Amp Advice

Cheers Brother Brad! :) (link down below in my signature for said FAQ)



Yes, output of MISI is going to be guitar/instrument level, PA system house mixer INPUT is likely to be MIC level, thus an impedance mismatch, and needing at least a DI box to go into house mixer. If the church has a sound guy, they likely have an 'audio snake' on the stage for all the cables to plug in.

Such a snake is usually using XLR connectors for BALANCED audio to cancel hum and RF interference due to cable runs to the mixer being much longer than a standard guitar cable.

Th iRig Acoustic Stage, as well as the LR Baggs Five.0 AND the MISI are all 1/4" (6.35mm) output and NOT XLR output, as well as UNBALANCED, so you need to go from the instrument into either a DI BOX or preamp/DI with an XLR output....

Something like the Behringer ADI-21 ($39 everywhere) does this handily and on the cheap
. and gives you control over your sound in a foot pedal at the stage, otherwise you can spend for the LR Baggs DI/preamps ($149+) or the Fishman Aura or Zoom A3 ($299+) or a RADIAL PZ/DI ($399) or RADIAL TONEBONE ($349).

Others have suggested lots of good choices.

..but before going off and spending $300+ on a Fishman Loudbox Mini or Roland AC amp or any kind of preamp/DI box, I would attend at least a few rehearsals with the sound guy present and go with the flow, for if the house mixer out to the PA is done right, you might not need to buy anything....

Also if there is an acoustic guitar player, look at his setup, ask him questions and take some notes as to what he uses in his rig and out to the house PA system.
Thanks Booli. I figured you'd pop up and give your input. I will definitely attend practices first to see if I fit in well with the group and what (if anything) I need. I would like to get a better amp at some point, so all the advice given above is very helpful. I'll report back on how things go at church.
 
Exactly. Well said. This is what I was trying to say. Lots of ways to address amplification. Easy to spend a lot that is unneeded.

Thanks katysax! :)

Mostly pretty much what Booli said.

Thanks Rick! :)

...(If you don't have to put a battery in or charge up your pickup in MISI style then your pickup is probably passive.)

The MiSi pickup system has an active preamp built-in to the endpin jack and is powered by a super-capacitor instead of a battery which is rechargeable via the included adapter, or via a 9v battery (using a guitar cable).

...I get what people say about sacrificing control if you go direct into a PA. That said, when you start playing with other people in bands or at services then it is time to grow up and accept that it's not about you being in control any more. You're part of a whole. If you have an experienced sound guy at church then let him set levels and EQ - it'll sound much better and mean you have less to worry about.

When you have a bunch of players all with their own backline amps it can become a messy nightmare. The sound guy can't keep things together because everyone thinks he/she knows best how to twiddle the knobs. Also, set up and break down are much quicker and tidier when as many people as possible DI into the PA...

This is good advice, especially if you are new to performing. You already have to deal with performance anxiety, getting the songs right, as well as actively LISTENING to the rest of the band while playing, otherwise you are just part of a hot mess...

With experience, one can learn to multitask these better without stress, and then add more issues to worry about...while in the meantime surrendering the audio control to the expertise of the 'sound guy', who if responsive, and you ask nicely can tweak your sound for you so you can hear yourself better on stage.

Also, some gigs that I worked as a musician, OR as the 'sound guy', everything was done with Shure SM57 mics ON the amps for EACH performer as well as the drummer, and SM58 mics for all vocals. SOMETIMES, this is easier, and sometimes this just becomes a cacauphony of mindless noise since everyone on stage wants to turn it up to eleventy, which eventually punishes the audience with a muddy mix and once the volume reaches about 100 decibels, folks might leave because in a venue that holds 150 people, unless the crowd is talking all the time (like in a bar or pub) that volume level might not be necessary at all.

Also #2, lots of church sanctuaries are DESIGNED to be an efficient acoustic chamber, and a PA system is usually used with a mic at the podium, and only is loud enough for the folks in the back pews to hear the service and not at stadium concert volume.

Churches and other venues have existed long before PA systems and amps were born, and it is very possible to smother the audience with a wall of sound that either deafening and/or unintelligible noise.

I really like that artists like Brandie Carlisle did a world tour with just acoustic instruments, and ZERO PA system or amplification, and most of the performances were in small churches. Yes, she sang WITH the full band and could still be heard well, and everyone just played SOFTER. I did not get to see any of the shows, but what I read, the audience was mostly 100 seats and as such a very intimate setting.
 
Thanks Booli. I figured you'd pop up and give your input. I will definitely attend practices first to see if I fit in well with the group and what (if anything) I need. I would like to get a better amp at some point, so all the advice given above is very helpful. I'll report back on how things go at church.

You're most welcome!

There's lots of good advice here on this thread for you (from everyone here).

After you scope out the scenario, please do report back here, as this is a well-worn path for many of us, and we can offer advice to help you based upon real-world experience with navigating lots of issues you may see, and in the end can help to prevent and/or defeat any potential frustrations or other problems for you.

I am excited for you that you are stepping up and stepping OUT on stage, even as part of a group. :music:

If you do enjoy it, this could be a launchpad for future public performance, either solo or as part of an ensemble. :)
 
So it turns out that this advice from Booli was spot on........

"but before going off and spending $300+ on a Fishman Loudbox Mini or Roland AC amp or any kind of preamp/DI box, I would attend at least a few rehearsals with the sound guy present and go with the flow, for if the house mixer out to the PA is done right, you might not need to buy anything"

I don't need to have anything extra. I went to practice last night and the leader/guitar player told me that I don't need anything other than a cable to plug into my uke pick-up. No pre-amp/DI needed. My new ukulele with a pick-up hasn't arrived yet, so for this Sunday I'll just have a mic set up. Worked fine for practice last night. The folks in the group were very welcoming and liked the sound that the ukulele added.
 
So it turns out that this advice from Booli was spot on........

"but before going off and spending $300+ on a Fishman Loudbox Mini or Roland AC amp or any kind of preamp/DI box, I would attend at least a few rehearsals with the sound guy present and go with the flow, for if the house mixer out to the PA is done right, you might not need to buy anything"

I don't need to have anything extra. I went to practice last night and the leader/guitar player told me that I don't need anything other than a cable to plug into my uke pick-up. No pre-amp/DI needed. My new ukulele with a pick-up hasn't arrived yet, so for this Sunday I'll just have a mic set up. Worked fine for practice last night. The folks in the group were very welcoming and liked the sound that the ukulele added.

Sounds good. That's pretty much the ideal outcome. :)
 
Thanks. Is the cable one thing I could get away with buying at Guitar Center or is it best to order online?
 
Thanks. Is the cable one thing I could get away with buying at Guitar Center or is it best to order online?

A cable is a cable*. At this point, go to GC and get something that feels sturdy, appears well built, and the dudes recommend ($15-20) Get something with metal jacks that can unscrew - not a molded plastic ones (so you can fix it down the road). Fender, Planet Waves, ProCo, etc... It will suit you fine until you need/want something better. At which point you'll have experience listening to your plugged in uke and can appreciate the difference in the next level of cable.

* - But that said, a cable is NOT a cable. In my experience, comparing Mogami to Fender and Planet Waves like that post does is apples and oranges. Mogami is really in another class. I've had my own and heard other player's "good" Fender cables crackle and go silent - along with many other "good" cables. In all my years on stage, running sound, talking story with players and soundguys, I've never heard a single story or rumor about a Mogami giving up the ghost.

(Semi) Pro tip: Buy bulk cable (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GoldInst) and a couple Switchcraft jacks (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TSMCabConSw) and learn to solder. Save some serious bucks on a very quality cable and (bonus) you'll be able to repair almost any cable in the future!
 
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Update.....It went great at church this morning. We had two practices sessions, and I practiced a lot at home. I especially had to practice standing up since 99% of the time at home, at uke workshops, and at jams I'm sitting. Standing to play was a new experience. I stayed focused on my music while we were playing during the service, and all went well. I had compliments from the other band members & members of the congregation on how they liked the ukulele sound.

I apologize for my total lack of appropriate technical terminology, but it looks like the sound system thing will be no big deal. The two guitar players plug into a large box thingie that sits on the floor behind the band/piano area. The electric guitar player does have a DI (?)with a pedal, but the acoustic guitar player plugged straight in. They told me that all I need once I have my uke with the MiSi pick up is a regular cable. The main guitar guy said he thinks he has an extra cable with the XLR end that I can use. He also has an extra XLR adapter I can use if he can't find the the other cable for me.
 
I apologize for my total lack of appropriate technical terminology, but it looks like the sound system thing will be no big deal. The two guitar players plug into a large box thingie that sits on the floor behind the band/piano area. The electric guitar player does have a DI (?)with a pedal, but the acoustic guitar player plugged straight in. They told me that all I need once I have my uke with the MiSi pick up is a regular cable. The main guitar guy said he thinks he has an extra cable with the XLR end that I can use. He also has an extra XLR adapter I can use if he can't find the the other cable for me.

Did the box thingie look like this: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/audio-snakes? If so, maybe Booli will chime in on running straight from 1/4" to XLR into the snake. I've never seen it done. I imagine that without the ground the cable suck is pretty huge, depending on how far away the board is. Not how I'd do it, but maybe it works. Now I'm curious...
 
Did the box thingie look like this: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/audio-snakes? If so, maybe Booli will chime in on running straight from 1/4" to XLR into the snake. I've never seen it done. I imagine that without the ground the cable suck is pretty huge, depending on how far away the board is. Not how I'd do it, but maybe it works. Now I'm curious...

Aye. Likely they are using a 'stage snake box' similar to this:

71-oZmvKB1L._SX425_.jpg


Which has both XLR and 1/4" connectors, often referred to as 'XLR combo jacks', as shown in the closeup below, which can use either an XLR or a 1/4" plug without any adapters (that are fiddly and can cause volume/impedance issues due to 'insertion loss'):

neutrik-combo.jpg


Often these are mic-level impedance inputs (less than 1K Ohm) and if the mixer at the other end has a trim control to boost the gain or an impedance matching circuit, they will work well.

More expensive versions of these have an impedance-matching transformer within, for EACH input channel that is switched into the circuit when a 1/4" plug is inserted and will convert the typical 10k-100k Ohm 'guitar' or 'instrument' level impedance to the 1K Ohm impedance expected at the console, and if routed via 1/4" TRS (3-conductor tip-ring-sleeve) 'balanced' lines might also have additional internal wiring to convert the average 1/4" TS (2-conductor tip-sleeve) to TRS balanced with 2 ground wires instead of just one. Doing so helps to reject hum and EMI/RF interference, and then the only un-balanced line is from the instrument (or amp or pedals) to the stage snake box.

Having the in-line impedance-matching transformer also enables the stage snake to act as DI or 'direct box'.

So it seems that when the sound system was setup in the church, it was done with these considerations in mind, which makes it much easier for everyone involved, as opposed to each performer needing a proper preamp and/or DI box, which each is likely to output different signal levels unless all the exact same item, which is not often the best option in most cases.

RafterGirl - I am glad that you will have fewer obstacles to getting plugged in and playing with your ensemble. It seems like the sound guy at the church is running a good setup so far.

Please keep up posted on your further progress. :)
 
@Booli - So am I correct in thinking that a cheap snake without those transformers to match impedance (or running a TS 1/4" to XLR straight to the snake) is the same as an X feet long TS 1/4" to the board (where X is the length of the snake)? Or does the XLR part of the run somehow not loose tone and only the 1/4" adds to the problem? :confused:
 
Booli, I'm more with Brad, and little more statistically pessimistic view. What are the chances:
- church has a snake with a transformer.
- guitar player is plugging directly in the snake ("normal" snake with no transformer)with a 1/4" TS to xlr (either by design, or with an adapter), or a TRS 1/4" to XLR, in which case the R would be there for nothing given most pickup jacks.

If its the first, girl is set.
If its the 2nd, well, you've already gone through that scenario, many times.
 
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@ Brad & Kekani -

Hard to say without knowing exactly what is on the stage (make & model) and what they are using as a FOH (front of house) mixer board. There are many makers, many models and many options so lots of variables to account for.

For the sake of argument I will try and answer, but with many unknowns, I could be missing something and am also open to suggestions...

The photo of that snake box (which is a 19" rackmount unit) in my previous post is made by Seismic Audio and sells for $450 alone, and not sure if that model has the impedance-matching circuits inside (memory fuzzy now).

Some churches invest a lot of cash into their sound system and others are on a shoestring and can only afford the $99 24-channel XLR snake cables (that do not have a 'box' per se). These cheaper units are almost garbage and really should be avoided if possible. The use cheap connectors and cheap, poorly soldered cables, and will need repairs/replacing often.

(nothing quite like trying to use a soldering iron, at the foot of the stage while the band waits around to do their sound-check, asking every five seconds if you fixed it yet - AARRRGGGGHHHH - triple redundancy is the answer, 3 of everything - for EACH performer, otherwise there is NO BACKUP :))

I think that if no signal matching is done, the 'tone suck' is likely more due to the impedance problem, rather than running a 50+ ft TS cable.

Doing so, with say even 16 AWG conductor and a braided quad-shield ground, you are more likely to suffer signal loss in terms of lower volume at the output due to the RESISTANCE rather than the capacitance of such a long cable run.

However, if the 1/4" plug does not have the transformer, BUT does in fact 'normal' the 1/4" TS plug such that the 'R'(ring) of the TRS is bridged or shunted to the S (shield) in the snake box, it is like having a 'normalled' patch bay, and when routed out of the box via an XLR cable, that female connection on the snake box now has 2 'parallel' ground circuits (albeit usually twisted x-times per ft inside the XLR cable or on a quad-braided sheath) such that both the resistance and capacitance are reduced on account of now having twice the amount of ground wire for that signal's channel.

Both tone-suck and impedance-mismatch can be solved with other add-ons at the stage and flipping some switches (or turning some knobs) at the mixer console, but this is at the discretion of the sound engineer.

I think that the takeaway for RafterGirl would be if her ukulele with the MiSi pickup/preamp sounds weak (low volume) or thin or quacky (impedance) coming out of the PA, she will need to dialog with the sound guy about these issues, as this can be resolved as we have discussed before, but EQ is usually NOT the solution since this is an electrical issue and not an audio issue.

I still would say that trying the Behringer ADI-21 ($39) [1/4" input/ XLR balanced & impedance-matched output] would be the first step on her end with the least cost and if that does not work, then there are other issues at play.
 
One more question for Booli. If I'm using Misi pick-ups in my ukes going forward, is there any reason to keep the iRig? Not talking about the clip-on mic, but the control box itself. We discussed on another thread about it's practical usage with a passive pick-up. Would it have a practical use with the MiSi? I'm thinking as volume or tone control closer to the uke/me than making adjustments on an amp. I recall that the iRig video showed how to use the clip mic in additional to the instrument pick-up. I'm not necessarily talking about within the church PA scenerio, but at home or if just plugged in to an amp somewhere else. If it has no practical value with an active pick-up then I will sell it so someone else can use it.

PS - I will try to get a photo of the set-up at church when I'm at practice tonight.
 
Here's a picture of the large box that the guitar players hook up to directly with XLR cable (?) I hope this helps in identifying how things are set up. I don't think my new uke with the MiSi pickup will make it here by Sunday. Playing with a mic set up in front of me is working just fine for now.
 

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Without asking for the guitarist's signal chain (which will probably not apply to you), I'd query "what are YOU plugging into?" and "what is your signal chain?"

On a side note, there are stickies in Tech that you may want to read.

Not sure what a signal chain is, but I'll look for the stickies in the Tech Forum and do some reading. In your earlier post you said that if the church had a snake & transformer I'd be set. Is that what's in the picture?
 
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