How much can we lower the action on the first fret?

zztush

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We can answer this question by ourselves with a ukulele and a capo. And if we don't have capo, we use our fingers instead.

The left figure shows zero fret. There used be many guitars which have zero frets but now I think only Mosrite and some others have it. We can experience zero fret by our capo (see the figure centre). Now the 2nd fret on the centre figure is the zero fret on the left figure. And now we can see that zero fret produces the lowest nut hight. Actually zero fret guitars offer low actions. Put on your capo on 2nd fret same as the figure centre if you have. If you don't have a capo just push the 2nd fret with your left index finger. Then you push 5th fret with your right index finger. Then you can simulate right figure. Now you can see the clearance of the 3rd fret on your ukulele. It may be very small. This clearance is same on the 1st fret (see the arrow in the figure right). Some books or web sites say it is business card easy slide and some say two sheets of copy paper and others say very very small clearance. What we see on the 3rd fret on our ukulele is this clearance.



We used to measure 1st fret clearance but now we only use the method on the right figure. We can check and understand this clearance by ourselves in this manner.
 
We can answer this question by ourselves with a ukulele and a capo. And if we don't have capo, we use our fingers instead.

The left figure shows zero fret. There used be many guitars which have zero frets but now I think only Mosrite and some others have it. We can experience zero fret by our capo (see the figure centre). Now the 2nd fret on the centre figure is the zero fret on the left figure. And now we can see that zero fret produces the lowest nut hight. Actually zero fret guitars offer low actions. Put on your capo on 2nd fret same as the figure centre if you have. If you don't have a capo just push the 2nd fret with your left index finger. Then you push 5th fret with your right index finger. Then you can simulate right figure. Now you can see the clearance of the 3rd fret on your ukulele. It may be very small. This clearance is same on the 1st fret (see the arrow in the figure right). Some books or web sites say it is business card easy slide and some say two sheets of copy paper and others say very very small clearance. What we see on the 3rd fret on our ukulele is this clearance.



We used to measure 1st fret clearance but now we only use the method on the right figure. We can check and understand this clearance by ourselves in this manner.


Well, that is not the proper way to get a reference and what you suggest propably is way too low.
First all in that depends on the assumption that the 1st and second frets are properly placed in height. Also your capo on 2nd fret is based on the same assumption for the 3rd and 4th fret.
When 3rd fret is pressed down there should be gap between 1st fret and string, that I agree with you and your rightmost picture is a good one.

Slightly better reference is got by putting the capo on 1st fret and see what gap is left by pressing the finger in 12th fret. See what gap is on 2nd fret. I hope there is some and should be, but might not. Because of the 1st and second fret height placements/neck condition. So this is not good either as a reference.

My idea is that the proper height is such that the gap to 1st string should be larger than the gap left to bring press down to second fret when the 1st fret is already pressed. Or gap in nearby successive frets.
Much larger is my ideal, not of course then the minimum you seek. Nut wear has to be taken account at least when going to absolute minimum. That is more of concern with steel strings.

So better to have some measurement tool for the first fret height. It is assumed that the saddle is not too high too. The credit/bank card is propably too thick, but it can be anyways used to measure if the nut action is too high for anyone checking an ukulele at store. Notice that this absolute measurement relies on first adjusting the saddle to optimum height if you really want to go down to really low action on nut.

Thank you for the great pictures and an opportunity to give a critical response :)
 
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I was blundering and your post is right, so I'm sorry. I keep them above cause people like read ramblings. Merry Christmas too :)
 
Hi, Jamo! Thank you for your reply and happy Christmas! I add two more diagrams in order to explain for you.

Once we can get the image of zero fret (nut), we can understand how much we need to shave saddle (see the first figure). String is located from zero fret (nut) to saddle. A half point is 12th fret. Normally we call action this 12th fret hight. And lately we don't use 1st fret hight. Because we use another method which I've previously shown in this thread. And we use business card, 2 sheets of paper, almost zero and so on. The first diagram shows that we need to shave two times of 12th fret. When we want to lower 0.5 mm, we need to shave 1mm on saddle bottom. Ok, then we move to second diagram.



I show here two lines. Red one is Brenda line, blue one is Dave line. Clearance of the 1st fret is not direct clearance but the clearance made by the way of the 3rd figure in this thread. Brenda line has business card clearance on the 1st fret, and 2.8 mm action on the 12th fret. It leads to low action in high frets. I would like to set up this one for her classy solo. This one has bit high action on low frets but she is solo player. Dave line has only a bit of clearance on the first fret but it has high action (2.8 mm) on the 12th fret. This set gives him great playability for Cowboy chord (low chord) strumming, because very low action in low frets. It is bit hard to play on high frets. But we love his singing with low chords. I would like to set up this one for him.

I usually set up in this manner and I usually take Dave line.
 
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Pressing down on the 3rd fret, a good measure is a credit card on the first fret..
Zero fret just means it takes the place of the nut height, therefore the nut becomes the guides lol
The 12th fret should be between 2.7 and up depending on your playing style and comfort.
Please may I ask, don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger... did you ask to use permission using others
Forums members names. I'm just saying one or more contacted me and the person or persons was uncomfortable
With it.. just saying it would be better forum etiquette to ask before using names in the future. Thank you, just passing it along for your knowledge ������
 
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Now I show how to shave the nut bottom.

A: Remove nut by thumb. It is not difficult. We don't need hammer.
B: We just need any cube or box which we can push our nuts in order to take vertical surface on sandpaper. And shave! I use Nintedo DS stand.
C: I took the clearance of the 1st fret almost zero (this method is shown in the first post).
D: The action (on the 12th fret) is 2mm. Australian 20c is in there.



This time I made my friend's soprano for solo. Hence action is low and intonation is perfect. I teach him. I am strummer. But he likes solo. He likes Amazing grace and he is practicing Old Black Joe now.
 
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Hi, Brenda! Good question. I use old German 10 Pfennig coin too. :)

His solo of Amazing grace is amazing great and I always enjoy it. This set up is very low. There is almost zero clearance on the 1st fret (this method is shown in the first post) and 2mm action on the 12th fret. He likes this set up very much.
 
Personally, I prefer to set nut action with nut files, one string at a time, rather than taking material from the bottom of the nut. It gives more control and if you take off too much you've only screwed up one slot and can build it back up if you have to.
 
I would also recommend that we take a more cautious approach, it seems a little severe that we start knocking our nuts about :D filing the slots is a lot safer.

Basically these jobs should be done on spare nuts which we can get very cheep in the Internet. And factory do not touch nut grooves either. They dig nut slots and put commercially available nuts in there. Their approach of the nut hight is managed on the nut slots on the head stock (not the each groove on the nuts) in general. Maybe Kamaka may filling nut grooves. Because Kamaka's nut groove s are very deep.
 
Personally, I prefer to set nut action with nut files, one string at a time, rather than taking material from the bottom of the nut.
Agreed. That's the way I've always done it too. A factory nut doesn't take into account the specific kind of strings you are using, so fine tuning can be needed on the slots to get the ideal setup. My reason has nothing to do with worrying about filing too deep though. I'd just get a new nut if that happened. I just simply think it's a better way and it seems most pros do it that way.
 
Hi, Thank you for reply, buddhuu!

Personally, I prefer to set nut action with nut files, one string at a time, rather than taking material from the bottom of the nut. It gives more control and if you take off too much you've only screwed up one slot and can build it back up if you have to.

When you lower the action, where do you shave on saddle and nut? Do you shave both top?

 
Hi, Thank you for reply, buddhuu!

When you lower the action, where do you shave on saddle and nut? Do you shave both top?


Buddhuu doesn’t shave at the nut (correct me if I’m wrong). He uses nut files to adjust the slots.
 
Like Buddhu, I file each nut slot as needed per string, and do not sand the bottom of the nut.

For saddles, I sand the bottom for height, and then file the string breakpoint on the top of the saddle for compensation as necessary.

This has worked out well for me over the previous 35 yrs on guitar, and the past 4 yrs on ukulele.

I have 2 ukes where I went too far on the nut slots on one string, and need to get some superglue so I can tape off the area, and fill the slot, and start over.

Yes, I also have some spare Tusq nuts, but the other strings are intonating perfectly so I'd rather not redo the iterative and tedious process of doing ALL FOUR STRINGS, over again.

I think that shaving your nuts will cause problems, especially if you are wearing shorts in the winter :rolleyes:
 
Aloha, Booli!

I think most of the people (if they file the nuts) take your way. File the top of the nut and sand the bottom of the saddle. I used to took same style but sanding bottom of the nut is easier than filing top of the nut for me. And as it is easier, the result is better to me.

I think that shaving your nuts will cause problems, especially if you are wearing shorts in the winter :rolleyes:

Good point. Ireland nuts are cattle bone. I need Tusq or ebony nuts. :rolleyes:
 
Buddhuu doesn’t shave at the nut (correct me if I’m wrong). He uses nut files to adjust the slots.

Yup. What Seeso said. I file each slot until I have the action at the nut exactly as I want it. I use the capo at 3rd fret technique to check the action at the first fret and then adjust.

I always work from unslotted bone blanks so I rarely, if ever, ever file or sand the bottom of the nut.

I tend to have slightly different action on different strings. On a low G I keep the action just a tiny fraction higher than the other strings as I hit that hardest.

I'm a believer in not having nut slots any deeper than they need to be, so after setting the action I file/sand off the surplus height around the slots until the tops of the strings peek over the tops of the slots.

I also file the slots at a slight incline to avoid a sharp friction edge on the headstock side and to ensure a clean break where the string leaves the slot.

Oh, and I put a tiny spot of CA glue on the face of the nut that butts up against the end of the fretboard. That's safe as the glue goes against end-grain so you get no tear-out if you want to tap it loose later. I do NOT put glue on the bottom of the nut as you risk pulling wood away when you next remove the nut.

There. Now I have no nut-filing secrets left!
 
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I'll just add that, for anyone who owns several uke/mandos/guitars, or who regularly experiments with different string gauges and set-ups, a good set of nut files is one of the best investments you can make. It still takes experience to do a good job but it's way easier with good files.
 
And one final, final tip!

If you need to fill/build-up a slot that you've filed too deep, and if you're using bone, try using the bone dust from filings to mix with CA glue for your filler. I find it works better than baking soda (for me).

I recommend using only dust from filing, not from sanding as that may have bits of abrasive grit from the paper in the dust.
 
My way of lower the action is very easy.

A is the original nut on my guitalele, and B is the new one. I've just shaped the groove for 6th string (red cirlcle). It was bit narrow and shape was triangle (see B) and the 6th string did not reach to the bottom of the groove. I just shaped it. We don't need special file for this. I have several files but we can do it with folded sandpaper. And Just shave the bottom.



Hi, Booli! I've just get these nuts from Ireland this morning. Thank you for your help of world wide search.
Hi, Rakelele! If you need nuts for your Ibanez piccolo guitar, ask me or Booli where you can get it. These nuts are 42mm and hard to find but they fit perfect, and now it is almost original action, I test it for a while and decide how much I lower the action, then just shave the bottom. I don't have intonation problem on this guitalele but l know you have intonation problem. Lowering action may solve your intonation problem.
 
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