Booming Third String?

JackLuis

JackLuis

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My question is , "What causes a booming 3rd string?"

I have a very light weight Ohana concert (CK-22) with Fremont Blackline Low G strings on it, and if I strum it hard the C booms pretty badly.

I just got a Ohana TK-50G cedar topped tenor today and didn't care for the high G Aquila Super Nylgut strings it came with, though they intoned perfectly 1-12.

I like a dGBE tenor so I put some Fremont Bari-Tenor dGBE strings on it that I had from some testing I did earlier. The 3rd (G) string booms horribly!

I had good luck with standard Tenor Blacklines tuned down to dGBE on a couple of other tenors and wondered if the problem was caused by the diameter of the 3rd string? The normal tenor 3rd is 0.031" and the Bari-Tenor 3rd is 0.036". The 0.031" doesn't boom at all.

Is the booming caused by a too heavy 3rd string? I ask as technical curiosity. Is it a matter of too much vibrating mass of the 3rd as compared to the other strings?
 
The usual answer is that the open string is exciting the primary resonance of the body - if you hum into your sound hole you'll find a note which sounds noticeably louder.

One solution is to adopt a different tuning - D for a soprano, Bb for a tenor perhaps.

Another possible answer is to add some mass to the soundboard in the right place so as to move the resonance. If, for example, you could move your tenor from G to G# then the resonance probably wouldn't bother you. You can stick a lump of poster putty (large olive size) on the soundboard and move it around to see if it changes things. If you can find a spot which achieves that you want, reduce the size of the putty to the minimum which works. That's the weight you need, and that's where it should go (but on the inside is usually preferred!). Putty will fall off in time, but a flat metal weight with double-sided tape should work, and if you decide that's the final solution then you can glue it in place.
 
ProfChris said:
The usual answer is that the open string is exciting the primary resonance of the body - if you hum into your sound hole you'll find a note which sounds noticeably louder.

One solution is to adopt a different tuning - D for a soprano, Bb for a tenor perhaps.

Another possible answer is to add some mass to the soundboard in the right place so as to move the resonance. If, for example, you could move your tenor from G to G# then the resonance probably wouldn't bother you. You can stick a lump of poster putty (large olive size) on the soundboard and move it around to see if it changes things. If you can find a spot which achieves that you want, reduce the size of the putty to the minimum which works. That's the weight you need, and that's where it should go (but on the inside is usually preferred!). Putty will fall off in time, but a flat metal weight with double-sided tape should work, and if you decide that's the final solution then you can glue it in place.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this response Prof. I have read about this on David Hurd's website and also on Dirk's website. This topic is fascinating to me. I have noticed that the primary resonance varies noticeably from intstrument to instrument, and in my limited experience, Koa tops seem to be regularly problematic in standard C tuning on tenor bodies. One solution I have found in standard C tuning is that the use of a smooth wound C string seems to lessen the resonance. I use the Thomastik Infeld CF27 and my feeling is it is not only the wound string but the higher tension of this specific string that seems to be responsible for the difference.
 
JackLuis said:
My question is , "What causes a booming 3rd string?"

I have a very light weight Ohana concert (CK-22) with Fremont Blackline Low G strings on it, and if I strum it hard the C booms pretty badly.

I just got a Ohana TK-50G cedar topped tenor today and didn't care for the high G Aquila Super Nylgut strings it came with, though they intoned perfectly 1-12.

I like a dGBE tenor so I put some Fremont Bari-Tenor dGBE strings on it that I had from some testing I did earlier. The 3rd (G) string booms horribly!

I had good luck with standard Tenor Blacklines tuned down to dGBE on a couple of other tenors and wondered if the problem was caused by the diameter of the 3rd string? The normal tenor 3rd is 0.031" and the Bari-Tenor 3rd is 0.036". The 0.031" doesn't boom at all.

Is the booming caused by a too heavy 3rd string? I ask as technical curiosity. Is it a matter of too much vibrating mass of the 3rd as compared to the other strings?
Click to expand...

I suggest trying a higher tension string Jack. I have had good experiences with the Thomastic Infeld guitar strings. I would suggest trying CF35 for D, CF30 for G and CF27 for B. You can use whatever E string you prefer ie; fluorocarbon or nylon. I have noticed that the thicker gage nylon strings seems to balance better with the Thomastik Infeld strings. The strings you have on there now, are probably put together with 3"-4" longer scale in mind.
 
Mezcalero said:
I suggest trying a higher tension string Jack. I have had good experiences with the Thomastic Infeld guitar strings. I would suggest trying CF35 for D, CF30 for G and CF27 for B. You can use whatever E string you prefer ie; fluorocarbon or nylon. I have noticed that the thicker gage nylon strings seems to balance better with the Thomastik Infeld strings. The strings you have on there now, are probably put together with 3"-4" longer scale in mind.
Click to expand...

Well the strings are designed for a tenor tuned to G. I had them on a Zebra wood laminate and didn't have as much of a problem. Perhaps the Cedar Tenor is more responsive, quite likely. A higher tension string would be even heavier, wouldn't it?

I'm asking this to find out why. I am going to get some D'Addario Carbons, which I've I had the best luck with in a while. After spending over $300 for this beautiful Cedar and solid Rosewood Tenor, what's another $8? In fact I'm going to do that right now, just need to put on some Pants!
 
JackLuis said:
I had them on a Zebra wood laminate and didn't have as much of a problem. Perhaps the Cedar Tenor is more responsive, quite likely. A higher tension string would be even heavier, wouldn't it?

I'm asking this to find out why.
Click to expand...

I believe that the hardness of the instrument body wood is a contributing factor. Because rosewood is relatively hard you are more likely to get resonance issues/booming with certain notes. Southcoast suggest (following Hurd) trying a linear D tuning at tenor scale.
 
My experience as a builder is that the lighter I build the more I risk this kind of sympathetic resonance. So if anything, I'd expect rosewood to be less problematic (though I've not built a rosewood body, so can't offer personal experience).

I would, though, expect fluorocarbon strings to make this worse, while Nylgut, nylon or wound strings would reduce it. Fluorocarbon seems to me to produce a stronger fundamental and fewer inharmonic overtones, and this would excite the resonance more strongly if they coincide.
 
I just swapped out the Black lines for a set of Low G D'Addario Carbons. The G string booms now! I did have the foresight to get a set of high g strings at the same time so I'll swap the G out if it doesn't settle down after a few hours. the G sting is 0.041" and that may be too much for a cedar top. I think the cedar top is the problem. It's just too responsive for a low toned string.

I may have to Frankenstein a set for this Ohana to get the sound I want. I do like the TK-50G, it's soooo pretty and feels so good, but it is sensitive. I've got a 1/2 set of Worth Brown Fats High g, that worked on my Zebra Tenor, in reserve if the D'Addarios don't work out.
 
JackLuis said:
I just swapped out the Black lines for a set of Low G D'Addario Carbons. The G string booms now!
Click to expand...

Dude! It's always been the G string booming - it was the G string before (3rd string - dGBE) :p :)

ProfChris said:
The usual answer is that the open string is exciting the primary resonance of the body - if you hum into your sound hole you'll find a note which sounds noticeably louder.
Click to expand...

This is almost certainly the issue. As you've noticed yourself before it tends to happen with C on a soprano, and G(3) on a tenor. The position of the string - 3rd, 4th or whatever - is irrelevant. The note that it's tuned to is the key factor.
 
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Well I switched the G string for a High G and lost the boomieness. But the high pitch is still not what I wanted in this Uke. I do prefer the D'Addarios to the Aquilas. I was trying a recording before I went crazy and started switching stings so I'll record the same thing again with the D'As and compare to see if I just spent money and time to end up in the same place!

Yes Jollyboy, It is the thick string. I'm convinced that the extra mass vibrating is the cause, and the responsiveness of the instrument.

I really should have recorded the boomy string sets as a warning to other Ukers with cedar tops. :wallbash: In a few Days I'll do a review of theis TK-50G and show it off a bit. ;-)

Still I do like the way this Uke plays and is intoned. Mim did a nice setup on it and has an understated elegance that I really like. I'll just play it like this for a while, maybe I'll get used to C6 again? I have two other tenors that are tuned dGBE and a Baritone so it's not like I have to play just one.

Maybe Ill try some nylons on my concert spruce topped CK-22 to see if I can low G it and not have the boomieness?
 
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JackLuis said:
Well I switched the G string for a High G and lost the boomieness. But the high pitch is still not what I wanted in this Uke. I do prefer the D'Addarios to the Aquilas. I was trying a recording before I went crazy and started switching stings so I'll record the same thing again with the D'As and compare to see if I just spent money and time to end up in the same place!

Yes Jollyboy, It is the thick string. I'm convinced that the extra mass vibrating is the cause, and the responsiveness of the instrument.

I really should have recorded the boomy string sets as a warning to other Ukers with cedar tops. :wallbash: In a few Days I'll do a review of theis TK-50G and show it off a bit. ;-)

Still I do like the way this Uke plays and is intoned. Mim did a nice setup on it and has an understated elegance that I really like. I'll just play it like this for a while, maybe I'll get used to C6 again? I have two other tenors that are tuned dGBE and a Baritone so it's not like I have to play just one.

Maybe Ill try some nylons on my concert spruce topped CK-22 to see if I can low G it and not have the boomieness?
Click to expand...


A cedar top is the not the cause of this problem......I have a couple cedar topped ukes that do not display this issue. Every uke is a law unto itself, wood is wood and each piece varies greatly. I have played identical models with identical woods and they exhibited different tendencies.
 
JackLuis said:
Well I switched the G string for a High G and lost the boomieness. But the high pitch is still not what I wanted in this Uke. I do prefer the D'Addarios to the Aquilas. I was trying a recording before I went crazy and started switching stings so I'll record the same thing again with the D'As and compare to see if I just spent money and time to end up in the same place!

Yes Jollyboy, It is the thick string. I'm convinced that the extra mass vibrating is the cause, and the responsiveness of the instrument.

I really should have recorded the boomy string sets as a warning to other Ukers with cedar tops. :wallbash: In a few Days I'll do a review of theis TK-50G and show it off a bit. ;-)

Still I do like the way this Uke plays and is intoned. Mim did a nice setup on it and has an understated elegance that I really like. I'll just play it like this for a while, maybe I'll get used to C6 again? I have two other tenors that are tuned dGBE and a Baritone so it's not like I have to play just one.

Maybe Ill try some nylons on my concert spruce topped CK-22 to see if I can low G it and not have the boomieness?
Click to expand...

When I first started playing, I far and away preferred all fluoro low G, specifically D'Addario's. But over time, due to this same issue of boomy low G on some of my instruments, and through my research on UU, I discovered smooth wound low G strings. There are various options, my favorites are Freemont Soloist, and Thomastik Infeld CF30. If you want to get this uke back to low G tuning I recommend you try a smooth wound low G.
 
Mezcalero said:
When I first started playing, I far and away preferred all fluoro low G, specifically D'Addario's. But over time, due to this same issue of boomy low G on some of my instruments, and through my research on UU, I discovered smooth wound low G strings. There are various options, my favorites are Freemont Soloist, and Thomastik Infeld CF30. If you want to get this uke back to low G tuning I recommend you try a smooth wound low G.
Click to expand...

I had thought about a Fremont soloist, but bought a Low G set of D'A's which had a 0.041" low G string. The Fremont is only 0.030" and may be just the thing to get a low G on my Rosy. I have a set of High D'A's from which I pulled the High G string, the #3 (C string) is 0.0319" and may work too. Since that set is broken up, I may just try that instead of going out in the rain to get a soloist.

But before I do that (change another string!) I'll try backing this set down to dGBE, it works fine on my Zebrawood Tenor and it is pretty responsive, just not as responsive as Rosy appears to be. From what Booli said, that may improve the sustain too?
 
Well I backed down to dGBE and Guess What? The G string (3rd 0.0319") started booming. Only a little but it definitely can be a problem if I strum too hard on a 'Hawaiian' A/D7, but on a barred A/D7 it's okay. I guess Rosy can't take a heavier string that low in pitch, due to her top or light build or???

She does sound pretty nice dGBE but the G boom is a just a little too much. But maybe I'm overly sensitive to it? I can mask the boom with technique but when I forget I can hear it. Or maybe I should just play her C6 and learn to harmonize when I sing? ;)
 
Have you tried sticking a piece of Blu-tack on the front or back? (I don't know what it's called in the USA but it is "a reusable putty-like pressure-sensitive adhesive commonly used to attach lightweight objects to walls or other dry surfaces".) The easiest way to find the right spot is to keep strumming the uke on a booming chord while a friend lightly presses a clean fingertip in various places until the boom stops. Then stick a blob of blutack there - with any luck you can put it on the inside. If you stretch the blutack a few times before forming the blob it will stick better - I've had one inside a bowed string instrument for years and it has never come off.
 
ukatee said:
Have you tried sticking a piece of Blu-tack on the front or back? (I don't know what it's called in the USA but it is "a reusable putty-like pressure-sensitive adhesive commonly used to attach lightweight objects to walls or other dry surfaces".) The easiest way to find the right spot is to keep strumming the uke on a booming chord while a friend lightly presses a clean fingertip in various places until the boom stops. Then stick a blob of blutack there - with any luck you can put it on the inside. If you stretch the blutack a few times before forming the blob it will stick better - I've had one inside a bowed string instrument for years and it has never come off.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried that. Rosy isn't as bad this morning and I think I can adjust my style enough to make it unnoticeable. She sounds real good dGBE and gCEA so I'll play her for a couple of months and let the strings accommodate themselves. I've got a 0.028" wound GHS string that might work out for a low G, but I'm tired of changing strings for a while.
 
This weekend I swapped the 0.0319" C string out for a PhD 0.027" E string and lost the C boom in C6 tuning. Which leads me to believe this problem is due to vibrating string mass in this Uke. The PHD are Poly something and have a higher specif mass than Fc's but the smaller diameter seems to work well and tension is comparable to the other FC strings. Intonation is just about perfect down to the 12 fret and beyond is effected by finger placement.

The tone is nice and very different from my Zebrawood ukes. I'll just play her like this for a while then try the 0.028 GHS as a low G to see if that will work for a low G. If it works I'll buy a Fremont soloist. I've spent over $200 on stings over the last two years in experimenting and need to concentrate on practice for a while.
 
Today I switched the D'Addarios back to dGBE and surprise. The boom is under control and Rosy is singing!
That Phd E string seemed to do the trick! I think she just needed to clear her throat? I've played her about 10-12 hours in the last 10 days. Today it was like she found her voice. She sounds better an better the more I play her. It's not that I'm improving but like she is learning how to play. Picking single notes is glorious.

I had a hard time because my neighbor and Uke Buddy convinced me to go to the gym with him over the last three days. My left arm is so sore I could hardly hold Rosy's head up and play an F. I did decide to join the gym though and the exercise is good for me. The only problem, aside from getting in betterr shape, is that the Hot Tub after the workout wreaks havoc on my fingertip callus so I have to hold my left hand up out of the water.
 
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