Intonation flat on one string moving up the fretboard

As I move up the fretboard on my Kanilea Baritone, intonation is going flat on the first string (E). The other three strings are fine, just that one string is off by about -10 cents at 5th fret, -15 cents at 7th fret, and nearly -20 cents at 10th and 12th fret.

The problem has always occurred, first with the stock strings, and now with Worth Browns.

The uke has the standard compensated sattle (see picture below) that seems to be used on most Kanileas now, which makes me wonder if the compensation is wrong?

Any idea on what the problem might be or what there is to do?

Rakelele said:

The problem has always occurred, first with the stock strings, and now with Worth Browns.

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Are you saying that the problem occurs as the string gets older/used more? Or is the intonation bad with a new string?

It does seem odd that a compensated saddle would do this. Otherwise, what's the point of compensating? Stupid question: could the saddle possibly be installed backward?

Hey Jim, thanks for your input. What I meant is that the problem happens with both new strings and old as well as with different brands of strings, which makes me think that it's not (or nut just) about the strings.

The saddle is installed the same way as on my other Kanilea. I tried turning it, but that moves the breaking point of that particular string even more backwards and doesn't improve intonation. I'm really puzzled...

Hmm, yeah, that's weird. Did you try contacting Kanilea?

Rakelele said:

The saddle is installed the same way as on my other Kanilea. I tried turning it, but that moves the breaking point of that particular string even more backwards and doesn't improve intonation. I'm really puzzled...

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What if for arguments sake, you take a flat wooden toothpick (or two [or more] stacked between the fretboard and underside of the E string as needed) and place it only under the E string, and no other strings, right at the nut, and see if that effects the intonation? if not move it closer to the first fret, like 1mm at a time until you see the intonation change...

Now try playing chords up and down the neck and see if the instrument is in tune with itself across all 4 strings...

If so, then you have diagnosed the problem and can see about getting a new saddle (either pre-made from Kanile'a, or getting a blank one and compensating it yourself according to the toothpick position)

If the toothpick does not alter the intonation towards going sharp from the current default setup, then something else is going on, but I'd have to think long about that one as I've got nothing else off the top of my head.

ubulele said:

My wild idea on this is that the bridge was affixed slightly crooked.

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That was my first thought as well. The primary cause of it going flat should be that the scale length is off. Are the saddle and nut square to one another?

I had a Kanile'a concert that was just as you describe, only worse! Although 2,3, and 4 were fine, string #1 was actually more than a quarter tone flat at 12. Brand new instrument, and I tried three different brands of strings. I had one of the best luthiers in Chicago build a compensated saddle (can't find the photo) that had the cut-off point for the first string about a quarter of an inch closer to the head than the rest of the strings. It dangled out over the soundboard, if you can picture it. With this dreadful contraption, the 12th fret gave me a perfect octave, but it threw the intonation so out of whack over the rest of the fret board the instrument sounded like an out-of-tune tin can. Cost me about 240 bucks and I had to send the ukulele back. Kanile'a should have never let that instrument out the door. If your bari is new, RETURN it.

Thanks for all your helpful comments. So you'd all agree that this isn't something that could be easily fixed, like using different strings or whatever? That either the saddle is compensated falsely or, worse, that the bridge is slightly crooked?

I will measure the scale length on both sides of the saddle tonight and also try Booli's toothpick trick.

I ordered that Baritone directly from the company last summer and have noticed the issue right away, but was hoping that it might just be the strings. Also, I wasn't sure of how much deviation was tolerable, but it really starts bothering me now as I'm moving up the fretboard more frequently.

Rakelele said:

Also, I wasn't sure of how much deviation was tolerable.

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That's up to you ultimately, but most of my ukes are 10 cents or so off by the 12th fret and I don't notice it while playing. Only one or two are spot on.

If 3 of the four strings intonate correctly then the instrument can't be out that far.

Intonation going progressively flatter up the neck usually means that there is too much saddle compensation on that string although the fault could possibly be in the nut placement.

Is there material in the saddle to make the contact point closer to the nut?

Measure the instrument carefully.

What is the specified scale length of the instrument?

Actual scale length of an instrument should be the distance from the nut to the centre of the 12th fret x 2 + compensation.

Do you get exactly the same measurements on both sides of the fretboard? Measure both sides and also down the centre line. If you place a measure down the middle of the fretboard does the centre of the 12th fret line up accurately with a nice figure? It doesn't have to but if it does then this is a decent sign that the instrument is built accurately.

The instrument may be in imperial measurements OR metric so check both.

Double the nut to 12th fret distance, see where this falls near the saddle and measure how much compensation( extra distance over theoretical scale length) there is.

This is a start.

Short scale stringed instruments such as ukuleles need to be made to VERY tight tolerances to have good intonation. We are talking fractions of a mm tolerances.

Anthony

Can you hear it is flat, or is your tuner telling you it is flat? Try tuning the string on one of the flat notes, then go back and check the open string again. You might be surprised to find it still shows that the open string is in tune. I'll just throw this out there. I've noticed this on both my ukes, when I am tuning up to an open string, there is not a sharp defined point that it goes into tune. There is a no man's land in there. If I stop at the precise moment that the string reads in tune, which with my particular tuner the face turns green, some of the notes up the neck may be a tid bit out. According to the tuner. But if I give it just a smidgen more, the needle doesn't move, the face remains green, and that little bit more lines everything up down the neck, to the eye at least. I certainly can't hear the difference, but by doing so the world of the ukulele aligns with the tuner, and after all, what is important is that it looks in tune.

I've measured the scale length from the nut to the slot where the saddle sits in on both sides and down the center of the fretboard, and my reading on all places is pretty much 510 mm. If there's a deviation, it's too small for me to tell.

I also adapted Booli's trick and squeezed a small piece of folded cardboard between the one string and the bridge, next to the saddle (instead of the nut, like he suggested), hence making the scale a bit shorter, and that has really improved the intonation up the fretboard.

What do you guys think of that?

I think you did the right thing by trying it at the saddle.
Of course, mathematically, if its flat at the 12th, you would know you need to shorten it. You still need to check the octave measurement if you haven't already. Seems total scale length is consistent on both sides, but that's just 1/2 of the simple equation.

Not sure if Joe uses a 1/8" or 3/32" saddle. If its the latter, you could open it up to 1/8 on the neck side and compensate from there.

Thanks so much for weighing in, Aaron. I just measured again from the end of the nut to the middle of the 12th fret and what I get is about 25.45 cm on both the first and the fourth string. Not sure if I'm measuring exactly enough, though.

What do you mean opening up the saddle?

Rakelele said:

Thanks so much for weighing in, Aaron. I just measured again from the end of the nut to the middle of the 12th fret and what I get is about 25.45 mm on both the first and the fourth string. Not sure if I'm measuring exactly enough, though.

What do you mean opening up the saddle?

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Simple math tells me you'll have 25.55 from your 12th to the saddle. I'm going to guess this is in cm, as you have 510mm total scale length. That's 1mm of compensation as anthonyg alluded to. Sorry, I work in inches, so about .039" You should be okay with that, but obviously you're not.

First thing I'd do is be sure your saddle is as close to the neck side of the bridge as possible, on the first string . If not, get a new saddle, compensated. I can't tell if the crown is right at the edge or if there's room to go. I'm thinking new saddle. BUT, before that. . .

I'd also try on a thicker set of strings, or at least an A string. Personally, you went the wrong way with Worth.

Opening up the saddle means recutting a 3/32" slot to 1/8", towards the neck side since you need to shorten the scale length. Surgery for sure, but if I were to do it, I'd fill the slot, then recut it with Rick Turner's 7 degree angle. Of course, that may defeat the purpose because it would actually stretch the scale length back out, so forget I said that.

I realize none of this may be the easiest, but you asked in this forum for a reason.

Note: If your intonation is good going up the neck, but your open string is off, I'd maybe take a look at the nut. Joe's been doing this a long time, I doubt if its there.

My guess, its your strings. I know he used to put Aquila's on stock, and while they have their place on certain instrument, I've always thought they limited what I hear from Joe's instruments. Sometimes, production makes you do production things, and that's okay. Strings are cheap.

I just checked Strings by Mail, and the D'Addario Titanium T2's are what I use on some of my Spruce tops. Funny, the Tenor set first string is .029, while the Baritone set is .028. You can order them individually, T44/T45/T46. I'd put money that the T4401 may help. Of course, at $1.62, that's about all the money I'd put

Damn - this must be a record longest post for me. . .

Rakelele said:

I've measured the scale length from the nut to the slot where the saddle sits in on both sides and down the center of the fretboard, and my reading on all places is pretty much 510 mm. If there's a deviation, it's too small for me to tell.

I also adapted Booli's trick and squeezed a small piece of folded cardboard between the one string and the bridge, next to the saddle (instead of the nut, like he suggested), hence making the scale a bit shorter, and that has really improved the intonation up the fretboard.

What do you guys think of that?

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I know I asked you to check the distances in mm and inches. Given both sets of measurements I suspect that the instrument is built in inches and has a 20" (508mm) nominal scale length. The 254.5mm at the edge of the fingerboard will be 254mm down the centreline which is 10 inches.

Now forgive me for mixing inches and metric, 20 inches is close enough to 508mm so 510mm nut to saddle leading edge is a minimum of 2mm of compensation at the saddle. Good for the bass strings but too much compensation for the high strings which is exactly what you are complaining about.

A lot of ukuleles are built with the saddle placed for good intonation for the higher strings but the bass strings go sharp. Yours has been built the other way around. Ukuleles and classic guitars have been historically built with saddles that are perpendicular to the strings yet as consumers get fussier and fussier about intonation the solution seems to be that a slight angle in the saddle for LOW bass string instruments is required.

The fly in the ointment of course is that most ukuleles are strung reentrant so a slightly angled saddle won't work.

Long story short, get a luthier to make you a custom saddle. This can be a little tricky and involve some milling but it can be done or as Arron stated you could fill the saddle slot and mill another at an angle if there is enough timber.

Anthony

Thanks so much for your detailed instructions, Aaron and Anthony! I haven't had to deal with these kinds of questions before, but I'm starting to understand now (I hope).

I will try thicker strings and/or another saddle.

As a matter of fact, I've just switched out the saddle to a non-compensated one from my other Kanilea. This one has a sharp edge on the fretboard side, making all four strings as short as possible. It's hard to tell right now, as the strings haven't settled yet, but I don't think that it helped, or not by much...

Do you think that I'm overreacting, that a deviation of about -20 cents is tolerable? It does seem pretty noticeable to my ears, and my other ukes are pretty much spot on.

Rakelele said:

Do you think that I'm overreacting, that a deviation of about -20 cents is tolerable? It does seem pretty noticeable to my ears, and my other ukes are pretty much spot on.

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It depends upon YOUR hearing perception. Lots of folks cant tell the difference at +/- 40 cents deviation (and truly this is blissful ignorance), but I can hear even +/- 3-5 cents 'off' now (after long, careful training of my ear), and +/- 20 cents would make me cringe, and/or REQUIRE 'me' to fix the problem, by compensating the nut, saddle or both, and in the worst case scenario I'd remove and reseat the bridge.

However, for the folks that cant tell the difference, there's tons of YouTube videos as evidence of this, and it seems they just live with it.

Having said that, this is a Kanile'a, and for that money, I'd require the intonation to be much better from the factory, but that's just me.

Like I stated in my last post, I have now installed a straight saddle that I took from my other Kanilea. This one puts the action too low on the Baritone, but I guess that won't influence intonation, would it?

With this non-compensated saddle, intonation on the first string may have improved by about 4 cents, so it's still off by about -16 at the 10th and 12th fret. To get a proper octave, I have to bend that first string all the way up to the next.

Since this saddle, which brings the strings as close to the end of the bridge as possible, still isn't enough, I'm afraid that the first string would need a saddle that dangles over the bridge, just like stevepetergal mentioned in post #8.

I will next try the strings that Aaron recommended and order them from Booli's store, thanks guys!

Rakelele said:

Like I stated in my last post, I have now installed a straight saddle that I took from my other Kanilea. This one puts the action too low on the Baritone, but I guess that won't influence intonation, would it?

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It can. At least you know the scale is too long, for Worth strings.