On Debate and Aloha ...

As I understand it, “Aloha,” can mean affection, peace, compassion, mercy, or all of them together. It conveys a kind of laid-back, live-and-let-live attitude, and I like the notion, mostly, most of the time.

Sometimes, however, people here get into a discussion about this or that, there is a clash, and almost immediately, one or both get chided for not showing the aloha spirit.

“Chill, dude, you need to be more aloha.”
“Guy whacks me over the head with a metaphorical nightstick and I need to be more aloha? Really?”

Got into a debate that stretched across a couple of uke threads, the end result of which was that a couple of us aren’t listening to each other any more.

It happens. People with different personalities and opinions don't always agree, and sometimes the disagreements get quite spirited. It's what makes a horse race. (And I confess, sometimes I don't observe the Buddhist notion of Right Speech: 1) Is it true? 2) Is it necessary? 3) Is it kind? I struggle with it, I try, but ...)

I am by training and experience, argumentative. There are varied definitions of that word, not all of them bad. I enjoy a good debate, and if somebody brings evidence or reasoning better than what I got, I have no problem in changing my belief on the matter.

Oh, wow, yeah, you’re right. My mistake.

No shame in ignorance, the world is chock full of stuff about which I don’t know squat. One of the reasons I come here is because there are folks who are experts in the care and feeding of ukuleles, and I want to learn.

It still kind of amazes me that someone will offer something provocative and then be completely surprised when it provokes people. All we have to play with here are words, so choosing them carefully is probably a better way to go than just tossing stuff out willy-nilly.

A hypothetical conversation:

“Hey, if you pay more than ______ (fill in the amount) for a ______(fill in the instrument), you are getting ripped off. Not worth it."
“Yeah? Well, I think you’re wrong.”
“What? How dare you, you doddering old windbag bully!”
“That’s what you got? You're a twerp!”

Yeah, yeah, I admit it, been there, done that, and I should be more aloha, but ...

If you step into the bar and spit into somebody’s beer? You ought to expect an unhappy response. If you were aiming at the spittoon and missed, fine, probably you should explain that. Otherwise, you might wind up wearing that spit and beer.

Aloha ...

Thy problem is this Steve me old fruitbat :


“Hey, if you pay more than ______ (fill in the amount) for a ______(fill in the instrument), you are getting ripped off. Not worth it."
“Yeah? Well, I think you’re wrong.”



Yeah , and if that were how it went, then fine.

But it is then that the person who disagrees (in this case shall we say ...er ...you ) goes on to seemingly lecture , hector and tell the first person that they do not have the right to post their opinion because they are not credible, have no experience or in other ways come across as being a cyber bullying pompous windbag. Because you try to win the point, and often there is nothing to win.

I am NOT having a pop, I am putting to you how the post is sometimes read.

Now, you know better than most that the written word is full of traps and minefields. Some things are "said" probably by both parties and they don't have the vocal inflection or the facial expression that actually lessens the "sting" of the written word . The stupid smilies are equally open to misinterpretation and together with the language used sometimes generate an incorrect or unwanted response:

perhaps

“What? How dare you, you doddering old windbag bully!”
“That’s what you got? You're a twerp!”

And I know that I sometimes say (write ) things that are meant to be humorous, and they backfire and go boobs up. But then ,and this is what really irks me ...I apologise and explain that I did not mean it that way , it was a casual use of banter that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in a pub in England , etc etc.

The response is often this: "Oh yeah, well right , well I know what you meant , I know what you were thinking ,etc .

Well you can do no more than say that is not how you meant it to be taken ,then the red mist descends and then falling out starts.

Which is okay, provided once we have kicked over each others sandcastles we then grin sheepishly ,have a virtual beer and
go on talking ukes . Some do, and we now get on quite well . Some do not and take their beachball away as well as their bucket and spade.
Which I think is a shame .

I have been around ukes a loooooong time ....I should play better than I do , I do not go so much for the stylings of Corey and Shimbakuro and all the other guys in that particular field . I prefer the barky little Sopranos, the BU and am just thinking about a guitarlele for blues .
It took me a while to understand that most on here are perhaps new to the instrument , prefer the more considered and structured stylings and this is where misunderstandings can also happen . Sometimes because you fail to realise that the poster is having difficulty with a chord and you glibly say weli try this as an alternative and it comes across that you are being an ass because you haven't realised that the problem is that the poster is a noob to the uke ...my unintentional bad ..but not deliberate swank.

Anyway ,if you are still awake at the end of this Farewell and Adieu.



PS Somebody might quote this ...cos otherwise Steve won't get to see it ...it is after all my olive branch :music::shaka::music:

I've seen some of the threads where these issues have come up and - for the most part, what is being criticized are opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I for one can't figure out for the life of me why people are so scared of opinions - scared to have them, and scared by those who do have them. It's a UKULELE forum, for goodness sakes; it's not a matter of life and death!

There's a difference between saying "Dude, the uke you bought sucks!" and saying "I think you spent too much money on that uke," for example. If someone told me the former, I'd brush it off with "Fine, think what you want." If someone told me the latter, I'd ask them to explain why.

Bottom line - for the most part, we're just a bunch of strangers with computer keyboard and internet access. People will say/write all sorts of things, including things they wouldn't say in real life. Take it for what it is. If you don't like it, and it's not a personal attack (e.g. "Hey you, your playing sucks!!") better to just let it go rather then get all bent out of shape about it.

As for "aloha" - I get irked by people who have no connection to Hawaii whatsoever tossing that term around, but hey - that's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

janeray1940 said:

I've seen some of the threads where these issues have come up and - for the most part, what is being criticized are opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I for one can't figure out for the life of me why people are so scared of opinions - scared to have them, and scared by those who do have them. It's a UKULELE forum, for goodness sakes; it's not a matter of life and death!

There's a difference between saying "Dude, the uke you bought sucks!" and saying "I think you spent too much money on that uke," for example. If someone told me the former, I'd brush it off with "Fine, think what you want." If someone told me the latter, I'd ask them to explain why.

Bottom line - for the most part, we're just a bunch of strangers with computer keyboard and internet access. People will say/write all sorts of things, including things they wouldn't say in real life. Take it for what it is. If you don't like it, and it's not a personal attack (e.g. "Hey you, your playing sucks!!") better to just let it go rather then get all bent out of shape about it.

As for "aloha" - I get irked by people who have no connection to Hawaii whatsoever tossing that term around, but hey - that's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

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haha, here is one persons definition of Aloha....

http://www.huna.org/html/deeper.html

janeray1940 said:

I've seen some of the threads where these issues have come up and - for the most part, what is being criticized are opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I for one can't figure out for the life of me why people are so scared of opinions - scared to have them, and scared by those who do have them. It's a UKULELE forum, for goodness sakes; it's not a matter of life and death!

There's a difference between saying "Dude, the uke you bought sucks!" and saying "I think you spent too much money on that uke," for example. If someone told me the former, I'd brush it off with "Fine, think what you want." If someone told me the latter, I'd ask them to explain why.

Bottom line - for the most part, we're just a bunch of strangers with computer keyboard and internet access. People will say/write all sorts of things, including things they wouldn't say in real life. Take it for what it is. If you don't like it, and it's not a personal attack (e.g. "Hey you, your playing sucks!!") better to just let it go rather then get all bent out of shape about it.

As for "aloha" - I get irked by people who have no connection to Hawaii whatsoever tossing that term around, but hey - that's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

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Somebody or other famous once said that "opinions were like (...ummm lady present Jarvo) bottoms , everybody has one" .



The "Aloha, Mahalo" thing , Amen to that ...it can be as often described to me as you like...I still don't get it !!!

janeray1940 said:

I've seen some of the threads where these issues have come up and - for the most part, what is being criticized are opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I for one can't figure out for the life of me why people are so scared of opinions - scared to have them, and scared by those who do have them. It's a UKULELE forum, for goodness sakes; it's not a matter of life and death!

There's a difference between saying "Dude, the uke you bought sucks!" and saying "I think you spent too much money on that uke," for example. If someone told me the former, I'd brush it off with "Fine, think what you want." If someone told me the latter, I'd ask them to explain why.

Bottom line - for the most part, we're just a bunch of strangers with computer keyboard and internet access. People will say/write all sorts of things, including things they wouldn't say in real life. Take it for what it is. If you don't like it, and it's not a personal attack (e.g. "Hey you, your playing sucks!!") better to just let it go rather then get all bent out of shape about it.

As for "aloha" - I get irked by people who have no connection to Hawaii whatsoever tossing that term around, but hey - that's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

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Absolutely, I agree.

My problem — and it is my problem — is when somebody presents an opinion as a fact, and they are wrong, I sometimes feel the need to call them on it. If it stands unchallenged, there are folks who will read it and nod and then they’ll get it wrong, too.

Look at the memes on FaceBook in which somebody will offer some business about how to tell the sex of bell peppers, and get a hundred and fifty likes and twenty comments about how interesting that is, they didn't know that, when it is complete hogwash.

If I misstate something, get a fact wrong, I expect, and I want, people to point it out, so I don’t flub it again. I come from a world where fact-checking is a big deal, and no matter how much you try to get it right, sometimes you still miss stuff.

If I get called on something and I am not wrong? Seems perfectly valid to point that out. I don’t know much about anything, but I know a little about a lot of things, and if somebody is gonna bust my chops because I got a metaphor wrong? They need to learn how to use Google, before they pop off and embarrass themselves.

I love to have discussions with folks who have strong opinions and beliefs contrary to mine, those are the best kind, you learn stuff. If what you believe isn’t worth standing up for, then it’s not much of a belief, is it?

If you make a bald-faced statement of fact: “Dude, that’s a 1957 Chevy!” and it is a ’55? Somebody who knows will call you on it. And they should. Saying that, in your opinion it’s a ’57 doesn’t really help, does it?

It's a truffle .

janeray1940 said:

I've seen some of the threads where these issues have come up and - for the most part, what is being criticized are opinions, nothing more, nothing less. I for one can't figure out for the life of me why people are so scared of opinions - scared to have them, and scared by those who do have them. It's a UKULELE forum, for goodness sakes; it's not a matter of life and death!

There's a difference between saying "Dude, the uke you bought sucks!" and saying "I think you spent too much money on that uke," for example. If someone told me the former, I'd brush it off with "Fine, think what you want." If someone told me the latter, I'd ask them to explain why.

Bottom line - for the most part, we're just a bunch of strangers with computer keyboard and internet access. People will say/write all sorts of things, including things they wouldn't say in real life. Take it for what it is. If you don't like it, and it's not a personal attack (e.g. "Hey you, your playing sucks!!") better to just let it go rather then get all bent out of shape about it.

As for "aloha" - I get irked by people who have no connection to Hawaii whatsoever tossing that term around, but hey - that's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

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I agree with everything said, here.

Also, CeeJay totally cracks me up. His posts make me laugh, almost on a daily basis. I think that he is the most misunderstood participant in this forum. Those who choose to be offended are missing out on some good laughs.

That brings me to another point. If something hits a nerve, how we respond is our choice. If something irritates me to the point of going off on an Internet forum, I'm just going to sign out. I'll come back when I'm not upset. After all, I'm here to enjoy myself...not let total strangers ruin my day.

D3B7 said:

I agree with everything said, here.

Also, CeeJay totally cracks me up. His posts make me laugh, almost on a daily basis. I think that he is the most misunderstood participant in this forum. Those who choose to be offended are missing out on some good laughs.

That brings me to another point. If something hits a nerve, how we respond is our choice. If something irritates me to the point of going off on an Internet forum, I'm just going to sign out. I'll come back when I'm not upset. After all, I'm here to enjoy myself...not let total strangers ruin my day.

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Me too with everything above. CeeJay is awesome in my book, as are so many (in fact, most) of my other UU brethren...

One thing that I've noticed in my paltry 2 yrs as a member here on UU is that some folks have a very thin skin, and a few others, whom just might be woefully misunderstood (by me) seem to be experts at generating controversy for it's own sake, and really care nothing for artful debate, they get a thrill and joy from witnessing the carnage that all too often will ensue...

In the words of Hall & Oats, 'I Can't Go For That, No Can Do', and as such there are a few recent threads that I've completely avoided due to the first 5 or 6 posts heading down a path more towards posturing and malicious ignorance than any meaningful expression of opinions or constructive criticism.

Mind you, I'm not criticizing the freedom of expression of other folks, but if I think that the topic and following conversation thread, even just reading about it is going to make me angry or upset, I really need to distance myself from it. I do not come on UU to rain on anyone else's parade, nor to impose my opinions.

My intention is to share what I've learned (in order to help others here), and to try and learn from the experiences of others.

While negativity is unavoidable in life, and even necessary sometimes, I do not seek to become awash in it's miasma. Some do, and that is their path in life (or online), but it is a bad way for me.

I have no clear definition of 'Aloha' nor 'Mahalo' that has any tangible function in my life, other than the extreme feelings of joy and peace that I get from playing the ukulele, and I realize that this feeling is not unique to the ukulele, but because the cultural heritage of the ukulele is from Hawaii by way of Portugal, I am open to describing these feelings as being manifest and shared with 'Aloha' and 'Mahalo'...

Maybe one day when I can visit the Hawaiian Islands, I will be able to better understand their true nature.

and Thank YOU, Steveperrywriter, as this is a great thread!

Wow, someone in one of the other threads must have said "take it outside" and you guys did. If people can't agree with each other on the terms of a discussion, a debate is going to turn into a car accident whether it's a debate about the value of custom instruments or a debate about debating.

There seem to be people on this forum from all over the world. There are a multitude of opportunities for the creation of misunderstandings with the variations in the use of language, and that's just between those of us who speak English as a first language.

Modern communications are well known for the speed at which an argument can escalate. Early in my working life I was told that if something was annoying it can be therapeutic to write an angry letter. The thing though was not to post the letter, but to put it in the drawer until the next day and see then if you still wanted to send it.

I like the use of the word aloha hereabout even when from an unlikely part of the globe. The word in this country is aroha so I'm somewhat used to the idea. Aroha is not used as extensively but the meaning is somewaht similar. If it seemed that the consensus among Hawaiian people was against the way we use the word aloha I would have to reconsider.
The idea that discussions on U/U be conducted in a spirit of aloha is a good one.

I see the common denominator at the start of the dust-ups, not as opinions, but as directed judgements of others.

Opinion: I think Ponos are better than KoAlohas.
Directed judgement: I think you should have bought a Pono over a KoAloha.

Opinion: Worth Browns absolutely suck pond-water.
Directed judgement: Anyone using Worth Browns should have their ears checked.

Opinion: That brand of uke, used, should sell for around four hundred bucks.
Directed judgement: If you paid over four hundred bucks for that uke, you got boned.

A profoundly strong opinion about a "thing" is acceptable, but even a profoundly weak judgement about a "person" (singly or collectively) is unacceptable.

My dos centavos; simply follow the rules as stated and as a refresher, should be revisited from time to time. The Do and Don't rules . . .

1) GOLDEN RULE: DON'T BE A JERK
All members are equal. Your fame/experience/expertise does not give you the right to disregard the golden rule.

2) General Conduct - Please do:
2.1 Stay on topic.
2.2 Post when you have something to say rather than to just make noise. A cluttered forum is more difficult to manage and moderate.
2.3 Check your ego at the door. If you are already an accomplished player, please help your fellow Ukulele Underground members grow in their musical journeys by answering questions and sharing knowledge. Remember that we were all beginners once, and how grateful we were when someone took the time to teach us a few chords or a song.
2.4 Keep criticism constructive and tactful.
2.5 Promote friendship and tolerance.
2.6 Contact your moderator team in the event of conflict or dispute, rather than being drawn into arguments and heated exchanges.
2.7 Be cool, be respectful, be kind.
2.8 Have fun!

3) General Conduct - Please Don't:
3.1 Post insults.
3.2 Post anything promoting or expressing racism, homophobia, bigotry or other idiotic hating. People are people and variety is cool.
3.3 Post pornography or shock/gore material, or links to such material.
3.4 Post offensive things. Occasional profanity may be tolerated, but if it isn't necessary please consider not using it.
3.5 Troll, or start threads that might seem calculated to cause trouble or get locked down.
3.6 Bash artists.
3.7 Start threads to criticize moderator decisions such as bans and thread closures. If you have concerns over the way UU is run, then please contact us by private message.

I believe that incivility, talking over someone are poor behaviors online.. where are the days of humbleness and online etiquette and PMing someone if you had concerns towards someones post..
Just being humble, I agree the many times we are chatting to someone in mere words without facial expressions and vocal tone may be very hard to gauge and misinterpetations is one thing
but to add fuel to the fire and say it was just banter in their own judgment.. could be viewed differently by others..
How can one have Aloha without real time interaction and not mere words for interpretation or suggested misinterpitation..
To me the use of words such debates and opinions may be seen as argumentative, for some to justify their actions afterwards.
Remember the old saying, treat others as you would want to be treated... don't suggest the term Aloha or No Aloha be used to in a retaliative manner, as that can be seen as offensive...

I believe that when someone makes a provocative or annoying statement like "many people are overpaying for custom ukes and K brands" is precisely the opportunity to be kind rather than "calling them on it."

"I disagree" and "Really? Which ones?" or "What makes you say that?" are appropriate responses in my opinion. And there were many kinder responses in that thread. But telling the OP that his posts "needed work" was not one of them. The OP said it was never his intention to upset people and I believed him. My two cents.

I think the word Aloha is overused in situations like this. A more fitting word would be "pono". Look it up. God knows you have the time.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:

I think the word Aloha is overused in situations like this. A more fitting word would be "pono". Look it up. God knows you have the time.

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Chuck, "kuleana" too. I tink no can have one an naht da odda. Yea?

Steveperrywriter said:

I enjoy a good debate, and if somebody brings evidence or reasoning better than what I got, I have no problem in changing my belief on the matter.

Oh, wow, yeah, you’re right. My mistake.

No shame in ignorance, the world is chock full of stuff about which I don’t know squat. One of the reasons I come here is because there are folks who are experts in the care and feeding of ukuleles, and I want to learn.
...
It still kind of amazes me that someone will offer something provocative and then be completely surprised when it provokes people. All we have to play with here are words, so choosing them carefully is probably a better way to go than just tossing stuff out willy-nilly.

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Steveperrywriter said:

...I love to have discussions with folks who have strong opinions and beliefs contrary to mine, those are the best kind, you learn stuff. If what you believe isn’t worth standing up for, then it’s not much of a belief, is it?

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I share your sentiments here. I've always bee interested in, and/or enjoyed reading your posts here on the forum, and the above are no exception. Your comments here, read to me as striving for common ground with others, which I have a great deal of respect for.

Some other folks have the perception of 'hey it's just the internet, get a life', and are willy-nilly with words as one might toss random candy wrappers on the ground without considering whether their actions will harm anyone or anything (like polluting the soil or choking a small bird that will try to eat the plastic), or even that SOMEBODY will have to come by and clean up their mess.

I've seen in many places, as well as in taglines on forum signatures, variations on the following phrase:

'Leave each place better than you found it.'

I wish more folks in general, not just on internet forums would adopt this as a habit.

mds725 said:

Wow, someone in one of the other threads must have said "take it outside" and you guys did. If people can't agree with each other on the terms of a discussion, a debate is going to turn into a car accident whether it's a debate about the value of custom instruments or a debate about debating.

Click to expand...

When minds are closed, discord and carnage are usually the result. If a person wishes to cultivate negativity, there is little anyone can do to stop them, however that person will eventually repeat this effort over and again, until they become a vessel for negativity, and nurture it within themselves without even realizing it. This is a slippery slope.

I am no expert on either, but I would beg those who do not understand the difference between an Argument and an Artful Debate, for the lack of appreciation of how they differ, and the words/actions that will follow either path, and their consequences (remember cause and effect?) to find a way to learn one from the other.

In as much as it matters, many misunderstandings might never happen if this was something shared by everyone.

Couple things, to attempt clarity. In the back-and-forth on the original post that led to this discussion, I was late to the party, and I disagreed with most of what the OP had to say, but took issue with but one point of a list, which was a flat, and what I believed to be, incorrect, statement. My experience said otherwise, and I offered it.

Guy said: “A guitar builder is not going to make a great ukulele right away.”

And to this point, I said, “So if I have this great-looking, great-sounding, great-playing tenor uke that was made by a guy who primarily builds guitars, patterned after a classical guitar, and he has build (sic) but two of them? Then your argument has at least one exception, and I hope you won't think me unrealistic, but I expect that there are other exceptions. If you posit an argument and offer it up for debate, it is a good idea to limit the scope so as to not be shown in error right off the bat …”

I didn’t call the poster names, I just pointed out a flaw in his statement, and offered a way to fix it. Yeah, I'm wordy, but I didn't think that was unclear, nor particularly nasty.

The OP responded, I responded to him, we went back and forth, and he seemed disturbed by the notion that I was not agreeing with him, but we eventually got to a place where we left it, no hard feelings. End of discussion.

(And there were side-jaunts with a couple of other folks that were less convivial. Some people are oil-and-water, they don’t mix, and there you go.)

Fast forward to another area, a poster asked about buying custom ukes. I offered my small experiences, as did others.

And one of the responses was from the guy with whom I had the back-and-forth, and it seemed to me that he was going to beat the same drum again. I asked for specifics, was admittedly less-temperate in my comments, and that one went downhill fast. When I offered a link that demonstrated another simple error he made, I got called an old blowhard bully. Which may be true, except for the “bully,” part, but if the notions of aloha, or pono, are going to be applied? Shouldn’t that door swing both ways?

There is an quote from Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Now certainly that doesn’t apply here as such, no evil was intended, but the principle of speaking up when you notice something you think is wrong is the same. If somebody says, “Well, that’s not how you do it!” and you have been doing it that way for thirty years just fine, you are allowed to call them on it, are you not?

You can let whatever you want go by, but sometimes you don't want to let it slide. When the OP waved the notion that he had spoken with a graduate of a prestigious lutherie school at us, a well-regarded, self-taught uke maker allowed as how maybe he wasn't all that impressed with that comment. And rightly so.

I spend a lot of time here at the keyboard. Much of that is for my job, but often, I take a break on the net, since I’m at the computer anyhow. I much enjoy UU.

I like hearing folks who know this stuff kicking it back and forth. My ignorance knows no bounds, and any time somebody can shine a light on it, that’s good.

Debate is one of those lot of things about which I have some experience. In a forum where all we have is words on a screen, pointing out how to have a reasonable discussion doesn’t seem such bad a thing.

Even war has rules …

coolkayaker1 said:

I see the common denominator at the start of the dust-ups, not as opinions, but as directed judgements of others.

Opinion: I think Ponos are better than KoAlohas.
Directed judgement: I think you should have bought a Pono over a KoAloha.

Opinion: Worth Browns absolutely suck pond-water.
Directed judgement: Anyone using Worth Browns should have their ears checked.

Opinion: That brand of uke, used, should sell for around four hundred bucks.
Directed judgement: If you paid over four hundred bucks for that uke, you got boned.

A profoundly strong opinion about a "thing" is acceptable, but even a profoundly weak judgement about a "person" (singly or collectively) is unacceptable.

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This is an important point. It reminds me of something I learned when I was training, eons ago, to be a volunteer crisis hotline counselor - using "I" statements (for example, saying "when you do that, I get angry" instead of "you make me angry") to avoid creating the feeling of blame in the person to whom you are speaking. We often react more to the way things are said than to the thing being said. How we talk to others matters, sometimes even more than what it is we say.