Please explain this to me.

Oh, and I wanted to add, Kimo is amazing. I asked him how come sometimes it is super easy for me to figure out a song and sometimes it just completely eludes me?
He said it has to do with how far away the melody of the song is away from the harmony.
he asked me to play the song I was trying to figure out (on my phone/youtube) he just straight up started calling out the intervals in the song - and then the part that really blew me away - he started calling out where the song was GOING to go -
before they got there - and he had never heard the song before.
THAT is how you just jam along with people - knowing where it will be going.
He said you just get the knack once you learn the intervals. I believe him.
I'm not there yet, but I am working on it!

This was the same day he told me about the resolving 7ths. Brad's post reminded me of this. Aloha Brad! :D
 
I repeat that E7 is not in the key of Am no matter how you try and spin it otherwise. The original poster is confused about the chords in a particular key so confusing him more by blurring the lines between what chords are and are not in a certain key does not really help things IMO.
 
Last edited:
I repeat that E7 is not in the key of Am no matter how you try and spin it otherwise. The original poster is confused about the chords in a particular key so confusing him more by blurring the lines between what chords are and are not in a certain key does not really help things IMO.

Thank you so much for helping me make my point. I am not confused at all as I have accepted that the circle of fifths is not going to apply consistently to anything beyond a simple chord progression. And I am even willing to concede that one must start with simple chord progressions.The only confusion that I have, is why the circle of fifths is considered an incontrovertible truth?
 
I repeat that E7 is not in the key of Am no matter how you try and spin it otherwise. The original poster is confused about the chords in a particular key so confusing him more by blurring the lines between what chords are and are not in a certain key does not really help things IMO.

Eh....sort of?

Can we quibble?
The key of Am is the aeolian mode of C. (AKA...play the C scale starting and ending on the 6th note.) This is sometimes called the "natural" minor.
There's also a "harmonic" minor, that raises the 7th note of the scale on the way up and down. For Am, that's a G#. It's cool and sounds all Halloween-y.
There's also a "melodic" minor, that raises the 6th and 7th note of the scale on the way up, and plays 'em natural on the way down.

So...if you're writing a piece using the harmonic minor, your dominant chord is a V, not a v. In Am, that's an E7. If you're piece uses a melodic minor, it's a 50/50 shot. But since you get a stronger resolution using a V7 instead of a v7, you'll probably write a V7.

================
None of this stuff really matters for pop music, but it's still cool to know.
 
Oh! And my 2 cents on why the Circle of Fifths matters:

Pattern recognition and lots of music composition reasons. It sort of drives the music forward through a bass line, melody, or modulation. That's it.

It's more pronounced when you play or listen to "classical" music than it is with pop music. And since we play pop music, it doesn't come into pay too often.

Wikipedia has a couple of really great examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths#Examples_of_usage Check out the "Bach from Cantata 51 bass line" example. And I can tell you from personal experience, there are more than a few etudes out there that are basically just arpeggios that follow the Circle of 5ths and 4ths.

In popular music, the places it tends to come up is in extending the resolution of a phrase. Take the Doc McStuffins theme: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/doc_mcstuffin/theme_song_chords_1779427, particularly the line "It's ok don't be afraid the Doc really knows her stuff." See that D in there on "Doc really knows"? Circle of 5ths!

Or maybe "Do-Re-Mi" from the sound of music: https://ukutabs.com/j/julie-andrews/do-re-mi/
Check out the chords as the song progresses. It's easy to see that "Sew", "La", and "Tea" all modulate up a step at a time. The chords on "La" and "Tea" act as dominant chords that resolve down to the root of the modulation. "Sew" (C) resolves to "thread" (F); "La" (D7) resolves to "sew" (G7); "Tea" (E7) to "bread" (a minor).

If you look for the patterns, they will come. Hope this helps.
 
IMO the circle of fifths is just a visualisation tool for people who process that kind of information. It's not a great fit for everyone.

The best things to learn in/from theory depend upon what your goal is.

If it's just to accompany yourself singing then just learning a bunch of chords will do for a long time.

If it's to be an academic or a classical or jazz music virtuoso then you need the lot. Just start with chapter one of a well-reviewed theory book and work your way through. Also take formal lessons.

If your aim is to be able to play easily with other people at a jam or in a band then I'd say the most helpful things to understand are intervals, simple scales (major, major and minor pentatonics), chord construction and which chords live in which keys.

A handy trick for memorising and learning the sounds of intervals is to find familiar pieces of music that you can "hear" in your head, or that you can sing or hum, and use them as a reference. For example, the interval between the first two notes of the classic main Star Wars theme is a 5th interval. If you count your way up the do-re-me-fa-so-la-ti-do major scale from the first note to the 5th note ('do' to 'so') and then sing those two notes one after the other you should hear Star Wars!

There are countless tools and tricks that aid learning and memorisation. It's a matter of finding the ones that work well for you.

The circle of fifths is a great tool for some people. Although I understand it just fine, I've never found it much of a help in any practical way.
 
Rooli........thanks for reminding me why I avoid this altogether. My brain just doesn't function with this stuff. I wish it did but I just blank out and glaze over. One day I will make the effort, promise.

As someone else said I just ignorantly play the stuff in front of me and I am happy. The sound of music comes out of my ukulele, washes over me and I am blissful. Mission accomplished
 
Last edited:
Rooli........thanks for reminding me why I avoid this altogether. My brain just doesn't function with this stuff. I wish it did but I just blank out and glaze over. One day I will make the effort, promise.

As someone else said I just ignorantly play the stuff in front of me and I am happy. The sound of music comes out of my ukulele, washes over me and I am blissful. Mission accomplished

I'm with you on that. I mean, I have tons of music on paper and in my tablet that I can pull up and play. I make an effort to memorize the ones that I like the best so that I can pull one out of my hat if I get the opportunity to play something. But one thing that I've wanted to do since the beginning is to learn to just hear a piece of music and play it. And I'm making some progress, slow but noticeable none the less. Early on for a bit though, I thought that the circle of fifths was the answer. I was led to believe that the circle of fifths was the answer. But it isn't. So I was going through some old threads on the subject looking for tid bits that I might have missed, and I found quite a few that proclaimed the circle of fifths was the answer. I felt compelled to start a thread that said, no it isn't. Actually, like a lot of threads that I start, I wonder later if it was even a point worth making? But what the heck.
 
Last edited:
I hear you on that. There are even some songs I am able to play pretty darn well "off book" but only in my favorite key. I go to a kanikapila and someone says hey let's play X and I say great I know that one and then they start playing it in a different key and I just grumble because it takes me a minute to get my bearings again. And I will still eff it up from time to time because I default to a certain chord at a certain part of the song.
Sigh.
We'll get there!
 
Rolli I have a lot of songs and pieces memorized and that feels good. When I just let go and have the song come pouring then I feel like I am making music. Even if I don't "know" what I am doing. I realize to jam with others I will need to learn theory and it will come with time.
 
I repeat that E7 is not in the key of Am no matter how you try and spin it otherwise. The original poster is confused about the chords in a particular key so confusing him more by blurring the lines between what chords are and are not in a certain key does not really help things IMO.

I’m about to post in response to the main question from Rollie, but I had to address this first.

The V7 doesn’t happen in the natural minor...but a great deal of our music raises the 7th step of the minor scale, making the harmonic minor...which is used with harmonic sequences.

As previously mentioned in the thread, v to i (minor v to minor i) occurs from time to time, but in terms of harmonic progression, V7 to i is certainly the progression most often used, particularly in a cadence, or “ending” of a musical phrase.

Therefore E7 to Am is very, very common, and is a frequent element of music written with harmony in the minor scale.

More to follow...
 
I am going back and forth about how to handle this topic.

Here’s where I’m at:

Understanding music theory can help you be a better musician, or it can take the joy out of music completely.

You have to know yourself...and if you think you can study the workings of music without it taking away the joy of music, or causing you to take away the joy of music from others, go for it.

The circle of fifths has always helped me think in terms of the relationship of keys and key signatures...but I dislike the circular version and use a linear version (CFBEADGC) which lacks necessary sharps and flats when typed, and also doesn’t represent the minor keys (which are a minor 3rd lower than those notes).

When it comes to transposition, simply being able to know the steps of the scale and qualities of chords (I ii iii IV V(7) vi viiº in major, I iiø III iv v or V(7) VI, VII or viiº in minor) as well as the chord flow chart:

iii->vi->ii or IV->V or vii->I

These have been my main tools. Yes, there are secondary chord functions (where a V of V leads to V...V/V->V) and temporary modulations...and actual modulations...etc. etc.

If all this makes your head spin, go grab your favorite book or tab and play it. Don’t worry about it. If it interests you, we should start a theory forum.

My ONLY complaint about our local ukulele group (which I dearly love) is that it occasionally tries to use some of the “on the spot” transposition skills (such as the Nashville number system, or the system used by a very prominent ukulele instructor) when much of the group doesn’t want to bother with it and simply wants to play the songs in the yellow book. The goal is to build the skills of the group to allow it to play any song in any key...but in a local “open” jam session, I’m just not sure it is the right venue to build that skill. I’m not afraid to say that I could be wrong...but I’m a teacher and I watch the reactions of people who struggle and I think, “This isn’t the time. Let’s play.”

A couple of years ago, I sat in another session by another well respected ukulele teacher, who taught how to transpose any song into its minor version. This teacher tried to teach: I becomes i, IV becomes iv, and V becomes v. The resulting songs were unsingable because everyone hears V as V in the minor key (I addessed this earlier) and that simple single raised note (the third in the V, or the 7th of the scale) makes a huge difference.

So...all this is fun to think about, and there are good tools...but you don’t need to know it to enjoy making music—and your ear is so likely centered in the syntax of western music that you’re going to follow the crowd anyway. It’s actually very difficult to leave the harmonic patterns that have surrounded most of us from birth (and yes, the Hawaiians, too, deal with this same bias).
 
Rollie, if you seriously want explanations, let's set up a few video chat sessions. If I can SHOW you what I'm so often on about, I think it'll change your attitude about the utility of the circle and about theory in general. It really does cut through a lot of slogging. You're right that not all music follows the circle pattern—that would make it too boring—but a massive proportion of it does, which is why it pays hugely to learn that particular pattern.

With a few tips, memorizing the fifths circle takes minutes. Learning to use it more fully may take an hour or two. I found it best to learn as a movable fretboard pattern, which I dub the "jog-diamond" pattern—I use this pattern constantly. But this presumes you've learned the root positions in all your chord shapes; otherwise you'd have to waste a lot of time translating to and from chord names, rather than just seeing the relations on the fretboard and playing appropriate shapes.

Note that bari G tuning differs from C tuning in being shifted down a fourth (the inverse of a fifth; the circle also shows fourths relations in the reverse direction to the fifths). Consequently, if you know the circle or the corresponding fretboard pattern, you can quickly map bari chord names to familiar chord shapes (or vice versa)—yet another application.

Finally someone who values the circle of fifths as a valuable thing it is :)

My daily practise is to play the basic 6 degrees, also the seventh chords in ii7 and V7 in common sequences. And that III(7) too because songs change between major and relative minor. I knew about harmonic etc. minors but did not want to complicate my reply with such things. But thank you a lot derbyhat for that too :)

I have now evolved my knowledge to 11 Keys, B/G#m and Db/Bbm being the latest additions. The last one I almost don't still know by heart, but because I know the others, I don't have to really look into the circle anymore.

Unlike ubulele, I dont't really use upper neck chords much, because I like chords as low as possible best for the sound and balance. Because of this I have had to learn all kinds of chord shapes that as themselves don't show as easy the relationship in fretboard, like ubulele mentioned.
 
As useful as the circle of fifths is, it is not a formula that can simply be applied to every song. Hotel California, which has a beautiful but unusual chord progression, is a great example.

As you have written it, the key is Am, and unfortunately minor keys tend not to be as straightforward as major keys as they could be natural(aeolian), harmonic, melodic or even dorian. Too much? Don't worry about it!

The E7 in this song is the V of Am. E is major rather than minor because in A harmonic minor (melodic too) the 7th is raised to G#. Most minor songs have this.

I am no expert, but I think that the progression then goes through a series of key changes. G-D is a IV-I in D. F-C is a IV-I in C. Then Dm-E7-Am is iv-V-I in Am harmonic. I think this sounds appealing because of the whole step movement E-D-C-D-E and the mysterious sounding IV-I cadences.

Three chord songs in major keys are usually some combination I-IV-V, so knowing those chords in the most commonly played keys can be very helpful and is a good start. However, when you move beyond three chord songs, things get more complicated because you need to know the ii, iii, and vi chords as well as be aware of key changes. Again, Hotel California is not really that straightforward.

If you want to get more use out of the circle, look for patterns in songs that move around the circle. For instance, Am-Dm-G-C (vi-ii-V-I) is very common and moves in fifths.
 
Last edited:
Just reread your post.

The bit about "E7s, A7s" can be confusing, because those dominant chords (seven chords) may not be in the key of the song but are often "secondary." You will notice that usually the chord following a dominant chord will be a 5th below or right next door on the circle. And if that chord is also dominant, the next chord will be another 5th below and so on. In 20's music you often see this, Hawaiian music too, e.g. E7-A7-D7-G7-C in Five Foot Two.

Regarding your friend who has a natural facility with music, I hate those people! The rest of us can improve our ear by working at it, but i can't help but be jealous.
 
I come from an accordeon background (is this the Accordeonists Anonymous?) and never actually used the circle pattern a lot, but rather a stradella pattern. The 'bass' side of an accordeon, which actually has two row of 'bass buttons' and four rows of 'chord buttons' doesn't follow an alphabetical order, but a '5th up, or 4the down' pattern. At first it didn't make sense, until you use it in songs, and you notice that it's actually handy because you only need a small area of your bass side - same with the 'circle', the revelation is that you only need one corner of the circle for a song.
 
I'm fairly confident that they actually do, you just may not realize it. All the first position stuff fits in with the same generic patterns I use to play in all regions of the neck. There are few fixed chords which do not correlate to usable movable shapes, but the root is still easily identifiable even for those—even when the root isn't one of the notes fretted or played.

When I run into unfamiliar chord types, I just derive them by tweaking the dom7 movable shape for the string the target root falls on. This is quite a simple and consistent approach, more consistent than similar derivations from the majors and minors, and certainly faster that trying to work out the names of the notes and how you can fit them together into a usable shape. It's also more reliable than chord dictionaries, particularly the online ones. It's another powerful argument for learning generic patterns rather than picking everything up piecemeal as special cases.

In my estimation, the little bit you gain in tone by sticking to the lower neck is dwarfed by what you lose in musicality. I'm not saying you have to use the whole fretboard, but it's a bad idea to restrict yourself to first position.



I find "Hotel California" to be a great example in support of learning the fifths pattern. Fourth progressions are just fifth progressions in reverse, at least in terms of the root movements. In addition to the fourth progressions you identified, the chorus is entirely composed of fourths and fifths in relation to the two main relative tonics, A [for minor] and C [for major]. The first modulation is to a key a fourth up from the main tonic, A; go another fourth to get the root of the first chord in that subsequence, then backtrack a fourth. Then drop those two chords a whole step, which lands you on the tonic of the relative major key—note that tonic position for when you get to the chorus. Using only the fourths/fifths fretboard pattern and some root movements by whole steps, I was able to play this song in several keys, without even having to think about the fixed chord names. There's your "Circle" Power in action.

The moral is that there are often more fourth or fifth relations lurking in unusual progressions than may at first be apparent, and if you recognize them, the 4/5 patterns can simplify both remembering the progressions and playing them.

Furthermore, all the diatonic roots in a key, be it major or minor, are chained by fifths (or fourths, depending on whether you think of movement down or up) in this order: 7 3 6 2 5 1 4 (b7 b3 b6, for minor); this is also the typical order followed in fifths progressions. 7 is only a half step below I, 3 is only a half-step below 4, b6 is only a half step above 5, so there are several quick ways to follow the fifths pattern to get any needed degree, approaching it from different points. There are other ways to do the same thing, but they may not follow as compact an arrangement as the 4/5 pattern can describe, and may involve more conscious mental work. I now mainly use a set of five "root cluster" patterns instead—a bit more random-access—but I derived them all from the 4/5 pattern initially, and still find that pattern faster in many cases.

On a circle diagram, you'll see the flats sequence BEAD-GCF repeated around the circle counter-clockwise (the direction fifth progressions follow), first in sharps, then naturals, then flats. So there in a nutshell you have the entire sequence of fifths in a form you can quickly memorize—and extending a little farther than the circle does, with no naming confusion where the circle eats its tail (those enharmonic equivalents). When you see subpatterns of the BEAD sequence, like Am Dm7 G7 or Cm7 Fdim Bbm, you know you're dealing with fifths progressions. Fourths or "back-cycling" progressions go the opposite way.

If you know the diatonic chord types expected on the different scale degrees, the easier it is to spot when things conform to expectations and when they do something different: chord "tensions" (coloring), secondary dominants, modulations, borrowed chords, tritone substitutions... This helps you understand the harmonic structure and also provides more hooks for your memory to grab onto.

Yes, diatonic rules apply to this song, but the frequent shift in tonal center makes it unusual for a pop song and difficult to grasp for a beginner. LOL, The OP can't understand why he is encountering Dm in the key of C and you're bringing up tritone substitutions.
 
Yes, diatonic rules apply to this song, but the frequent shift in tonal center makes it unusual for a pop song and difficult to grasp for a beginner. LOL, The OP can't understand why he is encountering Dm in the key of C and you're bringing up tritone substitutions.
The OP is trying to make the point that music is not a simple as the circle of fifths. That the circle of fifths has very limited value. The OP doesn't need to know why and how Don Felder came up with the progression for Hotel California, but the OP does know and understand that he didn't consult the circle of fifths to do it, and in turn, someone is not going to pull their circle of fifths out of their pocket and figure it out on the spot. I thank you all for proving that point.
 
Last edited:
My daily practice I do with regarding the most common chords where circle of fifths is a help. If you want join or make your own sequences this is just mine. I use that in all 11 keys and their relative minors, but soon I have covered all 12.

I give all chords in C/Am, because those are what most of you all already know.


1. I V vim IV ... I have heard this is the most popular sequence in songs, C G Am F .. it is of course debatable.

2. I iiim iim7 V7 I .... C Em Dm7 G7 C ... this sounds good and relaxed to me , what I want to point out is when changing keys it should sound the same or else you have wrong chords as with all these sequences.

3. I iiim iim V I ... C Em Dm G C ... this is just a variation with no 7th chords.

4. I IV V7 I ... C F G7 C ..also with just G and most times I practice also with quick changes between I and V(7)

5. vim iim III7 vim ...Am Dm E7 Am or without the 7th ... This is practice for relative minor or rather its harmonic etc. more practical ... again after that some quick changes between vim and III(7)

6. I vim IV V7 I ... C Am F G7 C ... again a really common sequence I end this practice, if seventh is left out I have heard this is related to Disney somehow, but I don't know lol. Just a very common sequence of chords.



Then I change the key and usually it is one down easier by fourth ... So it will be F/Dm, but I go this practice both ways, so it can be from this also to G/Em, its all in the circle. And why not just select a random key.

And one thing, after you have played this in one key, your ears have grown to this. Some melody play maybe after all up and down ur uke neck in that particular key :)
 
Last edited:
Just reread your post.

The bit about "E7s, A7s" can be confusing, because those dominant chords (seven chords) may not be in the key of the song but are often "secondary." You will notice that usually the chord following a dominant chord will be a 5th below or right next door on the circle. And if that chord is also dominant, the next chord will be another 5th below and so on. In 20's music you often see this, Hawaiian music too, e.g. E7-A7-D7-G7-C in Five Foot Two.

Regarding your friend who has a natural facility with music, I hate those people! The rest of us can improve our ear by working at it, but i can't help but be jealous.
When I hear that progression, I don't stop to think how does that fit into the circle of fifths, or I don't think, give me an hour or so to chart out just exactly how do all these chords fit into the world of music and why, I think, that sounds like there is a little salty dog in there to me, and I can play salty dog. I'll figure out that extra one on the fly. That's where I'm at. Sometimes it comes easy, and sometimes it doesn't come at all. But the circle of fifths will not find it for me.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom