Oh No, Pono!

I am still looking for a good baritone ukulele. Some of you may recall that I went to a local store last fall and tried the two Kala baritones they had in stock. Both of them had bad necks. The store then ordered in several more Kala’s, models ABP-CTG and FMBG; and those (8 of them) all had bad necks—necks with compound S-curves that were not going to be easily fixed.

I reported my experiences on UU a few months ago and there were a couple of folks who didn’t like what I had to say. Nevertheless, I’m a big boy without an axe to grind, and with a message that I felt needed to be delivered. There were two flamethrowers, as expected; but they were rebutted by other posters here, so I just presented my experiences in as factual a way as I could and let the stuff hit the fan where it would.

Now, I think the good folks at UU need to know some of the rest of the story; because I think you’ll find a surprise here. I have ordered in two other baritones through the mail, and both had problems. One was a Lanikai LK-BEU. It’s the koa baritone with the USB port. I purchased it through the mail from a reputable store. When I received it, it had some bad buzzing on the 3rd-7th frets. I sent it back to the dealer, and their luthier worked on it and they sent it back to me. The buzzing was all but gone, but still present enough to be annoying to a practiced ear. I sold the Lanikai LK-BEU.

So after much thought, I decided to take the plunge and buy a Pono. At no small price, I purchased a Pono MBD that had reportedly been bought originally from a very reputable dealer and set up by them (I will not disclose the dealer, but most here would recognize the name). The NUD arrived and I was anxious to give it a try.

The first thing I noticed was the string set had a 3rd that was unwound. It sounded great with open chords, although the action was a little high. I played up and down the fretboard and then noticed another issue—the higher I went on the fretboard, the poorer the intonation. I also noticed what sounded like a little buzzing on the 3rd string when I played an open D; and as I didn’t like the projection from the string set, I decided to changes strings. The ones I put on had a wound 3rd string.

With the new strings, the 3rd string buzz was worse. Now I had a good idea why the Pono had arrived with an unwound 3rd. But that wasn’t the greatest concern. I think a luthier could have solved the buzzing, although the action would always remain a little high. It was the intonation that was the main issue.

I measured the distance from the nut to the 12th fret and from the 12th fret to the saddle. The latter measurement was a SOLID 3/32nds of an inch longer. If anything, the measurement from the 12th fret to the saddle needs to be less than the measurement from the nut to the 12th fret. Why? Because the human ear tends to “flatten” notes as they go higher, even with the frequencies being perfect. That’s why saddles are canted to sharpen the higher strings (i.e., the saddle is slightly slanted towards the head from the 6th string to the 1st string on a guitar. This isn’t done much on ukuleles because of re-entrant tuning, that is, the first string is similar in pitch to the 4th string).

The Pono MBD bridge was clearly placed too far back from the head. This is something that should never happen with modern manufacturing techniques. The intonation on the new Pono would always be a problem without being removed, repositioned and re-glued—a fix that would be both expensive and likely visible, according to the experienced luthier to whom I spoke. I divested of the Pono.

So why am I providing my experiences here? Well, I think we need to be better consumers. The ukulele manufacturers are too often sending out poor quality instruments. Even the Pono’s can be beyond reasonable repair. It’s up to us to send the krap back. The sooner we send it back, the sooner the builders will fix their indefensible sloppy engineering and production problems.

So, will I order another baritone through the mail? Probably. The reason is that there aren’t music stores around that carry anything other than Kalas and Lanikais up to around $300 near where I live, and I want something a little better.

I know there are those on UU who will boldly state there are dealers that send out only good quality ukuleles properly set up, yada, yada…; but I can tell you that at least one Pono slipped through the cracks, and that is 100% of my Pono purchases to date.

- Farp

Farp said:

I know there are those on UU who will boldly state there are dealers that send out only good quality ukuleles properly set up, yada, yada…; but I can tell you that at least one Pono slipped through the cracks, and that is 100% of my Pono purchases to date.

- Farp

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There is a contingent on UU that says that one should only buy from certain dealers, and the expectation is that you'll get a perfect specimen every time. Well, the reality is that doesn't happen. For whatever reason, bad ukes do go out the door of the most beloved shops. I had to return a uke for a twisted neck that absolutely should have been noticed before it was boxed up. Now, I know that this shop was trying to give me a uke asap (I'd ordered one from the site that said in stock, but they were sold out, then at NAMM picked me up a new model). I noticed the twist right away. Nobody had looked down the fretboard until I got it. Like my uke, this Pono probably didn't get the onceover that you gave it. I can forgive minor cosmetic issues, but stuff like poor intonation or bad necks shouldn't get by any buyer.

I do think that having a setup included with a less expensive uke can be a good deal, but we should be finding local repair shops to work on our instruments and not rely on some one-time setup job to make things perfect. A beginner isn't going to know how low he or she wants the action. One might want to change it later, and different strings can require some further changes. There are great uke stores that have good reputations for a reason, but the level of expectation is way too high.

I hope you find that baritone. I'm sure it's out there.

Wayfarer, thank you for your post. And you are right--there are expectations that are (hopefully) met for the majority; but there are inconsistencies that allow some poor instruments to slip through, as you confirm.

For me, a strong 3/32nds inch difference in the measurements from the nut to the 12th and from the 12th to the bridge demonstrates a lax manufacturing oversight that should not be tolerated. Unfortunately, a beginner cannot be expected to see or correctly judge the flaws. And how any dealer would not short circuit the problem and remove the uke from market is inexcusable; but I guess we are all human.

There are many posts here and elsewhere that would suggest Pono ukuleles are by and large faultless, let alone ukuleles from certain dealers. I have found otherwise and appreciate your having weighed in with your personal experience.

In all but the rarest cases, no one should be giving you a hard time for sharing your experiences anyway. Thanks for your post.

If I am reading this correctly you " bought a Pono that was reportedly bought from a reputable dealer and set up by them". Does that mean this was a used uke purchased from a private individual.

You state futher on " I divested of the Pono", what exactely happened to this ukulele. I am only asking because I had a friend with the very same Pono MBD model that had the exact same problem. He sent it back and was given credit on something else. This was at least 6 months ago.

Nothing is perfect but you are certainly having a run of bad luck. Don't want to sound like a broken record but, HMS, Mims and Uke Republic all go above and beyond. Sure things can happen with them but they WILL make it right if it does

Hmmm...12 bad ukes in a row for you. I hope the two that you sold off you at least let the new owner know of the issues you had. Good luck with your future purchases.

Sorry to hear about the bad news, have you contacted the company? as many will be content to refund, or was it purchased privately?

I always, if I can, try out the ukulele first. For example my martin, I played 5 before finding my perfect one on the 6th try. I know you mentioned that this is not an option. Maybe when your order online call the store to talk about your specific preferences as that may help with your purchase.

Hopefully you will find your right baritone soon

Quote: "So after much thought, I decided to take the plunge and buy a Pono. At no small price, I purchased a Pono MBD that had reportedly been bought originally from a very reputable dealer and set up by them (I will not disclose the dealer, but most here would recognize the name). The NUD arrived and I was anxious to give it a try."

So you bought a second hand ukulele and you are implying that the vendor setup was poor. That is unfair. A setup is not something that will last forever. It depends on all kinds of things like shipping and how the ukulele was used and stored. We don't know what the previous owner did. We know nothing about the environment in which the ukulele was stored. We don't know what kind of adjustments the previous owner did to the uke. What is the history of the ukulele? Was it a second? How old is it? Etc. My experience with Pono is that the ukuleles they are making right now are fantastic, but I've had some older ones that were not quite ready for prime time.

Here's the thing I can tell you to a certainty. If you buy a baritone, Pono or otherwise from the Ukulele Site, the seller will bend over backwards and do backflips if necessary to make you happy. If you get it and don't like anything about the setup - they'll let you ship it back for free - fix what you don't like and send it back. The service you get will be as good as you will get from any vendor. Ever. They don't always do everything perfectly but they always make it right and do so with courtesy and respect.

You seem to be hell bent for leather to make the point that those of us here who swear by certain dealers are wrong or deluded. Well no dealer is perfect. But some of us have experienced dealers who will do whatever it takes to make sure we are happy with the ukulele we end up with.

There was a boatload of "seconds"-quality Ponos released into the market, bought in bulk by a reseller and then sold individually, about two years ago. I know several that have gotten into the hands of UUers, and they were less than perfect. This is a fact.

Perhaps you got one of those? Don't know.

This is why Farp shouldn't go for a walk in the woods...

Over the past couple of years, I bought seven Pono ukes from different dealers, and never have I been dissappointed. Intonation has always been as good or better than on other production ukes.

However, I know that it is tricky to get perfect intonation on a short scaled instrument. I was experiencing a similar issue with my Kanile'a baritone that I reported here. From what I learned, I would say that your assumption about the bridge being misplaced isn't necessarily accurate. A lot can be done with both the shape of the saddle and the thickness of strings. The best that builders can do is to build to a range that will work with most average strings. The same goes for set-ups. If you're particularly fuzzy, then you'll have to work on each string individually.

Rakelele said:

From what I learned, I would say that your assumption about the bridge being misplaced isn't necessarily accurate.

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Rakelele, I appreciate your post; however, please explain how an actual measurement can be an "assumption." What can be more accurate than an actual measurement?

Thanks.

Farp said:

Rakelele, I appreciate your post; however, please explain how an actual measurement can be an "assumption." What can be more accurate than an actual measurement?

Thanks.

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A measurement is a measurement. You are assuming, based on nothing more than your own opinion of what is correct, that the bridge/saddle are placed incorrectly. That's the difference.

The distance from nut to 12th fret, and 12th fret to point of contact at the saddle on my Kanile'a K1-TP differs by 2.5mm, but it intonates as perfectly as can be expected from an instrument with such a short scale as a ukulele.

In your small number of threads, you come across as someone who sets out with the express intention of being dissatisfied with whatever you encounter or purchase.

Merely an observation, and one in which I would appear to be far from alone, judging by the tone of several responses to your comments.

And some of you come off as a gear in a clique to do nothing other than pigeonhole all the rest, especially if they have an opinion counter to the clique. And, as long as we're now relegated to "observations," why is it that your type goes to personal attackes against others who simply lay out their experience rather than speaking to the point?

Perhaps you have a better way of positioning a bridge other than a measurement or template that has a preset measurement? That would be big news. And as I stated, the 12th to saddle may not match the 12th to the nut; but it certainly shouldn't be longer.

Farp said:

And some of you come off as a gear in a clique to do nothing other than pigeonhole all the rest, especially if they have an opinion counter to the clique. And, as long as we're now relegated to "observations," why is it that your type goes to personal attackes against others who simply lay out their experience rather than speaking to the point?

Perhaps you have a better way of positioning a bridge other than a measurement or template that has a preset measurement? That would be big news. And as I stated, the 12th to saddle may not match the 12th to the nut; but it certainly shouldn't be longer.

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When you fret a note, especially on an instrument with a relatively high action, you sharpen the note. This is compensated for by moving the saddle further from the nut, lengthening the string. You must also take into account the relative differences in string gauge, which also impacts intonation.

Big enough news for you?

The Big Kahuna said:

When you fret a note, especially on an instrument with a relatively high action, you sharpen the note. This is compensated for by moving the saddle further from the nut, lengthening the string. You must also take into account the relative differences in string gauge, which also impacts intonation.

Big enough news for you?

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Fair enough. So now explain how that is known prior to fretting a string so that the measurements would vary on any given model? Or, if that measurement is a given, why isn't the measurement the same on a given scale? The fact is that the bridge on the Pono I purchased was off a significant amount. That was my experience, and that is what I posted--nothing more, nothing less. And am I to assume that you are suggesting the typical Pono action is relatively high?

Farp said:

Rakelele, I appreciate your post; however, please explain how an actual measurement can be an "assumption." What can be more accurate than an actual measurement?

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On a correctly built uke, the distance from 12th fret to saddle will usually be a couple of mm longer to compensate the sharpening of pressing down the string. What I was questioning was your assumption that it should be shorter.

Farp said:

And am I to assume that you are suggesting the typical Pono action is relatively high?

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You can assume what you like, or twist my words however you wish pal, that seems to be your SoP after all.

Your posting history consists almost entirely of misinformation, a ludicrous attempt to sabotage the reputation of Kala, Pono and (it is to be assumed) HMS, one of, if not the most respected ukulele dealer in the world, despite by your own admission not having purchased the uke from them at all, but from someone on ebay, which renders the link to HMS tenuous at best, slanderous at worst.

You have also inserted yourself inappropriately into at least two other threads concerning Kala, where you again attempted to trash the brand by referencing your earlier thread. You then litter these threads with references to your many years of experience, along with unsubtle hints that we should shower you with gratitude for gracing us with your vast knowledge.

Sadly, this vast knowledge appears to be as worthless as a 9 dollar bill.

I suggest you cut your losses, or at least do the honourable thing and contact Kala and Pono directly, to discuss your "issues"

This thread looks to be going nowhere fast... Shutting it down, have a nice day folks! :shaka: