Designing for Disappointment

You are nearly right sequoia...you also have to find a way of driving all the energy to the front. And the socks? Every day; then you have your first constant :)

Yes! Thank you Pete. It is the top, but it's not only the top. I've been prototyping and have made several instruments with essentially the same top, all of which sound different -- some just slightly and some radically. There's no avoiding the fact that it's the totality of the system -- thus the socks.
 
About 3 years ago I made some fundamental design changes to my fronts and backs. I got more volume and sustain and a slightly more complex sound. Without letting this oen go suffice to say, I 'tightened up' certain areas of the instrument...
 
First, everybody that builds musical instruments is a “designer”. It seems like the initial thrust of this thread was to not take your designs too far afield. That was the recipe for “designing for failure”.

Coincidentally, here’s something that was just posted; something I thought was somewhat apropos to the theme of this thread.



Obviously we’re looking at a very well-studied and talented luthier here. Here is his site:

http://lute.cepelak.cz/introe.html

But I would guess that his knowledge of how to produce sound in general kept this instrument from being a complete financial disaster. In other words, he didn’t spend as much time on this creation as one might imagine. Of course Ukulele luthiers aren’t this knowledgeable, right? They don’t get involved in anything this complicated, do they?

Well, maybe not quite this complicated, but the closest thing I can think of to something like this in the Ukulele World is the Harp Ukulele. And the two fellows I know of who have dabbled in that design have posted here: Duane “no longneck” Heilman and the OP: Pete “think payroll” Howlett.

It seems to me you guys did a great job. So what happened? Was that the experience that turned you’all against “experiments”? Were those your “designs for failure”? Do you maybe use that experience to “slap yourself in the face” when the desire to scratch that design itch hits? (though Duane has since built "ukulele-like" instruments). Seems to me that even if it didn’t make you’all big bucks, it may have given you both some cred (as well as personal satisfaction).

And here's a question. Not that they have to be mutually exclusive, but should the small batch luthier offer alternatives to standard instruments, offer simple standard instruments of high quality, or focus on fancy woods and adornments?
 
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To respond, but keep that response short, building harp ukes of various sizes and shapes was much fun, but time consuming. It was also not possible to get paid for that time element that made it a continues effort. I certainly don't regret experimenting with harp ukes or ULO's, but the money/sales weren't there to sustain either. Same goes for the 8 violins and other instruments I have constructed over the years.


First, everybody that builds musical instruments is a “designer”. It seems like the initial thrust of this thread was to not take your designs too far afield. That was the recipe for “designing for failure”.

Coincidentally, here’s something that was just posted; something I thought was somewhat apropos to the theme of this thread.



Obviously we’re looking at a very well-studied and talented luthier here. Here is his site:

http://lute.cepelak.cz/introe.html

But I would guess that his knowledge of how to produce sound in general kept this instrument from being a complete financial disaster. In other words, he didn’t spend as much time on this creation as one might imagine. Of course Ukulele luthiers aren’t this knowledgeable, right? They don’t get involved in anything this complicated, do they?

Well, maybe not quite this complicated, but the closest thing I can think of to something like this in the Ukulele World is the Harp Ukulele. And the two fellows I know of who have dabbled in that design have posted here: Duane “no longneck” Heilman and the OP: Pete “think payroll” Howlett.

It seems to me you guys did a great job. So what happened? Was that the experience that turned you’all against “experiments”? Were those your “designs for failure”? Do you maybe use that experience to “slap yourself in the face” when the desire to scratch that design itch hits? (though Duane has since built "ukulele-like" instruments). Seems to me that even if it didn’t make you’all big bucks, it may have given you both some cred (as well as personal satisfaction).

And here's a question. Not that they have to be mutually exclusive, but should the small batch luthier offer alternatives to standard instruments, offer simple standard instruments of high quality, or focus on fancy woods and adornments?
 
I've been following this thread and was not going to post, for I am not a luthier, nor do I have any skin in the game for either side, however, for better or worse, I feel compelled to speak now...

I wish folks would be able to find within themselves, the compassion to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

It saddens me deeply to see that one person's opinion has made another feel unwelcome or slighted, despite the absence of malice.

If a mutual understanding is not possible, maybe it is possible to agree to disagree without folks feeling that their ego has been bruised? (remember opinions are like belly-buttons, in that EVERYONE has one :))

I am no expert in these matters, but I am asking those that have been involved to please forgive each other, at least for a moment, and step back and have a think about what has happened here.

I have no authority, nor do I want any here, I am just an observer trying to facilitate decorum...

Thank you sincerely, for reading my humble words. :)

I am certainly no luthier, but I know human nature pretty well. And I've met some luthiers, some very successful, some moderately successful, and some failures. The failures weren't necessarily the worst builders, but one for instance, refused to build concert size ukes. That and overpricing led to ruin, quickly. And I know lots of ukulele players, at all levels. And I know most of them have NO idea what they need or want in an instrument. We ukers can be real PITAs.
I know just enough to know that I agree with Booli. We don't all have to like each other, but we do have to get along. Anyone coming here looking for a fight can just leave, for all I care.
 
Damn! I knew I should have changed my socks before shaping that last neck! You knew the secret all along and didn’t tell us?

Yes the socks are important, but I forgot to mention the "underwear factor". Brown is a good color. Especially when your handheld router decides to launch itself into space. I favor the "earth-tone" color scheme line from Sears when I cut in binding channels. Makes all the difference and my ukes sound great.

But seriously... Judging your parameter changes is so subjective without quantitative measurement that it makes the whole exercise almost meaningless. True, a dog is a dog and a crap sounding instrument is obvious, but the subtle changes in sound are hard to track in two closely sounding instruments. At least for me. And then there is taste and preference of individual players. I built an instrument too light to my taste with no bottom and a buyer just loved how it responded to a "light touch". So there is no one size fits all. All I know is what I like and that is what I strive for.
 
The harp ukulele is a 'novelty'. It is hard to play well and it generall drives you into a single style of playing. I can't make one for less than $2500/$3000 and people are simply not willing to pay. Likewise, every year I get inquiries to build a Weissenborn 'like the one Jack Rose played' Bearing in mins the koa alone would now cost me landed in the UK close on $1000, when I quote $4000 for the work I get no follow up. The market will stand what it stands. Despite my 'position' in the building world I still cannot command the prices in Europe I would get if I was living and selling in the US or Japan. A lot of my materials and consummables are imported from the US which is killing profits because of the low exchange rate due to the Brexit fiasco!

It's a bald fact that business is all about cash in, cash out and making sure the former is greater than the latter. It's also an usual month if there is not some 'extraordinary expenditure' I hadn't planned for that arises, gobbling up my profits/savings. If this is the sole means of making income for anyone, they have to concentrate on the bottom line and taking it back to the theme of the post, designing for disappointment is not a major activity I will or can engage in regularly... I say regularly because I have two new designs in developoment stage that I am squeezing in on my 'free time' such as it is :) I must keep my eye in the money and if that sounds mercenary then I am a merecenary. A solvent mercenary :)

"Payroll Pete" as I am to be known from now on it seems :) :)
 
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Someone make me an 11" six string guitalele nino in solid burl wood please.
And give me a good bargain price on it so I can sell it off for no loss if I don't like it after having it for awhile.

Bc I see you luthier as a vending machine service for my center of the world. I know not of your livelihood and needing to put food on the table.


Hehe

I kid
 
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Just as no two luthiers are alike, it seems to me that no two ukes are, either. As stated above, it is difficult for a maker to evaluate whether slight changes in design or contruction have brought about any improvement. I would add that it would be extremely difficult to build two ukeleles that sound exactly the same. You could take timber that came from the same tree, and build to exactly the same design, and my guess is that the two siblings would still have their own distinctive characters. I would expect them to be very similar, but not just the same.
 
"Payroll Pete" as I am to be known from now on it seems :) :)

Ha! As "finkdaddy" said, a badge of honor indeed. I've always maintained some degree of income from furniture design, but having been involved in "trades" for much of my time, the importance Pete places on being able to generate a living from full time luthier work is essential not just for him, but as a guide for others as to how the trade can go forward. Still, it's also instructive to hear how he (and Duane) squeeze in time for the more esoteric pursuits and how they use that experience to expand their knowledge of the art.

A couple of folks have mentioned the difficulty of knowing how much of an effect a change in material or construction will have on sound. It's not difficult, it's just time consuming. After being away from instrument production for a few years, we're in the final stage of the first new design.

Based on an old model, we first built two new ones with identical construction and materials but different body shapes and volumes. Not dramatically different, but not dificult to hear the difference either. Then had to change the soundboard (a local material proved to be unavailable in knot-free boards without trmendous waste). The (hopefully) last model is underway now with another soundboard change. I pushed it a bit by including a construction change as well. Hopefully it won't come back to bite me, but I think I know what's going on now well enough with this particular design to be able to differentiate one effect from the other (if not I'll be kicking myself).

So that's the key. Build one instrument and hold onto it until you get newer version in hand. Try not to change more than one thing (try!). If there's a difference, it won't be difficult to hear. If you really produce something bad along the way, then you just have to eat it, but with a good starting point, you'll generally just have variations on a theme, not something you wouldn't want your name on.
 
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Thanks Dirk. There has to be a foil to the perceived concept of why we do what we do: this idea - "I am doing it for the love of it." Making a living from art is a fine line between ruthlessness and magnaminity. We should not be ashamed of charging a good price for good work.

As far as innovation and sound goes in the Pete Howlett workshop: I am happy the restless spirit of inspiration rarely needs to visit these days, well not for ukes anyway. It is preoccupied in me with stuff like this which is all about making a $7000 machine earn its keep!

IMG_1221 2.jpg
 
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