Outside of the box

So, since Beau and I are derailing a thread, I thought I'd just start a new one.

Background: we've be in some discussion on building techniques, which we've been stealing off each other (thanks to his awesome vids). Of course, this is nothing new, with Pete's vids, and Chuck's commentary, Rick's input, et al.

In this thread, I plan on taking pics of my oft questioned M&T neck angle jig, and the accompanying jigs as well. I call this outside the box, because I don't think its a normal way to build, and I'm sure others have the same if they care to share.

Current question from Beau in the other thread: Do you butt the end of your fingerboard up against the headstock veneer then have the nut sitting on a half depth step in the end of the fingerboard???- This is beginning to sound like a great idea to me.

Yes. I didn't create this. Since I started playing bass, my Fender MIM PBass has this, and I've seen it before as well. Since I started binding the FB with BWB purfling (v without, as I've usually done it), I actually inset the nut between the binding, but not the purfling. Andrew has a shot of this on one of his old listings http://www.theukulelesite.com/aaron-oya-custom-spruce-maple-tenor.html

With just the binding, I actually did a cutout of the binding, so the nut would be completely seen from the side. I did a few on the inside, but because I beveled the binding at the time, I thought it was a little too thin at the top where the binding met the nut.

Note: because I butt the end to the veneer, and I bind the soundhole end, the 1/8" slot under the fretboard runs end to end. I used to stop before the ends, but not needed since its covered anyway. Much safer to do on the router table.

So, by setting the your (1/8"?) nut between the binding, was your neck at the nut about 4-6mm wider?, assuming you kept the normal string spacing at the nut or did you just have less bone from nut edge to string???

I do 4mm from nut edge to string center.

3/16" nut (I use a Tusq guitar blank) actually got narrowed since I put it between the bindings. Normal string spacing means less material from the edge to the string.

However, once upon a time, I increased the width of my fretboard 1/32" on each side. THEN I added on 1/16" binding outside of the fretwire, so yes, my necks are wider than most (if not all) factory instruments, but the string spacing is the same. Now, I extend the fretwire to the edge over the binding (like you do).

If I did a "normal" width fretboard, I'd do the cutout of the binding, otherwise I think there would be too little material from the edge to the string. Be sure the binding and purfling are glued WELL. Ask me how I know?

I guess this would qualify as an out of the box way to do things, as far as the wider neck. I have a theory - if you play with good technique (like a classical guitarist - and since you're spending over $1K on an instrument I think you should - just like I think I shouldn't have to put a 3rd fret marker) a wider fretboard shouldn't matter. Add in a D shaped neck (which I can make thinner because of the CF), a wider fretboard shouldn't matter. And, it allows pulling of strings without pulling off.

I guess my theory, for me, works. I've had no complaints, so far, about the wide neck. If I did, then I'm not really the builder for them. Of course, I know of a certain factory that changed their neck profile on their customs to one similar to mine (actually, they got theirs to go thinner). Their customers notice the difference, and I heard of at least one that asked for the different profile. This is why when I see discussions about strings spacing in Uke Talk, it sort of just passes me by because that's a variable that can be changed a lot on a wider neck.

Using a guitar saddle as a nut is a good idea. My nuts are usually 4mm- 5mm.

Your CF is 1/8" by 3/8" right?

I use a CF 5mm x 6mm (or sometimes 1/4" x1/4") but id like to do 3/8 x 3/8 to be about to get a super thin neck without the worry. Actually, as the strength of CF is more in the depth of it, not the width, your 1/8 x 3/8" would probably just be as strong.

Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:

Using a guitar saddle as a nut is a good idea. My nuts are usually 4mm- 5mm.

Your CF is 1/8" by 3/8" right?

I use a CF 5mm x 6mm (or sometimes 1/4" x1/4") but id like to do 3/8 x 3/8 to be about to get a super thin neck without the worry. Actually, as the strength of CF is more in the depth of it, not the width, your 1/8 x 3/8" would probably just be as strong.

Click to expand...

I actually use a guitar nut blank, only because my teacher used 3/16. I like it because it gives a little more heft towards the edges, and I've never had an issue with the nut cracking (did I say that?) vs. 1/8" nuts.

I've used the StewMac .200 in the past (in fact, used my last piece last week to reinforce my son's OC Paddle. I didn't want to be "locked in" to their router bit. So yes, it's now 1/8" x 3/8". From a hand flex perspective, its just as stiff as the wider StewMac. Totally unscientific.

Once, I actually sanded through to the CF (the current ones). This is what made me install it a little shallower, read: proud of the neck. And then I thought, why should I sand it back down? Just leave it there and run a slot in the bottom of the fretboard. There's your story of how that started. From a mistake. . .

I think 1/4" x 3/8" would work well for you, especially if you ever build a M&T neck angle jig - you could use it to line up guitar necks as well (aren't guitar truss rods 1/4"). I'd just use an adapter (1/8" to 1/4") for a guitar neck. Yes, I built my jig big enough for guitars.

Why do I use 1/8"? Because its cheaper, and it works. And I'd rather run a small 1/8" slot in the bottom of the fretboard.

Been a little busy. Here's a pic of my basses; custom on the left, Fender on the right. These show the nut "full width" of the fretboard. My custom has my "old style" binding on (with no purfling).


And here's how it translates to `ukulele with a bound fretboard.

There was conversation recently on saddles, compensation, and angles.

Here's what I mean when I angle it back 7 degrees. Created by Rick Turner (as I understand), and printed in an advanced installation technique by Fishman, for pickup installations. All of my instruments have this, for reasons other than just pickups.


For compensation, a 1/8" saddle will take care of A to low g on a tenor. Sort of difficult to see, but if you look at the edges, you can see the peak on the 1st string is opposite of the peak on the 4th string. Not so out of the box, but also not so common on production instruments.

I've been building with the same tipped back saddle for over 7 years now as well. And yes, there are all kinds of reasons to do this.

It's one of those "little things" in building that turns out to be a really big thing.

Allen said:

It's one of those "little things" in building that turns out to be a really big thing.

Click to expand...

I think that should be a subtitle to this thread. As I think about it, I realize the "little things" that turn out big, is the stuff you don't see in plans, or basic instruction/construction.

As suggested at the start of this thread, here's a quick pick of my Mortise & Tenon neck angle jig.
Note: Initially, I was going to make it really simple and leave out the "angle" part of the jig. I'm glad I didn't.
And, I think I made it big enough to fit guitar necks, though the body may be tight, or it won't fit at all. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it - the mortise is easier to jig up than the tenon, imo.

How to cut a side profile (linked from side cutting sled thread). Not for the meek.
http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?105120-side-trimming-sled

Back to the neck angle jig. I don't use it often since its only one step in the process (okay, 2 steps), but I used it today. Starting with the Tenon on the neck, you can see where the 1/8" slot in put in the neck for the Carbon Fiber rod is used to line up for this jig.


Of course, I actually have the inserts installed, so this is a mock-up, but you get the idea.

Because this is not just a tenon cutting jig, but a "neck angle jig", this is where to set that angle, with the body on top.



And you can see my high tech knob and bolt assembly, including high speed bearings (because I adjust it so fast. . . )


And may as well show the mortise end as well. Again with high tech knob assembly. The cradle in the back that squeezes the body to hold it is not only concave to match the radius, but is also lined with cork. By the way, laser cut templates are courtesy of some guy in Kalihi, runs an `ukulele factory. But the factory is moving, so they won't be in Kalihi for much longer.

Many ways to cut binding ledges, here's mine. I made it like this to specifically address my intent to retain the DeWalt bearing foot, which allows me infinite adjustments for the binding, although I only use it in two positions (I should actually build another one, which I may in the future).

Also, its made with scrap Baltic Birch ply, so most of the pieces came from offcuts. Function before form certainly applies here.


Here's what the bearing foot looks like - I modified it for a skateboard bearing with another bearing spaced out to do it horizontally, like Taylor does it, but I like this way much better.


This is obviously mocked up, but you get the gist of where the bearing rides, where the top contacts, and where the bit cuts.


The cradle is very simple, with 3 posts glued snug, and one that has a small piece of wood clamped to keep it tight. This is where its nice to have the parallelogram type of jig to extend the laminate trimmer out to clear the clamp as it comes around (I could affix a screw, but its good and easy as it). I have a small 1/2" spacer under the upper bout, concaved to match the radius for when the top is being cut (hard to see in this pic).


Sorry, duplicate pic below. Not sure how to delete it.

Since I did some binding today, without getting into the taping details, which I use MUCH less now, you can tell by the pics how its done. Admittedly, if I didn't have kids and they didn't have bikes, I'm not sure I would've actually gone out and bought this. I would've probably bought rope at some point, but now, I'd actually buy tubes when these are no longer serviceable.

Jig master- i laughed when i saw your 45 degree reinforcements cut like steps as thats exactly what i did!

Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:

Jig master- i laughed when i saw your 45 degree reinforcements cut like steps as thats exactly what i did!

Click to expand...

Pure woodworking technique. I actually had those as clamping jigs when I built my bass and PA cabs.

I bet if we spent a session together just going through our processes, they'd be similar enough that we'd steal tips and add them to our own style, without having to implement a completely different change.

Not to rain on you guys parade but there is a commercial jig made for doing tenon, dovetail, floating tenon, and several other styles in addition to allowing for neck angle.... it's pricey but excellent quality and it will work for a multitude of instruments with guitar-ukulele style necks.... we've probably cut several thousand necks with the jigs...... usually about a 5 minute process. We typically would do dovetail but tenon is as simple.....( maybe a little slower because you have to tap the necks for brass insert and insert them prior to cutting the tenon is the easiest and least destructive method...)

http://www.luthiertool.com/page76.html

Including some pictures one shows one of our employee's with a guitar box setup to get the neck angle correct for the top.... the other shows my son Jon cutting a ukulele dovetail on a neck. Angle cheeks are easy to do by hand for the rounded body shapes on the ukulele but it can also be accomplished in the jig....

Blessings,

Kevin

$749 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

15 instruments...... or necks = $50 per .......30 units = $25...... doesn't take long to pay for the investment if your doing this regular enough to merit the jig...... As I said takes very little time and takes a difficult part of the build and makes it simple. The jig also allows for center line layout corrections.

One could also use a plywood jig produced by John Simpson..... templates could be made to fit the ukulele....... jig is good but not in the same league as the all metal jig.... by LT but it does work well.

http://www.jsimpsonguitars.com/jigs/neckjig/neckjig5.html

We've stopped making everything excepting acrylic templates....... we averaged about 4 ukulele neck sells a week either through necks alone or kits..... if you have a desire to offer a good quality neck there is a market....

Blessings,

Kevin

If I were building full time, I'd find a need for the LT metal jig - that thing is bad ass. For me, and most of the guys here I would presume, it'd be a long time before ROI would be gained. Of course, this is me being a hypocrite - just dumped $760 on a Fuji Minimite 4.

After all, in the end, those with the most tools. . . wins!

Either way, M&T and/or Dovetail joints have not been as prevalent in `ukulele building as much as they are in guitars, by my best guesstimation. For me, it completely changes the way my instrument comes together, if only because I've built a bunch of my jigs around the "centerline" concept (being redundant of course).

At this point, and I may be wrong, but I think M&T's qualify for "out of the box" in this forum (not so at OLF of course), even though Ken is the dovetail king. . .

And thanks Kevin, for linking LT, just in case someone here reading this thread can gain something from there, if not the neck jig, maybe the self aligning binding jig - neat stuff.