Paypal Friends and Family

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Dennis, thanks for your reply.

Maybe, then it is me that has gone astray?

If so, I apologize as this was never my intent.

Please carry on. \m/

Absolutely no need for any apologies , I just believe that this is a very important thread if UU are to retain there excellent reputation.
 
There are no fees when using friends and family, which is why so many sellers prefer it.

F&F the party sending the money pays the fee. Non F&F the party receiving the money pays the fee. Paypal gets their 3% either way.

To me, excluding PP policy, it is akin to who pays for shipping in the sale price. Many advert price plus shipping cost. I like to sell with my price to include shipping as it makes the final price negation easier.
 
Just to add my 2 cents, I have always bought and sold through the goods and services mode, never friends and family. I want myself and the buyer protected. As others have said determine want you want to net and ask that price, very simple. If someone is going to jump the couch over 3% they can look elsewhere. You are usually paying 25%-40% below retail for a used ukulele and our tax is 12% so I am saving that as well, 3% is insignificant.
 
F&F the party sending the money pays the fee. Non F&F the party receiving the money pays the fee. Paypal gets their 3% either way.

This is incorrect with domestic transactions. With Friends & Family on US domestic transactions, neither party pays a fee as PayPal does not charge the fee.
 
Lots of the discussion seems to be about trust issues and/or ethical buyers and sellers.

This is tangential to the point of official rules of PayPal, and how the service is meant to operate.

Whether you love or hate PayPal, is up to you, but if you want to use the service to your best advantage, and have leverage in case of any mishap, your best chance is to play by their rules and not to cheat the system.

It's up to you what you want to talk about, but this topic is already turning into churn and friction, of who's right and who's wrong, and it's not about the OPINION of anyone here, it's about compliance with the 'Terms Of Service' of PayPal, which we all ticked the box 'I Agree' when creating and account.

Even if you did not read the document, you are bound to it since you agreed to it.

As other's have said, if you do not like their terms, then do not use the service. Nobody has a gun to your head.

PayPal offers a service that eases friction to transfer money, and for lots and lots of people this is worth their fees, which again you can figure out in 2-clicks after going here without doing any math:

http://thefeecalculator.com/

Wining about a legal contract you already accepted, and trying to cheat the system are different issues and if that's what this thread is to become, I am going to have to leave this discussion.

If you want to debate the merits of PayPal and fight their policies, might I suggest that such conversation for planning the rebellion could be better served elsewhere.

There are also a few web sites to share horror stories with others that want to share them, such as


I am not a moderator, nor do I have any authority, but I am humbly begging you to please stay on topic here.

I think Booli hit it on the head.

Regardless of how you feel about fees or Paypal, if you use Paypal, you have agreed to their policies.

I did not start this thread to argue about ethics on paying fees or not since everyone can judge for themselves what they are comfortable with. I just wanted to make people aware of the official policies for Paypal since a lot of people do not seem to know. I just wanted to make sure that buyers and sellers are protected when buying on the Marketplace.
 
To me in the case that it truly is a friend or family you are selling to I don’t see the big deal sending family friends. I definitely wouldn’t just send anyone payment family friends. I think the term applies if they are considered a friend or family. Someone you can trust to wave your rights. Paypal goods and services cover the money back guarantee and that is for their services. If you choose to not have that added service or protection and wave your rights then it is not ripping anyone off. That is assuming that both parties are aware. I don’t care how I send an instrument; if something is truly wrong I will be doing my best to fix it regardless of how anyone paid. Sure it may be risky in some cases but isn’t it for one to determine how they view another? I think goods and services truly apply if you care to have that protection. If I buy something from a friend and it arrives damaged then I will most likely be taking that up with the post office. If an instrument doesn’t meet my expectations I also don’t go sending it back; it isn’t the sellers fault that I don’t like the sound or the neck isn’t to my liking. Someone else might; so I’ll just pass it along. I have over 1000 transactions on eBay at 100%. Some ppl really do take pride in being honest. I am just saying how I see it. I will definitely quit doing it here to please the masses.
 
This is incorrect with domestic transactions. With Friends & Family on US domestic transactions, neither party pays a fee as PayPal does not charge the fee.

Having paid the fee using F&F I respectfully disagree.
 
To me in the case that it truly is a friend or family you are selling to I don’t see the big deal sending family friends. I definitely wouldn’t just send anyone payment family friends. I think the term applies if they are considered a friend or family.

Again, I think there is confusion on what some people think is okay vs. what is within Paypal policy. It doesn't matter if you are selling to an actual friend or someone else. If you are selling a good or service, you can't use Friends and Family.

Under paypal's user agreement (https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mp...agreement-full):
You may not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods and services.

Notice that it is anytime you are paying for a goods or service. It doesn't say "except when you are selling to a friend or family."

Again, I am not arguing that you are being unethical. I am just saying that asking for a friends and family payment for a good or service is against policy.
 
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F&F the party sending the money pays the fee. Non F&F the party receiving the money pays the fee. Paypal gets their 3% either way.

I think that the F&F buyer pays the fee only when using a credit card rather than bank account... if buyer uses bank deduction, there is no fee.

However, removing credit cards takes away one more level of buyer protection plus whatever 1-2% the credit card offers through miles/cash back, etc.
I sometimes play it safe and add 3% to the seller's fee so we're both protected, plus receive miles on the purchase so fee is essentially a little less.
For long time and active UU members, I do feel safer (friendlier? ;>) and have paid F&F.

It's interesting to think about a grassroots forum like UU enforcing another agency's policy (does that put UU in the position of enforcing state sales tax, etc.).
Any forum has rules and ethical questions do come up and are at times enforced.
Is this a legal (with potential liability for UU?) or is it a personal ethical issue (responses here would indicate both!)

Thanks for everyone's thoughtfulness here, I enjoyed the wrestle.
Especially given I need to lean into the "sell" side. Yikes!
 
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I really enjoy looking at the Marketplace. In fact, it's probably the forum I visit most. That said, I sure wish this thread weren't in the Marketplace. Don't get me wrong... it's a fine discussion to have, and good for people to get informed, but it really doesn't belong here. I like to open UU and see what new ukes are up for sale and what ukes people are looking to buy, not yet another thread on how to police the site and enforce rules. And now we're talking (6 pages in) about enforcing policies from other companies, and even state tax code? All I know is that this site has been great for a long time, in large part due to great moderators. If anyone has a major problem with the site, or a particular "for sale" post, I'm sure the mods would be happy to get a PM citing your concerns. I have full confidence that if an issue is serious enough, action will be taken.
 
Me too. I love browsing the classifieds / Marketplace here. I find 50x better stuff here than what I would see on my local Craigslist.

I've bought and also sold on here (more buying than selling) and I never thought once about these ramifications or worried about it all that much. I think the ukulele/ this forum specifically attracts "good people"... but maybe I'm just being naive though.


I really enjoy looking at the Marketplace. In fact, it's probably the forum I visit most. That said, I sure wish this thread weren't in the Marketplace. Don't get me wrong... it's a fine discussion to have, and good for people to get informed, but it really doesn't belong here. I like to open UU and see what new ukes are up for sale and what ukes people are looking to buy, not yet another thread on how to police the site and enforce rules. And now we're talking (6 pages in) about enforcing policies from other companies, and even state tax code? All I know is that this site has been great for a long time, in large part due to great moderators. If anyone has a major problem with the site, or a particular "for sale" post, I'm sure the mods would be happy to get a PM citing your concerns. I have full confidence that if an issue is serious enough, action will be taken.
 
Me too. I love browsing the classifieds / Marketplace here. I find 50x better stuff here than what I would see on my local Craigslist.

I've bought and also sold on here (more buying than selling) and I never thought once about these ramifications or worried about it all that much. I think the ukulele/ this forum specifically attracts "good people"... but maybe I'm just being naive though.

I've bought and sold plenty here too, however, I always consider the ramifications. Sometimes, unfortunately, there are bad apples in the mix. It's usually pretty easy to tell which ones are bad though.
 
Put me down in the "No Friends & Family Payments" column. Paypal provides a service. If you want to take advantage of their service then you should expect to pay for it. Yeah, it's cheaper to just pretend that the agreed-upon rules don't apply to you, but it's still unethical. Just like it's cheaper not to report income on your tax return, but that doesn't make it right. Paypal doesn't have the enforcement power of the IRS, but ethical decisions shouldn't be just based on who can throw you in jail! :rolleyes:
 
Also agree that something so fun has turned into such an issue. Most everyone I have sold to has been around here forever.. I only have positive things to say from being here. I also agree that I find WAY more here than anywhere else. While I understand being ethical I would never in a million years try to pull a fast one on anyone here and I’m not sure why how we decide to pay or be paid is anyone’s business. I do think it’s good to educate ppl so there are not scams being pulled. The thing is though; I have given ppl the option in the listing for the world to see. Nothing to hide from my previous sales threads. The ppl that scam don’t even do that; they simply tell the potential buyer in email to send family friends and many new ppl not knowing better do it. I will go along with all of this but it isn’t going to stop the bad apples from preying on ppl that don’t know better. Most of us here though know somewhat who we are dealing with.
 
Also agree that something so fun has turned into such an issue. Most everyone I have sold to has been around here forever.. I only have positive things to say from being here. I also agree that I find WAY more here than anywhere else. While I understand being ethical I would never in a million years try to pull a fast one on anyone here and I’m not sure why how we decide to pay or be paid is anyone’s business. I do think it’s good to educate ppl so there are not scams being pulled. The thing is though; I have given ppl the option in the listing for the world to see. Nothing to hide from my previous sales threads. The ppl that scam don’t even do that; they simply tell the potential buyer in email to send family friends and many new ppl not knowing better do it. I will go along with all of this but it isn’t going to stop the bad apples from preying on ppl that don’t know better. Most of us here though know somewhat who we are dealing with.

The other issue is that UU may unfortunately get repercussions from PP one day for allowing so many F&F sales on it's site. I am not saying they will but they might. I note you have changed your two current listings from f&f to simply paypal, I applaud you for that. Personally I believe that asking for F&F for sales to people who quite clearly are not family nor friends is not just unethical, it is fraud. I have never nor will I ever ask sellers to pay by this method. Other people may, that is up to them and their concience. At the end of the day I think UU'S reputation is worth more than a few dollars.
 
I can't help but think, are we trying to fix something that ain't broke?

UU can clearly post a usage policy for their classifieds and disclaim any responsibility of users postings as they don't profit from the sales here. Users agree that this is in no way the responsibility of UU but is the full responsibility of the users and to use the classifieds at their own peril.

Jim
 
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