Timbuck
Well-known member
The Martin S-0 soprano made in Mexico has a biscuit joint neck ...but I think they stopped production of this model.
10 things I think you should know :)
- Thread starter Pete Howlett
- Start date
Neck joints
DPO, I did not ask which form of joint you prefer to use. Personally, I do not like using steel bolts, nuts and washers on a very lightweight wooden structure. It offends my aesthetic sensibilities.
Prof Chris suggested that a butt joint and dowel might not be good enough for a ukulele neck joint. That surprised me. I would maintain that a well fitted butt/dowel IS good enough. Not the best or most elegant method, perhaps, but not lacking in strength or likely length of service.
DPO, I did not ask which form of joint you prefer to use. Personally, I do not like using steel bolts, nuts and washers on a very lightweight wooden structure. It offends my aesthetic sensibilities.
Prof Chris suggested that a butt joint and dowel might not be good enough for a ukulele neck joint. That surprised me. I would maintain that a well fitted butt/dowel IS good enough. Not the best or most elegant method, perhaps, but not lacking in strength or likely length of service.
Michael N.
Well-known member
Even without the dowel it's probably good enough, if you have the back going over the heel button. Most romantic guitars had the neck set into a very shallow mortice. You might argue that it isn't that much different from a butt joint.
The point is that there are many different types of neck joints and I guess that they are all capable of doing what they set out to do. I personally much prefer plug in necks, be they bolt on or glued. My favourite is the dovetail but that has more to do with the fact that I like executing it with hand tools. I certainly don't claim that it's superior although it's obviously easy to do a neck reset over that of a Spanish heel.
The bolt on neck goes right back to Stauffer, around the 1830's. It was also adopted by some violin/cello makers, although it never gained great acceptance. Even some modern restorers of violins think it should have been much more widespread, especially for cellos. They tend to be a very conservative lot so they obviously see merit in the idea. It's a pretty simple joint, 'works', will never need a neck reset and the action is adjustable in a matter of seconds. There's not a lot to dislike. You can even remove the neck in a matter of a few minutes for travel purposes, although that's obviously not much of a factor when it comes to ukes.
The point is that there are many different types of neck joints and I guess that they are all capable of doing what they set out to do. I personally much prefer plug in necks, be they bolt on or glued. My favourite is the dovetail but that has more to do with the fact that I like executing it with hand tools. I certainly don't claim that it's superior although it's obviously easy to do a neck reset over that of a Spanish heel.
The bolt on neck goes right back to Stauffer, around the 1830's. It was also adopted by some violin/cello makers, although it never gained great acceptance. Even some modern restorers of violins think it should have been much more widespread, especially for cellos. They tend to be a very conservative lot so they obviously see merit in the idea. It's a pretty simple joint, 'works', will never need a neck reset and the action is adjustable in a matter of seconds. There's not a lot to dislike. You can even remove the neck in a matter of a few minutes for travel purposes, although that's obviously not much of a factor when it comes to ukes.
Taking the back over the heel button is structurally excellent - I do it quite a lot. String tension makes the neck a lever, trying to pull the base of the heel away from the body, and this resists that pull at the optimum point.
I suggested the dowel joint might be less than good because I've come across quite a few failures with that joint, and also because repairers tend to curse it as it makes dismantling a partially failed joint more difficult.
As I understand it, the dowel gives you very little long-grain to long-grain glueing surface, particularly if the dowel is a sloppy fit, and it doesn't do anything to hold the base of the heel against the body, which is where most separations start.
I have no practical experience with dowels, which is why I wrote "perhaps". But if the dowel isn't adding anything useful to the joint, why go to the trouble of including it?
I suggested the dowel joint might be less than good because I've come across quite a few failures with that joint, and also because repairers tend to curse it as it makes dismantling a partially failed joint more difficult.
As I understand it, the dowel gives you very little long-grain to long-grain glueing surface, particularly if the dowel is a sloppy fit, and it doesn't do anything to hold the base of the heel against the body, which is where most separations start.
I have no practical experience with dowels, which is why I wrote "perhaps". But if the dowel isn't adding anything useful to the joint, why go to the trouble of including it?
Sorry, it wasn't my intent to derail the thread, and at the risk of extending that derailment even further, I have looked at all the joints that I could do.
My specific challenge is more that I have very poorly executed a mortice in the body of the ukulele I am building. I had selected a mortice and tenon joint with a single bolt. Unfortunately, my mortice is awful so now I need to figure out how to recover from that. The way I see it now, I can either ... 1.) abandon this body and chalk it up to a learning experience, or 2.) deepen and widen the mortice to clean it up and risk weakening the neck block inside the body. I'm leaning towards the later and then want to figure out a better way of creating the mortice. I built a mortice and tenon jig - using LMI m&t templates for the joint and now am trying to figure out how to make the positioning of the instruments accurate and repeatable. The jig is really sized for guitars so it doesn't work spectacularly well for ukuleles.
Thanks for all the advice on neck joints! I think I will (after cleaning up the first mess) try to improve on that Mortice and Tenon joint first, and then try another after (perhaps dovetail or spanish heel).
My specific challenge is more that I have very poorly executed a mortice in the body of the ukulele I am building. I had selected a mortice and tenon joint with a single bolt. Unfortunately, my mortice is awful so now I need to figure out how to recover from that. The way I see it now, I can either ... 1.) abandon this body and chalk it up to a learning experience, or 2.) deepen and widen the mortice to clean it up and risk weakening the neck block inside the body. I'm leaning towards the later and then want to figure out a better way of creating the mortice. I built a mortice and tenon jig - using LMI m&t templates for the joint and now am trying to figure out how to make the positioning of the instruments accurate and repeatable. The jig is really sized for guitars so it doesn't work spectacularly well for ukuleles.
Thanks for all the advice on neck joints! I think I will (after cleaning up the first mess) try to improve on that Mortice and Tenon joint first, and then try another after (perhaps dovetail or spanish heel).
Last edited:
Just clean up the sides of your mortice and glue on some shims of thin wood to bring it back to size. Then gently pare back the excess until your tenon fits.
This, of course, assumes you have left at least *some* wood in the neck block
This, of course, assumes you have left at least *some* wood in the neck block
Pleasure Paul
Well-known member
Pete Howlett:
[5]Copying classic designs is a good idea
[6]Copying contemporary makers' work is at best plagiarism, in reality, theft
Re 5: when you start marketing seriously, it's perhaps different. When I look at some Kiwayas, I feel like it's a Martin rip off. When I look at a Collings guitar, I often feel the same. You may call a Martin design 'a classic design', but it's still their design.
[5]Copying classic designs is a good idea
[6]Copying contemporary makers' work is at best plagiarism, in reality, theft
Re 5: when you start marketing seriously, it's perhaps different. When I look at some Kiwayas, I feel like it's a Martin rip off. When I look at a Collings guitar, I often feel the same. You may call a Martin design 'a classic design', but it's still their design.
OP
OP
Pete Howlett
Well-known member
When I wrote this there was a serious problem with some newly emerging companies ripping off inlay designs by individual makers. It further transpired that some amateur builders were doing the same. I still stand by what I said - a classic design is usually a 'developed' idea that has multiple sources at its roots. Contemporary work is different and there are many more builders now refining and redefining these classic shapes and making them their own. Several of my contemporaries come to mind, I'll not name them, but if someone started to copy their designs (and it was me) and marketed them as their own (and this is the central point of my thesis) I'd be a bit miffed.
If you look at Martin designs in their context, they were not unique. Neither were Gibsons or Larsons or the huge catalogue of Lyon and Healey works which included, suprsingly enough, a dreadnought to equal any Martin could make. Martin copied Nunes/Kumalae, refining the design to what we now consider the classic soprano shape. The Kamaka tenor owes its early form to the Gibson tenor which pre-dates it. Nothing is original in terms of shape and we all 'own' it as it were. Where we significantly depart from them, or add highly personal inlay work or develop some innovation like the Kamaka pineapple (this was a patented design so the originator wanted to 'keep it' ) then we have a real right to 'own' it and protect it.
I have an interesting design that I developed from the Flea. I asked said company if I could use their idea and they kindly agreed. It's not original and its not new and has not been hi-jacked by any of the mass producers. I sell quite a few of them and they are fun and simple to make. When asked, I make no hesitation when referenciing the inspiration for them because I am truly thankful. 4 years ago when I launched them after a long periodof depression and inability t complete work on time, I sold 24 in a vey short space of time staving off the cancellation of my overdraft facility and putting my business back into much needed credit. I used up all my mis-matched koa parts and have continued success - all because I was given permission to use an idea. And this is important! If you feel inspired by what someome else is doing and you want to try it, ask. It is my experience, as long as you are not copying art work or some great innovation (and I do not include side ports or armbevels inthis), that you will be graciously granted your wish
If you look at Martin designs in their context, they were not unique. Neither were Gibsons or Larsons or the huge catalogue of Lyon and Healey works which included, suprsingly enough, a dreadnought to equal any Martin could make. Martin copied Nunes/Kumalae, refining the design to what we now consider the classic soprano shape. The Kamaka tenor owes its early form to the Gibson tenor which pre-dates it. Nothing is original in terms of shape and we all 'own' it as it were. Where we significantly depart from them, or add highly personal inlay work or develop some innovation like the Kamaka pineapple (this was a patented design so the originator wanted to 'keep it' ) then we have a real right to 'own' it and protect it.
I have an interesting design that I developed from the Flea. I asked said company if I could use their idea and they kindly agreed. It's not original and its not new and has not been hi-jacked by any of the mass producers. I sell quite a few of them and they are fun and simple to make. When asked, I make no hesitation when referenciing the inspiration for them because I am truly thankful. 4 years ago when I launched them after a long periodof depression and inability t complete work on time, I sold 24 in a vey short space of time staving off the cancellation of my overdraft facility and putting my business back into much needed credit. I used up all my mis-matched koa parts and have continued success - all because I was given permission to use an idea. And this is important! If you feel inspired by what someome else is doing and you want to try it, ask. It is my experience, as long as you are not copying art work or some great innovation (and I do not include side ports or armbevels inthis), that you will be graciously granted your wish
