Help with chord name

Oolongtea · Oct 20, 2016

Hi! I've been seeing this chord [2323] standard tuning a few times now, and each time with a different name: C dim, F# dim7, C dim7, Eflat dim7, Gflat dim7, ...).
I'm not advanced enough in music theory to guess chord names from the notes yet, so I'm a bit confused. Do all the names I listed correspond to this particular chord shape?

Uncle Rod Higuchi · Oct 20, 2016

there are basically 3 general chord forms for the Diminished chords
0101, 1212, and 2323.
Each form has 4 names based on the notes of each of the strings,
at the point where they are either open or held down.

Personally, I call them 1dim, 2dim, and 3dim respectively

of course, that does not help our bass player, who needs to know
the proper name of the chord in order to accompany us.

Anyway, each diminished chord form has 4 names, and, according
to Music Theory, each of those names for the same fingering,
depends on the key that uses it.

I do not know each form by their 4 names. As mentioned above,
they are 1dim, 2dim, or 3dim as far as I'm concerned

I generally call 0101 - Gdim as well as 1dim.

I call 1212 - Fdim or Ddim as well as 2dim.

and I call 2323 - Cdim or Adim as well as 3dim.

That's as far as I've gone. Whenever I find a diminished chord
name that I don't recognize, I try to find out if it's formed
0101, 1212, or 2323. Then when I see it again in the song,
I'm using my own names for that chord. Works for me

keep uke'in',

CheeseSandwich · Oct 20, 2016

Oolongtea said:
Hi! I've been seeing this chord [2323] standard tuning a few times now, and each time with a different name: C dim, F# dim7, C dim7, Eflat dim7, Gflat dim7, ...).
I'm not advanced enough in music theory to guess chord names from the notes yet, so I'm a bit confused. Do all the names I listed correspond to this particular chord shape?

Hey Oolongtea,

Uncle Rod is right. Dimished chords are super unique compared to all the other chords you have learned because there are only 3 chord shapes which will make all diminished chords. To understand why I think it would be helpful to examine a diminished chord formula.

When I finished the UU+ lesson for diminished chords, Aldrine noted that the diminished chord formula was 1-b3-b5-6 (aka to make a diminished chord we need the first note, a flat 3rd note, a flat 5th note, and the 6th note of a major scale). For example, let us use the C major scale to construct a C diminished chord. The notes in C major are C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C correct? The 1st note is C, the flat 3rd note is Eb, the flat 5th note is Gb, and the 6th note is A. Thus these 4 notes (C,Eb,Gb,A) make up a C diminished chord. If you go to your fretboard you will see that chord shape you are talking about [2323] contains all these notes! Thus this is a C diminished!

But the name C diminished is relative to our C major scale. The C note is on the third fret of the 1st string which acts as a root. What if we wanted the other 3 notes, Eb, Gb, and A, to act as root notes also? Well then we would make an Eb, Gb, and A major scale and apply our 1-b3-b5-6 formula. When doing so we will find that no matter which scale we use, we will end up with our 4 original notes of C,Eb,Gb,A. Thus these 4 chords C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim, and A dim are all the same. If you write out the major scale for each scale and apply our diminsihed formula you will see that there are only 3 locations (that uncle rod mentioned) which make distinct diminished chords. Thats why multiple dimished chords correspond to the same particular chord shape.

I am sorry if this was too much music theory. I hope this helped! If I made any mistakes with that explanation, hopefully someone will correct me

Gary52 · Oct 21, 2016

These are actually diminished seventh chords, but are generally referred to as diminished chords. Hence, you will see both of those names used.

UkeStuff · Oct 21, 2016

And to try to simplify things...

Diminished 7th Chords are made of up intervals (space between notes) that are a minor third apart, or 3 frets apart. In the end, the chord itself is made of the same notes for four "different" chords.

The diminished 7th usually leads back to the major or minor chord a 1/2 step above it.

In music theory, we determine what to call the chord by how it is spelled out in music (using thirds, skipping notes in between) and what they lead to.

So the cool part is that when you learn 2323, you learn four chords at once, and then also learn a moveable shape that can be used anywhere on the neck.

UkeStuff · Oct 21, 2016

CheeseSandwich said:
Hey Oolongtea,

Uncle Rod is right. Dimished chords are super unique compared to all the other chords you have learned because there are only 3 chord shapes which will make all diminished chords. To understand why I think it would be helpful to examine a diminished chord formula.

When I finished the UU+ lesson for diminished chords, Aldrine noted that the diminished chord formula was 1-b3-b5-6 (aka to make a diminished chord we need the first note, a flat 3rd note, a flat 5th note, and the 6th note of a major scale). For example, let us use the C major scale to construct a C diminished chord. The notes in C major are C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C correct? The 1st note is C, the flat 3rd note is Eb, the flat 5th note is Gb, and the 6th note is A. Thus these 4 notes (C,Eb,Gb,A) make up a C diminished chord. If you go to your fretboard you will see that chord shape you are talking about [2323] contains all these notes! Thus this is a C diminished!

But the name C diminished is relative to our C major scale. The C note is on the third fret of the 1st string which acts as a root. What if we wanted the other 3 notes, Eb, Gb, and A, to act as root notes also? Well then we would make an Eb, Gb, and A major scale and apply our 1-b3-b5-6 formula. When doing so we will find that no matter which scale we use, we will end up with our 4 original notes of C,Eb,Gb,A. Thus these 4 chords C dim, Eb dim, Gb dim, and A dim are all the same. If you write out the major scale for each scale and apply our diminsihed formula you will see that there are only 3 locations (that uncle rod mentioned) which make distinct diminished chords. Thats why multiple dimished chords correspond to the same particular chord shape.

I am sorry if this was too much music theory. I hope this helped! If I made any mistakes with that explanation, hopefully someone will correct me

If Aldrine's explanation works for you...go with it. In "pure" music theory, the last note isn't the 6th step of the scale...it is a double flat of the 7th note of the scale. On a ukulele and any other fretted or keyed instrument, the 6th step and the double flatted seventh step sound the same. On non-fretted instruments, they actually aren't the same notes.

I just add this because if you write a diminished 7th chord for any music theory teacher, and spell it 1, flat 3, flat 5, six...they'll mark it wrong.

And of course, if you are calling it a "six" then really, it should be a diminished six chord (that's where the term 7th comes from).

There are reasons to treat it as a double flat seventh...but probably not for most members of UU, who tend to be a lot sharper than many of the other tools in the shed. So again, if 1, flat 3, flat 5, 6 works for you...run with it.

mds725 · Oct 21, 2016

There are songs in The Daily Ukulele and Daily Ukulele Leap Year Edition books where the same shape diminishes seventh (for example, 2323, or what Uncle Rod refers to as 3rd diminished) is designated with different names in different parts of the song. As Uncle Rod suggested in his post, a diminished seventh chord may be named after any of the notes in the chord but is generally named after the root of the chord. Bass players work from the root notes of chords, so, in effect, what you decide to call a diminished seventh chord involves deciding what note you want the bass player to play when you play that chord.

An interesting feature of diminished seventh chords on ukuleles is that they repeat up the neck. If you move the diminished seventh chord shape up one fret from the 3rd diminished chord (i.e., 2323 to 3434), you're playing the 1st diminished chord again. So 0101 and 3434 are the same chord, 1212 and 4545 are the same chord, and 2323 and 5656 are the same chord. We play a song in one of my my Hawaiian music classes ("Model T") that calls for a certain diminished chord, and to make it interesting and add tension to the music, we play the same diminished chord in three different positions on the neck (1212 > 4545 > 7878). It sounds pretty cool.

CheeseSandwich · Oct 21, 2016

Choirguy said:
If Aldrine's explanation works for you...go with it. In "pure" music theory, the last note isn't the 6th step of the scale...it is a double flat of the 7th note of the scale. On a ukulele and any other fretted or keyed instrument, the 6th step and the double flatted seventh step sound the same. On non-fretted instruments, they actually aren't the same notes.

I just add this because if you write a diminished 7th chord for any music theory teacher, and spell it 1, flat 3, flat 5, six...they'll mark it wrong.

And of course, if you are calling it a "six" then really, it should be a diminished six chord (that's where the term 7th comes from).

There are reasons to treat it as a double flat seventh...but probably not for most members of UU, who tend to be a lot sharper than many of the other tools in the shed. So again, if 1, flat 3, flat 5, 6 works for you...run with it.

Thanks for the explanation

zztush · Oct 22, 2016

They are all dim7 (Gdim7, C#dim7, Edim7 and A#dim7). Their root notes (red circles) are sitting on just different strings. One shape with 4 names and he can move anywhere on the fret board.

upload imagem

Oolongtea · Oct 24, 2016

Thanks guys! For now I'll keep in mind that a single chord shape can have different names according to the root you decide to give it..
For the rest I'll bookmark this thread and read it again once I'm a little more up to speed with chord theory.

UkingViking · Oct 24, 2016

I have encountered several jazzy songs that apparently changes key during the song.
In one lead sheet I find the same diminished chord with two different names.
But I am relieved every time I find out, I just thought I had to learn two new unfamiliar chords, then it was just one...

Help with chord name

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