central Illinois, before returning to Turkey, his home country. He said: "America is the only country to which I have travelled where two people can be walking toward one another, all alone on the sidewalk as if only they existed in the world, and pass without saying 'hello'."

RAB11 said:

I saw one person outright say they wouldn't go to Hawai'i as a result of this thread, and people were fairly quick to point out that was a silly stance to take. I've seen many more people be supportive of Ryan, but also try and play devil's advocate. There's good and bad in everything Stan and it's worth pointing out every once in a while.

I went to Maui once when I was a kid, part of a big business vacation thing from my dad's company, something I was very fortunate to have the chance to do and it's a beautiful part of the word. But that doesn't mean absolutely everyone in Hawai'i or every ukulele player has to be the most welcoming person in the world. Ryan just got unlucky on this occasion.

N.B. This entire post has been weird for me because my name's also Ryan, and it's felt like I've been speaking in the third person the whole time.

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Aloha Rab11,
Yes I think Ryan may Have been unlucky or aware of the local customs we have here....he is a real nice guy I know.... While these discussions are generally not very
productive or educational, I see no pupose in them aside from being hurtful to carry on for the sole purpose of others to justify and assume... if you have something
factual and positive to say that would help, but to be on the soapbox and make statements without facts for your own self image and wittyness is un needed..
You are right, everywhere you go, there is a bad element or group of people....no need to trash hawaii, that is all I am saying... this is my home and I have big feeling here
PS I do Like your signature....

RyanMFT said:

Can we stop now? I'm the OP, and I never should have gone to the jam, or started this thread. I can't come to UU anymore without seeing this darn thread at the top.

It's getting painful....I screwed up, that has been clearly established. I'm the stupid tourist, and even dumber for posting about it. I guess this is what I get for opening the thread. I'm off to learn John Mayer's "My Stupid Mouth".

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Whatever you think of this thread - or the underlying incident - the OP wants it to end so I am closing it down guys.