Appreciating Reentrant Tuning

Soundbored said:
The reason for this "debate" is that we're actually talking about two different things: 1) Can 2020 be categorized and labeled as "D7"? and 2) In a musical context, can 2020 be played where you would use some other form of "D7"?

The answer to the first is most definitely "no". When we label and categorize things, we have to make choices about what's in and what's out. The root of D7 is "D", so without it, you have some other chord, but it's not a "D7", sorry. You can't categorize any quadruped as a "Hominid" for the same reason, it has nothing to do with "context". When your piano teacher asks you to show them a G major chord, try leaving the G note off and telling them "It's all about the context, bro!".
Click to expand...

No, you're not correct sir. Especially about the rootless chords. They're used in jazz all the time. You specifically mentioned piano, so here's a link about that: http://jazzpianoschool.com/what-are-rootless-voicings-and-how-to-use-them/

The name of a chord will always be contextually based. Which is why the D7 works in the context of the piece.
 
When everyone but oneself is of a different mind, one should always ask: Could I be wrong?
It's likely so.

I don't know enough about music theory to contribute but Ive seen many different sources call 2020 not Hawaiian D7 but D7 period. That means they DEFINED it as an alternative voicing of D7.
 
Soundbored said:
Again, you're talking about using them, and so is that site. See above where I agreed with you.
Click to expand...

And that's why naming follows the context of the sound and what the key is. Just like a diminished chord can always have any note in the chord as the root (therefore having four different names), depending on the context of the key.
 
Not only 2020 is definitely a D7 chord ( when used in the key of G of course ) but one could easily ommit the two A's too (1st and 4th strings) and still produce the dominant 7 effect... just by using C and F# notes. It's the tritone interval that makes all the difference. Bigest rule in Western music. Works every time.
 
Back on track, when it comes to re-entrant vs linear, I find that playing without those lower notes is a challenge to me musically. It requires a bit of understanding about how notes go together. It seems quite simple and straight forward to just go up and down the scale plucking the notes as they appear on the paper in front of me. But coming up with ways to play songs without those notes is fun. I mean, it requires a bit of creativity. I think that is one of the main reasons I like to play re-entrant. It really makes me get out of the linear way of thinking and makes me search for creative ways to express myself.
 
So where is middle C if you play re-entrant? Should you think about middle F around fret 5 instead of middle C with open strings?
On a piano and a guitar, by convention both have different middle C notes, on a guitar it is at fret 3 of the A string at around 130Hz, and on a piano at key C4 at round about 260 Hz. On a piano there are lots of notes below the middle C, on a guitar it goes down to low E. On your re-entrant uke, the lowest note is C, should you make the C at fret three on the A string the middle C note at around 520Hz, effectively transposing the music one octave higher than it is written for piano and two octaves higher than the guitar music? Should we have a convention where ukulele music is written one octave above the piano middle C?
Effectively, this is what you are doing when you transpose a piece up the scale so there are some low notes available to play on your ukulele. So instead of messing around with several tranposing iterations, why not just move the middle C and see what happens when you are arranging.
I have no views on the answers to the questions, I am not married to a debate on what is right or wrong or music theory stuff, but I think this is the basic the issues when you try to play a complete piece that has a melody and harmony and rhythm etc on your re-entrant ukulele. It is also one of the basic issues when you move from guitar music to play it on your ukulele. You need to centre the music on your ukulele fretboard to have a nice range of high and low notes.
Click to expand...


Bill1, the guitar music is written an octave higher than it sounds. All in treble G clef. Because of a quite wide range, we need to learn note names quite higher and lower of the 5 lines of that.

In a sense If you read standard notation written with guitar you will need play always an octave higher when it is not intended for guitar when soloing.

Ukulele is not a transposing instrument like guitar in that octave sense, so we can play without any transponation. Now this has nothing to do if our ukes are reentrant or low G ones. Just that the middle C4 is our lowest note we can play with our reentrant ukuleles. Sometimes on concert or tenor scale we do play an octave higher than written when soloing, because reentrant ukulele is a soprano range instrument.

Soprano ukuleles are a bit limited in that sense that sometimes they have only 12 frets, but concerts and tenors have more, usually the range is at least 2 octaves. So more limited just to stumming, which is ok too :)

Also some ukuleles are not up to play those high notes in tune. I'm glad mine is :)
 
Last edited:
Bill1 said:
This explanation is nothing to do with re-entrant tuning. If you look at a piano keyboard it is like the standard for the standard notation. It has a C3 key which makes a note at about 130Hz, and the C4 key which makes a sound at around 260Hz, and a C5 key which makes a sound at around 520Hz. In standard notation there is a reference note called "middle C", it looks like Saturn under the five lines of the staff. The correct term is that the C note is on a ledger line. On a guitar we make middle C at the C note found on the A string at fret 3, it sounds at around 130Hz, and is the same note as the C3 key on the piano. On a piano the middle key is a C note and is at the C4 key, I think this is probably where the "middle C" terminology originates. The C4 key makes a note that sounds at 260Hz, one octave above the C3 note used for guitar. So the guitar music is by convention written on octave below the piano music, so we say it is transposed down one octave.
Getting back to re-entrant tuning. On your ukulele we usually tune the open C string to the same note as C4 on a piano which sounds at about 260Hz. When you have a piece of music which has a low note from A to B under the middle C, its can be complicated or impossible to play on a re-entrant tuned ukulele because there are no low notes below C. So if you transpose the music up one octave, that is make the middle C reference note at C5 instead of C4. C5 on your ukulele is available on all four strings at different parts of your fretboard. On the G string it is at fret 5, on the C string at fret 12, on the E string at fret 5, on the A string at fret 3. So if you move your hands to these positions you might be able to easily play the music with the low A or B notes, but it will sound an octave higher.
On soprano uke the fret spacing do seem to make it hard to play along the fret board, but with practice it is not hard to do. And at fret 12 you might run out of high notes as well, but you might not as well. On larger size ukes, there is plenty of room to play the higher frets.
This is just a suggestion for fitting the music onto your fretboard. Not a new and exciting music theory. Transpose it up one octave, very simple and you don't need to re-write the music, you just need to make a note at the start that it has been transposed up an octave. But it will sound higher. There are four positions to try.
Of course it is not the only thing you can try, there are plenty of other things. Re-entrant tuning is good because it makes you think as stated in other posts.
Click to expand...

I see you have made your own definitions of what middle C is. Well, you are wrong.
Guitar has no it's own middle C or if it has, then it is ambiguous at the least, because middle C really comes from piano world. It is the C4 note or rather the note associated to that keyboard key. Also it makes no sense to make ukulele a transposing instrument to complicate things because of that foolish notion you have made in your head of what middle C is.

Middle C:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_C

For re-entrant ukulele I suggest you learn to call it the lowest C note or something and then even a child can understand. But really the middle C comes from the piano world. Didn't you in one post tell me that you are a piano tuner? Here you are making new definitions of your own to other instruments? It is also concert flute's lowest note, unless it has a B foot. Both ukulele and flute are not transposing instruments.
The world will be a better place if people like you are not making your own definitions of things and forcing them on others and complicating things. Best wishes though :)
 
Last edited:
Bill1 said:
On a guitar we make middle C at the C note found on the A string at fret 3, it sounds at around 130Hz, and is the same note as the C3 key on the piano.
Click to expand...

Bill1, I believe what Jarmo_S is trying to tell you is that the pitch a guitar sounds on the A string at fret 3(at around 130Hz) is usually referred to as "Low C," also a term borrowed from piano world. That you are playing it on a guitar does not change its conventional name.
 
The guitar is a transposing instrument. It transposes up an octave. When it plays a middle C notated note, it comes out an octave lower. This is done to avoid either many ledger lines or having to write on two staffs or having to use one of those weird clefs.
Guitarists notate a C3 as middle C, but are not redefining it, just transposing, similar to a clarinet player reading a D note, but producing a C sound.
 
It always amazes to what lengths people will go to in order to make playing the ukulele complicated, and I always wonder what they are trying to prove by doing so. Just saying. ;) That's a winkey there, not a smiley.
 
Jim Yates said:
The guitar is a transposing instrument. It transposes up an octave. When it plays a middle C notated note, it comes out an octave lower. This is done to avoid either many ledger lines or having to write on two staffs or having to use one of those weird clefs.
Guitarists notate a C3 as middle C, but are not redefining it, just transposing, similar to a clarinet player reading a D note, but producing a C sound.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim, that is a good way of explaining it.

I think the contention Jarmo_S has above is that, from a concert perspective, neither the guitarist nor the clarinetist in your example would be playing "middle C" when playing the C one ledger line below the treble staff in their score. Middle C transposed to anywhere is no longer middle C.
 
Rllink said:
It always amazes to what lengths people will go to in order to make playing the ukulele complicated, and I always wonder what they are trying to prove by doing so. Just saying. ;) That's a winkey there, not a smiley.
Click to expand...

There is some knowledge to be gained from discussions such as this, though it often does go beyond what is necessary to play ukulele. As ukulele notation is not transposed we never really have to worry about this issue. In that sense it might complicate things for some people if it is not well-explained.
 
I have found so far that I prefer to transpose things up so that the lowest note in the song I want to play is at the lowest note the ukulele is capable of playing. In this way I can get as much upper range as possible without needing to go up(as frequently) into the wee little frets on the A string or deal with octave jumps where they don't belong.

Sometimes though, I just gotta deal with an octave jump as Bill1 is talking about above.

The real challenge for ukulele arrangers seems to be learning how to make a living without bass notes. Someday maybe I will learn to do that, but for now I will continue to attempt doggedly squeezing them in.
 
Speaking of ranges, I think everyone wants the lowest melody note being also what ukulele can produce as a low note. Sometimes it s not possible as very often in key of C. So yes we either transpose the melody higher than written or can also transpose the song into another key. Both work.

In childrens basic education terms it can be very good if the low G ukulele is available, to cover all the basic notes that we have in treble clef. It seldom is though. But re-entrant ukes are good too, they learn the chords and able to sing along with songs.

No ukulele, not even a baritone one can offer any bass effect except to maybe some high voiced soprano singers, that baritone wierd one, buy rather a guitar. We can certainly forget things like alternating bass. You can maybe? get some effect like that with low G played in C. But it is all just instrumental only. There is no bass, none at all.

Now let's go to singing voices, mine in this case. I have a low voice and can easily sing G2, that is an octave lower than what is usually seen in song books with melody words and chords. I was in amazement that in one thread the english word was fake books? Maybe not the same thing but I see no reason to mention that anyone is faking any by playing from a song book. Anyways I can easily sing an octave lower than put in another words what low G is.

Initially before I got my ukulele, I was worried how it would work with my voice. I had trouble, especially strumming with classical guitar, because my low voice would clash with the guitar being too mellow. Then again most acoustic steel string players also have a higher voice than mine.

What I found out was that maybe my voice gives some bass that is lacking with uke. They sort of complement each other. I get the rhythm and harmony too to back up. It is ukulele sound and certainly not guitar. Suits in many songs I sing at home. To get something different I grab my steel string acoustic. Or classical to fingerpick.

Ukulele range is quite out of my singing range. I can get C, D and good days and some songs also E4.
Like in good days I can also go lower than G2 with comfort and strong and sounds good, to my ears.

I suggest you all to learn what your voice range is. Unfortunately you probably need some other instrument that can go low enough. Be it piano or guitar or accordeon etc ;)
 
Last edited:
I like my ukulele to sound like a ukulele so I tune it re-entrant ADF#B. :p

To be honest I'm also too lazy to learn fingerpicking, so I've never hankered for the wider range which a low G would give me. I did try strumming a low G once on a tenor out of curiosity, and found the booming low string just an annoyance.
 
I have occasionally missed the four low notes (G, G#, A, A#) that I would get from a low G string, and recently got a uke with the low G. I still prefer the high tuned uke for strumming chords or for anything that doesn't require a low G, but the low G does come in handy for some tunes.
Since there are some tunes that I couldn't play on the low G uke, Pete Seeger's Living In The Country for instance, I am glad to have both options available.
I have arranged a ukulele duet of Saint Louis Tickle, an old ragtime tune learned from a Dave Van Ronk album, that requires one low G and one high G uke. I've given it to two of my students, one of whom has a low G uke. These students have never met, but they will once they each have their part learned. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
 
I prefer linear tuning for like 95% of stuff I play. My main uke is low G. But certain songs just don't sound good with low G. To appreciate re-entrant tuning, find songs that you like to play that might sound awkward with low G. You will be surprised at how much re-entrant ukes uplift the over all sound. I did a cover of a song on low G and covered it using re-entrant. I found myself disliking the low G cover (which is normally my fave!!!) because it sounded "too serious" and lacked the vitality and lightness/ethereal-ness of the re-entrant uke. I also like covering anime themes many of which lend themselves to that light breezy feel and is one of the reasons I own a re-entrant tuned ukulele. Obviously if you prefer jazzy ukulele songs you might not really like re-entrant.
 
I just don't understand the viewpoint that jazz music is better on a low G ukulele. Jazzy chords can be played with a high G. Bass notes are difficult either way. So why the opinion that low G is better suited to jazz?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

fretie
Back to Front: a case for appreciating a ukulele's back.
Replies
13
Views
921
fretie
fretie
E
string advice for unusual tenor setup? (non-reentrant DGBE)
Replies
15
Views
542
JHBlues
JHBlues
Oldscruggsfan
Relative tuning - Reentrant soprano
Replies
7
Views
305
Ukecaster
Ukecaster
Larry U
Is reentrant tuning harmful?
2
Replies
31
Views
1K
ploverwing
ploverwing
J
Tuning a guitar/lele like a reentrant uke w/ bass strings
Replies
9
Views
483
Jupu
J
Top Bottom