self-deprecation

janeray1940 said:

I'm not saying anything is wrong with it - or with the shirt. I'm just sort of... baffled.

It's not uncommon, as others have said, to hear a uke player apologize for their sh*tty playing before they start... or for a uke group member to say something like "I'm going to be terrible since I didn't practice" when everyone knows they're not a terrible player under any circumstances. I'm constantly puzzled by good players who present themselves as less than that. I'm not talking about virtuosos; I just mean good solid everyday players who don't give themselves their fair due, that's all.

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I referred back to the shirt because it's mentioned in the first post. I love the shirt. I may get one. The shirt isn't an apology. BUT since it baffles you that decent musicians feel compelled to apologize, maybe I can offer some insight from my own experience. I am not sure if I have ever actually apologized but I have felt compelled to when I feel vulnerable. It's not true self-deprecation. It's vulnerability. Some musicians literally feel NAKED when they play for other people. It's like stage fright. Music comes from a deep place inside, and people judge it. Some people are mean. But even when people are supportive, it's still draws a reaction. Music triggers a reaction in us. It's suppose to. Some music is soothing, some is energized, some is somber... Music always triggers a mood or reaction within in us, even if it's a simple like or dislike. Some musicians thrive on that. Other musicians don't like it at all. Most musicians I know, even the ones with egos the size of Texas, will say they feel naked on stage. They are bearing their soul to the world. People have different views about their own "nakedness." Some feel like apologizing.

D3B7 said:

I referred back to the shirt because it's mentioned in the first post. I love the shirt. I may get one. The shirt isn't an apology. BUT since it baffles you that decent musicians feel compelled to apologize, maybe I can offer some insight from my own experience. I am not sure if I have ever actually apologized but I have felt compelled to when I feel vulnerable. It's not true self-deprecation. It's vulnerability. Some musicians literally feel NAKED when they play for other people. It's like stage fright. Music comes from a deep place inside, and people judge it. Some people are mean. But even when people are supportive, it's still draws a reaction. Music triggers a reaction in us. It's suppose to. Some music is soothing, some is energized, some is somber... Music always triggers a mood or reaction within in us, even if it's a simple like or dislike. Some musicians thrive on that. Other musicians don't like it at all. Most musicians I know, even the ones with egos the size of Texas, will say they feel naked on stage. They are bearing their soul to the world. People have different views about their own "nakedness." Some feel like apologizing.

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I get the vulnerability thing - I feel it too, of course. But what I don't get is that I've never heard a guitarist, or bass player, or drummer apologize in advance or make excuses for their "poor" playing - just uke players.

I am around a fair number of musicians of all types, but I am definitely around more uke players than anything else. So that may be part of it; just numbers. That, plus the fact that most uke players I know are somewhat recent to it, but most other musicians I know have been doing what they're doing since they were kids and have had time to build up some self-confidence regardless of how vulnerable they may feel.

janeray1940 said:

I'm not saying anything is wrong with it - or with the shirt. I'm just sort of... baffled.

It's not uncommon, as others have said, to hear a uke player apologize for their sh*tty playing before they start... or for a uke group member to say something like "I'm going to be terrible since I didn't practice" when everyone knows they're not a terrible player under any circumstances. I'm constantly puzzled by good players who present themselves as less than that. I'm not talking about virtuosos; I just mean good solid everyday players who don't give themselves their fair due, that's all.

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I have seen guitarists and singers apologize in advance. I also know some that must get intoxicated to get on stage. Liquid courage. It's all very common. Not just with uke players.

janeray1940 said:

I'm not saying anything is wrong with it - or with the shirt. I'm just sort of... baffled.

It's not uncommon, as others have said, to hear a uke player apologize for their sh*tty playing before they start... or for a uke group member to say something like "I'm going to be terrible since I didn't practice" when everyone knows they're not a terrible player under any circumstances. I'm constantly puzzled by good players who present themselves as less than that. I'm not talking about virtuosos; I just mean good solid everyday players who don't give themselves their fair due, that's all.

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Personally that drives me up a wall. If you feel the need to apologize before you start, then stay off the stage. I don't care if you are talented or not, preemptive apologies are lame.

hoosierhiver said:

Personally that drives me up a wall. If you feel the need to apologize before you start, then stay off the stage. I don't care if you are talented or not, preemptive apologies are lame.

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A good deal of playing doesn't involve a stage. While I do play in a band (and never apologize before we play on stage!), a good deal of the playing I do is social, in clubs and song circles and the like. It brings all types and all level of player, from rank beginners to pros. A lot of the newer players are intimidated by the more experienced players, which I understand. But the only way you get better is to play, and playing with other people really raises your game. One of the regulars at our acoustic jam group is as fine a player as I've ever heard-- a skilled multi-instrumentalist. Rather than use his ability to show off how good he is, he spends most of his time mentoring the newer players and building their confidence. That's the kind of modesty I can support and serves as a role model to the rest of us.

hoosierhiver said:

Personally that drives me up a wall. If you feel the need to apologize before you start, then stay off the stage. I don't care if you are talented or not, preemptive apologies are lame.

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I am weird about apologies. One won't come out of my mouth unless I know I have done something wrong OR if I am worried I have hurt someone's feelings. But I have felt vulnerable.

RichM said:

A good deal of playing doesn't involve a stage. While I do play in a band (and never apologize before we play on stage!), a good deal of the playing I do is social, in clubs and song circles and the like. It brings all types and all level of player, from rank beginners to pros. A lot of the newer players are intimidated by the more experienced players, which I understand. But the only way you get better is to play, and playing with other people really raises your game. One of the regulars at our acoustic jam group is as fine a player as I've ever heard-- a skilled multi-instrumentalist. Rather than use his ability to show off how good he is, he spends most of his time mentoring the newer players and building their confidence. That's the kind of modesty I can support and serves as a role model to the rest of us.

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I think when people avoid playing with others (regardless of skill level), they are really missing out on a lot! Even experienced musicians learn from those they help. It is an opportunity for growth, for everyone involved.

hoosierhiver said:

Personally that drives me up a wall. If you feel the need to apologize before you start, then stay off the stage. I don't care if you are talented or not, preemptive apologies are lame.

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RichM said:

A good deal of playing doesn't involve a stage. While I do play in a band (and never apologize before we play on stage!), a good deal of the playing I do is social, in clubs and song circles and the like. It brings all types and all level of player, from rank beginners to pros. A lot of the newer players are intimidated by the more experienced players, which I understand. But the only way you get better is to play, and playing with other people really raises your game. One of the regulars at our acoustic jam group is as fine a player as I've ever heard-- a skilled multi-instrumentalist. Rather than use his ability to show off how good he is, he spends most of his time mentoring the newer players and building their confidence. That's the kind of modesty I can support and serves as a role model to the rest of us.

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It would drive me crazy if an actual stage was involved too - most of the time when I see this it's in a situation like RichM described, except in my groups there are no rank beginners. So frankly, it seems a little... high-maintenance or something, a cry for attention maybe, when someone apologizes for what they haven't even done yet. I dunno... I'm overthinking as always, probably...

janeray1940 said:

It would drive me crazy if an actual stage was involved too - most of the time when I see this it's in a situation like RichM described, except in my groups there are no rank beginners. So frankly, it seems a little... high-maintenance or something, a cry for attention maybe, when someone apologizes for what they haven't even done yet. I dunno... I'm overthinking as always, probably...

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Just tell them to stop apologizing. It is wasting time.

Has anyone ever had someone tell them they stink? Playing the ukulele that is. I mean, sometimes I get all screwed up and just blow the chord changes, or even forget a chord, and people still come up and tell me how good it was. I've never had anyone tell me I'm terrible.

hoosierhiver said:

Personally that drives me up a wall. If you feel the need to apologize before you start, then stay off the stage. I don't care if you are talented or not, preemptive apologies are lame.

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I used to play in a jazz group with a guitarist, who was an older gentleman. Always apologized before we played, and he was gooooooooooooood; very tasty use of chords, passing tones, and beautiful solos that always were appropriate for the song. One day, before a set when he said something, I stopped him and said "Gary! Even when you're playing wrong, it sounds better than me playing right!" We had a laugh and I never heard him apologize again.

But yeah, don't apologize. We're all at differing levels, so while you think you're having a "bad night," someone listening is being inspired to try a little harder.

The flip side of this discussion is: never miss the opportunity to tell another player he or she is doing well. No need to lie or blow smoke up their skirt; just find the positive. Small praises like "that E chord is really coming along," or "that was a fast tempo and you really kept up" is all that's necessary. And that doesn't exclude experienced players. Everyone likes to hear they're doing well. When I joined my current acoustic jam, I brought my uke, and everyone else was playing guitar. My first thought was, "I'm not going to fit in here." And my experience was the exact opposite-- everyone loved having a different sound in the group and were intrigued to learn about the uke.

When playing socially, it's really important to have empathy-- even if you're confident in your playing, other people are not. When they apologize, what they are more than likely saying is "I don't think I'm very good yet, so let me lower your expectations." Telling them to stop apologizing won't help. Telling them they're doing well--in an honest, non-BS way-- will help to build their confidence and reduce their need to apologize. And yes, this applies to beginners and virtuosos alike. Just because they play better than you doesn't mean they feel confident about their playing.

RichM said:

When playing socially, it's really important to have empathy-- even if you're confident in your playing, other people are not. When they apologize, what they are more than likely saying is "I don't think I'm very good yet, so let me lower your expectations." Telling them to stop apologizing won't help. Telling them they're doing well--in an honest, non-BS way-- will help to build their confidence and reduce their need to apologize. And yes, this applies to beginners and virtuosos alike. Just because they play better than you doesn't mean they feel confident about their playing.

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:agree: RichM, you really hit the nail in the head for me. Empathy is the word that's been drilled in my head in the course of my profession. I am in the medical field, and we (or at least myself) were always taught to strive achieving this. Even experts/virtuosos have their own internal inadequacies, and they deal with it in some form or some ways. As an analogy, even excellent public speakers take beta-blockers prior to their speech. It's inherent in us to use some form of defense mechanism whether it is self-deprecation or apologizing preemptively (though I've not done this myself).

I think this thread is very enlightening to me. I just learned something new to help me in my future performance (with family members only) from one of the PP's - "liquid courage." I may have to do just that (though not to the point of intoxication)