Open strings out of tune with closed strings

Hello,

I have a mele soprano ukulele. I can tune the open strings, and they are perfectly in tune relative to one another. However when I press any string, that string is out of tune relative to the open strings.

I can tune the strings while pressed, and then as long as i play only closed strings, everything is in tune.

Does that make sense? I sent the ukulele back to mele for this issue and they insisted my ukulele is perfectly in tune, and suggested my strings need to wear in. I’ve been playing daily for almost a year and the issue has not improved.

Any ideas on how to fix this?

Sounds like it may need to be set up properly, nut &/or bridge may need adjusting.

Commonly an issue due to too high an action at the nut (assuming you are playing more in first position). However, old strings can have intonation problems as well. You stated that this problem has been going on for almost a year - I assume it was doing it from the start? Have you changed the strings in this year period?

Start by changing the strings. After a year they need to be changed no matter what. Next, check for proper set up:

At the nut -- hold a string down at the third fret. With your other hand tap the string at the first fret. You should be able to judge the distance of the string to the first fret with this technique. There should be almost no space between the string and the first fret when the string is fretted at the third. If that distance is more than the thickness of a business card the nut height is too high. This will cause the intonation problems you are describing because the string gets stretched more the higher the nut height, causing it to play sharp when fretted.

At the 12th fret -- measure the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of a string. That distance should be between 2.5mm and 3mm. If higher, the saddle needs to be lowered. Same issue as with a high nut in the effect on intonation.

Neck relief -- Less likely a problem, but you should check it anyway. Capo or hold down a string at the first fret. Hold down that string at the 12th fret (some use the 15th) Press down or tap the string at the 5th fret (or 7th). There should be some very small distance between the string and the middle fret. With no distance the strings will likely buzz when played. With a lot of distance you likely have a warped neck which makes playing more difficult and can also cause intonation problems.

If you have any of these problems they will need to be addressed. If the action is currently high, once you have a proper set up you will be pleasantly surprised at the improvement in playability.

Also though not as common, even if the nut height is not too high, intonation problems can also occur if the nut is not properly placed regarding the length of an open string.
That can happen if for instance an originally properly placed nut is filed improperly so that the free string is not stopped at the point it is supposed to be done.

Uke Don said:

Neck relief -- Less likely a problem, but you should check it anyway. Capo or hold down a string at the first fret. Hold down that string at the 12th fret (some use the 15th) Press down or tap the string at the 5th fret (or 7th). There should be some very small distance between the string and the middle fret. With no distance the strings will likely buzz when played. With a lot of distance you likely have a warped neck which makes playing more difficult and can also cause intonation problems.

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Not to hijack the thread, but perhaps the OP can benefit from this as well - In regards to neck relief, how can this be adjusted with instruments with no truss rod? Surely the larger instruments will/can have them like the baritone and perhaps some tenors, but what to do with the soprano and concert instruments that don't have a truss rod? An example - I was in a local music shop and they had a very nice soprano Bruko. Upon playing it I noticed the action was very high. Sighting down the neck, sure enough there was a terrible bow. I'm fairly confident it didn't come from the manufacturer like this as the store has a reputation of not keeping their acoustic area properly humidified. I am just curious if there is a fix for this, or if the instrument is just the way it is now.

bsfloyd said:

Not to hijack the thread, but perhaps the OP can benefit from this as well - In regards to neck relief, how can this be adjusted with instruments with no truss rod? Surely the larger instruments will/can have them like the baritone and perhaps some tenors, but what to do with the soprano and concert instruments that don't have a truss rod? An example - I was in a local music shop and they had a very nice soprano Bruko. Upon playing it I noticed the action was very high. Sighting down the neck, sure enough there was a terrible bow. I'm fairly confident it didn't come from the manufacturer like this as the store has a reputation of not keeping their acoustic area properly humidified. I am just curious if there is a fix for this, or if the instrument is just the way it is now.

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Unfortunately, the fix will likely cost more than the uke. Depending on how bad the neck is, pull the frets, flatten the fretboard, refret. Or, pull fretboard, flatten the neck, install new fretboard and frets. In other words, always check the neck relief on a uke before you buy it .

Uke Don said:

Unfortunately, the fix will likely cost more than the uke. Depending on how bad the neck is, pull the frets, flatten the fretboard, refret. Or, pull fretboard, flatten the neck, install new fretboard and frets. In other words, always check the neck relief on a uke before you buy it .

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As I thought, thanks for confirming!

The issue is called Intonation and its unfortunately common with ukuleles.

Do the fretted strings go sharp or flat compared to the open strings?
If you can tune the instrument so that ALL the fretted strings are in tune and only the open strings are out then its a problem of an inaccurately placed nut. This isn't that expensive to fix but which way is it out and by how much?

Another thing the OP may benefit from:
If you don’t play open strings, this won’t be an issue. I was always taught to not play open strings. Although I don’t recall the reason the instructor gave, I do recall doing some rewriting with songs that incorporated them. Just saying, it’s not the end of the world if it turns out the uke is ‘unfixable.’

I think I would rather purchase a different instrument than not play open strings. The open strings have more resonance on a stringed instrument. I play a lot of picking melodies and appreciate the added resonance of the open string together with fretted notes. Of course this is just my opinion and other's mileage may vary

However, I strongly feel the OP's instrument should be able to be fixed.

bsfloyd said:

I think I would rather purchase a different instrument than not play open strings. The open strings have more resonance on a stringed instrument. I play a lot of picking melodies and appreciate the added resonance of the open string together with fretted notes. Of course this is just my opinion and other's mileage may vary

However, I strongly feel the OP's instrument should be able to be fixed.

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According to Mele it is fixed.

I checked all 3 and things seem good:
- less than business card thickness between 1st fret and string when 3rd fret is pressed
- 12th fret to string distance is between 2.5 and 3mm
- small distance between string and middle fret when 1st and 12th frets are pressed

i’ve changed the strings in this period, it is consistently sharp with new or old strings

anthonyg said:

The issue is called Intonation and its unfortunately common with ukuleles.

Do the fretted strings go sharp or flat compared to the open strings?
If you can tune the instrument so that ALL the fretted strings are in tune and only the open strings are out then its a problem of an inaccurately placed nut. This isn't that expensive to fix but which way is it out and by how much?

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they are sharp by about 17 cents

botnet said:

they are sharp by about 17 cents

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So the fretted strings are going 17 cents sharp compared to the open strings?

If this is correct then here's an embarrassingly easy fix to try. Take a matchstick and place it on the fretboard, under the strings and up against the nut. Does this improve things?

If it does then the nut is positioned too far away from the frets. A surprisingly common mistake.

+1 of what anthonyg told. I removed my post because I understood that the free strings were 17 cents sharp, when it is the other way around.

Jarmo_S said:

+1 of what anthonyg told. I removed my post because I understood that the free strings were 17 cents sharp, when it is the other way around.

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So your strings were 17 cents FLAT?

I've never seen that issue before.

If they were sharp instead, I'd recommend to compensate both the nut and saddle to increase the length of the vibrating string, which will reduce the sharp-ness of the intonation and bring it closer to being in-tune with itself with fretted strings, but it seems that this is not the case...

Good for anythonyg to suggest this, and that it fixed the issue for you.

ADDED: Also, if you put a capo on the first or second fret and then play, is the intonation still off, or does it improve?

If if is still off, then fret spacing and possibly bridge/saddle placement could be wrong.

If it's going sharp high up the fretboard it's more likely to be saddle placement. Difficult to say without doing some accurate measurements.
What is of concern is Mele stating that the strings need to wear in! Well OK that takes a few days at most. Mele do some very expensive ukes. Apart from the initial stretching I can tell the intonation (by ear) the very next day. That's hardly a lot of wearing in!

anthonyg said:

Take a matchstick and place it on the fretboard, under the strings and up against the nut. Does this improve things?

If it does then the nut is positioned too far away from the frets. A surprisingly common mistake.

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THIS THIS absolutely improved things. Yes the fretted strings were about 17 cents sharper than the open strings, and a matchstick made them correct.

What are the next steps to make a more permanent fix here?