C string sounds dead on many of the tenor ukes I have listened to.

Mezcalero

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Can anyone explain to me why the C string on so many ukuleles sounds dead or distorted at times? I am posting a link of a great player playing on a great ukulele because at first I thought maybe it was just a player or a low end ukulele, but I have heard this on a majority of Ukuleles I have heard sampled online.

http://www.theukulelesite.com/kanile-a-super-tenor-diamond-st-s-14296.html

I have a few ukes that have this problem, but not all of them. I thought maybe I was attacking the string too aggressively, but if I single the string out and just play single notes up the neck it sounds dead.

Thanks in advance for any input/explainations
 
The c string is the heaviest thickest gauge string, and can run into issues having a very muted, thud like attack. It's exaggerated when you play it up the neck. It's one of the reasons some players like a wound 3rd string. It's more likely to happen with a thick nylon string, but higher density flourocarbon can more often perform better in this sense.
 
Thanks Ryan! The explanation is logical, I guess I am just surprised that it is so common and hasn't been addressed. I don't think I am exaggerating if I say a majority of the sound samples I hear online when researching ukes have this thuddy (is that a word) sound. To me it is unacceptable in >$1000.00 instruments.
 
Exactly what recstar24 said. I read somewhere that in the dark days before nylgut and fluorocarbon it was quite common to use a wound C (even with a re-entrant set up). I'm not sure how factually correct this is. I came across this info after discovering that D'Addario offer a single aluminium wound string that appears to be intended to use as a 3rd with nylons.

Personally, I find that even a relatively 'skinny' fluorocarbon C can sound thuddy. And I prefer to use a wound string.
 
I don't know; that sounds pretty well balanced to me. Is there a particular time you find it most apparent?

I find the C string on my ukes more sensitive to the tonal shift that occurs when picked/strummed in the 12th to 14th fret area, where it becomes guttural (for want of a better description). But I don't hear deadness. Could be my ears though.
 
Your ear is very good. I can not hear any problem on the sample video. Ohta-san uses 3 same strings on 1st, 2nd and 3rd in order to avoid such problem.
 
Ryan nailed it and I have noticed this tendency as well. All of my tenors and baritones are strung linear with wound 3rd & 4th strings which eliminates this issue. I have used a wound 3rd string with great success when stringing reentrant.

I have used D'Addario NYL026W or the Thomastik CF27 for the #3 spot. The former is. 026" and the latter is. 027" in diameter, both are well suited for tenor length scale. You can go down to NYL024W for concert which is. 024" diameter. These diameters work well with florocarbon sets. As jollyboy illustrated above you can go thicker if matching up existing nylon strings.
 
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Hey Kev,
I have the same complaint about non-wound C uke strings. Most strumming players don't even notice it, and one is most likely to hear it come out in finger-picking and, as stated by Ryan, it can be more pronounced up the neck.

Actually, my Pono MGT was originally strung with the Mahana wound C set but I didn't appreciate it at the time and took it off.
After going through a ton of string sets I found that most all non-wound C's did come off sounding "thuddy", regardless of the instrument.
That was before I started playing with classical guitar strings.

As you know, I also use the Thomastik Infeld CF27 with great results. I was skeptical about dishing out $6usd for one string... but it was worth it.
-J =)
 
I think Recstar is right. The largest diameter string will always diminish in volume faster than the rest. With the short ukulele scale, it's more noticeable than on say a guitar or upright bass. In addition, I believe being near the center of the bridge has something to do with what you experience (yes, just my opinion with no real scientific evidence). I think this because it seems to me that the more carefully made ukuleles have this problem engineered out to some extent. Also, with the "dead" sounding string #3, you will almost always have the same issue to a lesser degree with #2. (Admittedly, the string diameter explanation works for this factor, too.)
 
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After a recent post about dead notes on Opio Tenors, I pulled out my Opio and all of my other tenors. All are fluorocarbon or Aquila strings. Every one had a less "lively" note on the third string, all at C#/Db.

Then Andrew at HMS verified the Opio "issue" which seems to be inherent on all of my tenor ukuleles (Kala, Outdoor Ukulele, and Lanikai). At this point, my hypothesis is that there is a less lively place on every Tenor scale instrument in that general area. More reading has informed me that there are less lively places on every instrument, but right now that C String is getting the attention.

A wound string might help the issue...I am not going to do that.
 
After a recent post about dead notes on Opio Tenors, I pulled out my Opio and all of my other tenors. All are fluorocarbon or Aquila strings. Every one had a less "lively" note on the third string, all at C#/Db.

Then Andrew at HMS verified the Opio "issue" which seems to be inherent on all of my tenor ukuleles (Kala, Outdoor Ukulele, and Lanikai). At this point, my hypothesis is that there is a less lively place on every Tenor scale instrument in that general area. More reading has informed me that there are less lively places on every instrument, but right now that C String is getting the attention.

A wound string might help the issue...I am not going to do that.

Hello Choirguy,
Can you link any external evidence to your assertions?
Yes, I have read what Andrew said but that seems to be with Opio and not every instrument. (from what I understand)
Perhaps some of the builders can chime in.
The reason I say this, I haven't found any dead spots/or less lively spots on my Breedlove and I play up and down the fretboard with no tonal degradation issues of any string.
i couldn't say the same for my two Pono or the KoAloha soprano pineapple. (perhaps that is why they belong to other people now)
 
I will add that virtually every uke I've played has had some idiosyncrasies somewhere along the fretboard. It's par the course with a short scale fretted instrument. Good design can hide and at times eliminate resonance issues with wolf frequencies or phase cancellation type effects but otherwise one can expect a note here or there to sound "different".
 
Hello Choirguy,
Can you link any external evidence to your assertions?
Yes, I have read what Andrew said but that seems to be with Opio and not every instrument. (from what I understand)
Perhaps some of the builders can chime in.
The reason I say this, I haven't found any dead spots/or less lively spots on my Breedlove and I play up and down the fretboard with no tonal degradation issues of any string.
i couldn't say the same for my two Pono or the KoAloha soprano pineapple. (perhaps that is why they belong to other people now)

I can only tell you what I have experienced on my own instruments, with my own ears. If you play every note on every string on my tenors (particularly the top 5 frets) and compare sustain, there is a difference on the 3rd string around the 3rd fret. I didn't even notice until the Opio thread occured. That could steal my joy in the instrument, but it hasn't.

It doesn't mean that you won't get any sustain..even my Opio has sustain on the C#. But the amount of that sustain in that C#/Db range (sometimes a half-step above or below) on every one of my instruments is less on that string on that fret. That doesn't mean that it is a completely dead note...there is just less sustain. And it makes sense to me, as if all the instruments share a common scale length, that strings would have a similar reaction at a specific frequency.

I'm not looking to pick a fight (I never do) but I'm invested enough in it to do a YouTube study with accompanying frequency analysis (I did this years ago with metronome apps for iPhone and made many app developers angry).

If your Breedlove Tenor has perfect sustain and intonation on every note...that's wonderful. My brother-in-law just picked up a Breedlove Guitar from an auction site for a great price. I know that they make great instruments.
 
Having a background in sound engineering, I tend to pay attention to things some people may not notice. For those of you who had trouble discerning what I was referring to in the link I provided in original post, here is another one where maybe it is more noticeable. Frankly, one of the reasons I asked this question is because it seems a lot of players I see doing sound samples are oblivious to it. And a lot of them are clearly damn good players.

http://www.theukulelesite.com/kanile-a-deluxe-koa-satin-slothead-tenor-cst.html

Interestingly, both times I went to look for a link, I just went to HMS and the first instrument I chose randomly to listen to had the issue I was referring to. I am wondering (aloud) if koa has a greater tendency for this. I have two Mya Moe Ukes I purchased second hand here on UU with non traditional wood combos, and neither of them has this specific problem. I agree with Ryan (Recstar) that every uke has some imperfections somewhere on the neck. But it seems maybe ukes constructed of all Koa (back/sides/top) tend to display this problem. I have purchased 12 ukes in last few months and my (all Koa) Kanilea super concert is the only one that really has this issue to the point where I am bothered by it.

I appreciate the input on string options from DUD and Jason. The idea of spending $6-$8 on a single string is kind of extreme, but I have noticed some of the professional uke players and even some of the members here are using hybrid combinations of strings in order to get the ideal tone that makes their playing experience as enjoyable as it can be.
 
I can only tell you what I have experienced on my own instruments, with my own ears. If you play every note on every string on my tenors (particularly the top 5 frets) and compare sustain, there is a difference on the 3rd string around the 3rd fret. I didn't even notice until the Opio thread occured. That could steal my joy in the instrument, but it hasn't.

It doesn't mean that you won't get any sustain..even my Opio has sustain on the C#. But the amount of that sustain in that C#/Db range (sometimes a half-step above or below) on every one of my instruments is less on that string on that fret. That doesn't mean that it is a completely dead note...there is just less sustain. And it makes sense to me, as if all the instruments share a common scale length, that strings would have a similar reaction at a specific frequency.

I'm not looking to pick a fight (I never do) but I'm invested enough in it to do a YouTube study with accompanying frequency analysis (I did this years ago with metronome apps for iPhone and made many app developers angry).

If your Breedlove Tenor has perfect sustain and intonation on every note...that's wonderful. My brother-in-law just picked up a Breedlove Guitar from an auction site for a great price. I know that they make great instruments.

Choirguy,
Thanks. I just wanted to know where you are coming from. (I do not want to fight)
I appreciate your input and I will revisit my Breedlove. Perhaps I need to do a sound sample and record on Audacity so I can see any fluctuations I am not hearing from "my player's ear" when I go through my notes.
For my Breedlove, maybe the word "perfect" is not right but perhaps the degradation is not as obvious to me as it was for the other ukes I have owned. I will reply again once I can get some data on my end.
Thanks again for your insight,
Johnson =)
 
After changing one of my ukes to an Aguila low G string set both the wound G and the C sounded as you describe, replaced them with the Thomastik CF27 and CF30 after reading about such here. A world of difference, another bonus is you get none, or at least almost none, of the string zip you normally get from wound. Might make for a pricey set of strings but well worth it to me.
 
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I just remembered, this came up awhile back and Recstar posted something from Southcoast concerning this issue:
http://www.southcoastukes.com/tunings.htm

Most important for our discussion is this bit from the article:
A luthier who understands acoustics and how to adjust his construction can give you an instrument that will handle those notes just fine, and you’ll have a fully resonant tuning, free from “wolfiness”. With a production instrument, you may also be fine, but it’s more a roll of the dice.


So, an ukulele can exist that is free of these issues, from what I gleaned from the article.
 
[/QUOTE]Most important for our discussion is this bit from the article:
A luthier who understands acoustics and how to adjust his construction can give you an instrument that will handle those notes just fine, and you’ll have a fully resonant tuning, free from “wolfiness”. With a production instrument, you may also be fine, but it’s more a roll of the dice.


So, an ukulele can exist that is free of these issues, from what I gleaned from the article.[/QUOTE]

Maybe, if this theme is discussed more, openly and in a constructive/non-critical way, even a company like Kanile'a (who is making beautiful and innovative instruments) could experiment and find a solution for this. At a minimum, they could consider using strings that are more customized to address the issue.

Since hearing a sound sample of Jason's Breedlove, I am definitely going to invest in the Thomastik's and see if it improves my super concerts playability and tone.

I am sure it is said a lot, but I appreciate this forum and the fact that so many people are willing to take the time to respond to new players/members questions.

Thanks!
 
This is true on some concert ukes too. Both my Kalas made me wanna pull my hair out. My Ohana had it with Aquilas, but with Worth Browns it didn't have this. I'd still be playing it if the neck wasn't warped. My Cocobolo has a little of it, with Aquila Lavas on. I'm switching to something else next string change. I tried wound strings (Thomastick) on one Kala, and it was no better. Our Romero Tiny Tenor doesn't have this problem at all. So I don't think it's my playing.
 
Interesting topic. I've noticed this too when listening to sound samples of various ukes. I have a Myrtle Mya Moe on the way, so I'm curious about your theory of it being related to Koa versus just strings. I haven't tried any wound C strings yet, but I've been thinking about picking up a set to try on my Kamaka.
 
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