Paypal Friends and Family

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RedRamen said:
Holy cow. When I posted this, I did not expect there to be so much debate since to me it is black an white. If you use Friends and Family to pay for goods and services, it is against the Paypal user agreement. If you violate Paypal agreement, you can get fined a minimum of $2500 USD per violation since that is what Paypal considers the minimum damage cost to them. Again, this is per violation.

It doesn't matter if you agree with the policy, or if you think this is ethical, or you think its okay to use for friends, or if you didn't bother to read the user agreement. If you use Paypal, you have legally agreed to their terms. Friends and Family can't be used for paying for goods or services, even if you are selling to your legal brother or sister.

Again, whether UU should actively police this or not is up to the moderators. All I was wondering was if there should be some message in the Ukulele Underground Forum Rules to say that friends and family is not allowed for sales of goods or services. Is UU liable for letting this go on? I am not a lawyer so I don't know. But it might be a good idea to put some language letting Paypal or whoever know that UU is not okay with violating Paypal rules.

I mean, we have a rule that says that it is prohibited to sell "any item the trading/selling of which is subject to legal regulation or control, including items such as tortoiseshell, wood, and other things covered by the CITES convention". Should UU be responsible for policing CITES violations? So, why not have a sentence that says, please don't use Friends and Family for sales of ukuleles? Or even something like, if you use paypal, remember that you have agreed to their terms. So why should we have a rules on CITES and not a rule on paypal user agreement?

I may have made a mistake posting this in the forums instead of privately messaging a moderator. But I honestly wanted people to be informed of the rules. There are too many examples of people getting fined when they were honestly selling to an actual friend, because they didn't know the rules. This isn't just for scammers. I did not want people to start accusing people of unethical behavior and people becoming insanely defensive.

So moderators, maybe we should lock or delete this post. I did not mean to cause such a rift in the forums. UU was a happy place, and I am sorry for causing such chaos. I just wanted sellers and buyers and UU to be protected.
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I wonder how many transactions you have done? I’m with you though; not sure why it is such a big deal. I think there are bigger issues in the world to worry about rather than to worry about frauding a company that constantly frauds it’s users. Like I said it doesn’t matter to me; I’ve chanced my listings but potential buyers offering less on what was already my lowest price is why I started allowing some people to pay that way in the first place. For some people $20 is an awful lot or they simply only have xxx amount in their budget. It may not seem like much to some and to the ppl that mark their instruments up will not notice a difference but if you are truly trying to give ppl the best deal possible; that’s when it comes into play. I have sold some EXCEPTIONAL ukes for EXCEPTIONAL amounts simply because I wanted to pass the instrument on to someone who may not otherwise been able to afford it. (Even at typical used prices) Profit is nice at times but it’s also very rewarding sharing the find and experience too.
 
I'll add the ones that are so adamant about this not being allowed because it is unlawful said:
Hear hear! This thread seems to have brought out some rather unappealing authoritarianist tendencies. Whether it's hypocritical or not, who can say... ;). It's also revealed many of the small--and yes, ultimately unethical--ways people work to avoid paying totally reasonable fees. Human nature, I guess.

Up to you each one of us to decide where we fall on this spectrum, and who we're comfortable doing business with.
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"we have a rule that says that it is prohibited to sell any item the trading/selling of which is subject to legal regulation or control, including items such as tortoiseshell, wood, and other things covered by the CITES convention".

BTW, under the revised laws I think this now applies to any transnational sale of almost every instrument listed on the forums (except Blackbirds)... ;).
 
<<Because charging a surcharge for using a credit card is illegal. >>

Hmmm. Here in California I always pay cash for gas because it's cheaper and the prices per gallon (both cash and credit) are posted on big signs at all stations. Maybe different laws for different states?
 
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If Paypal didn't charge "fees", how could they stay in business. There are many factors involved in choosing to use Paypal. I don't have any demand accounts linked to it because of hacking possibilities. Selling on line creates uncertainty among buyers and sellers. Paypal does offer some protection but there is still some "chance" involved. I don't mark my sales up for fees, either Paypal or Ebay, but I don't like paying them. I'm not against others who do it though. I learned the hard way never to ship something before you have received payment.
 
Ragtop232 said:
Absolutely. I agree 100%. While I might think using Friends and Family is against PayPal's rules when purchasing goods (it clearly is based on their agreement), I don't think UU should make this a policy or rule to use the buy and sell forum. My views are just that, MY VIEWS. I have no right to inflict my views or ethical values on anyone else. I interpret the agreement differently than someone else might. I think a good solution is to post a disclaimer from UU standpoint and let the user decide. If they break the law and get caught, let them pay the consequences.

I'll add the ones that are so adamant about this not being allowed because it is unlawful, ask yourself, have you ever driven over the speed limit or did not come to a complete stop at a stop sign??? Remember, this is unlawful as well.

Jim
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I think that is what I find confusing on why people don't understand why using friends and family to pay for ukuleles is against paypal rules. Like you said, to me using friends and family is pretty clear.

The user agreement clearly states:
If you use your PayPal account to receive payments for the sale of goods and services or accept donations, you must not ask your buyer to send you money using the “send money to a friend or family member.” If you do so, PayPal may remove your PayPal account’s ability to accept payments from friends or family members.
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To me that doesn't leave a lot to interpretation. I don't know how anyone can read it any other way except that you can't use Friends and Family to pay for goods (like a ukulele).

Also, about the speed limit. I actually knew someone who got a ticket for driving 2 mph over the speed limit. Now is that fair? It doesnt matter. He still got a ticket. So no matter what his personal views were, he was violating the law. So while a lot of other people go over the speed limit, if a policeman wants to ticket you for driving 2 over the speed limit, he can. Because that is what the law says. That guy actually went to court to try to contest the ticket. But it was an open and shut case. The judge basically asked him "do you know that going over the speed limit is against the law?". The guy said yes. The judge asked him "is going 27 on a 25 mph road going over the speed limit?". And that was the end of that. So it doesn't matter if the whole world goes over the speed limit, its still against the law.
 
Also, about the speed limit. I actually knew someone who got a ticket for driving 2 mph over the speed limit. Now is that fair? It doesnt matter. He still got a ticket. So no matter what his personal views were, he was violating the law. So while a lot of other people go over the speed limit, if a policeman wants to ticket you for driving 2 over the speed limit, he can. Because that is what the law says. That guy actually went to court to try to contest the ticket. But it was an open and shut case. The judge basically asked him "do you know that going over the speed limit is against the law?". The guy said yes. The judge asked him "is going 27 on a 25 mph road going over the speed limit?". And that was the end of that. So it doesn't matter if the whole world goes over the speed limit, its still against the law.
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My entire point here is clearly stated in your post. If you break the law and get caught, you will pay the consequences. Asking UU to enforce PayPal's policy or mandate rules to ensure PayPal's policy is adhered to is out of their scope, in my opinion. State best user practices, but it's up to the users/individuals to police themselves.

Jim
 
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Telperion said:
FYI, as the OP of this "Marketplace" thread, you have the ability to close the thread yourself.

http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com...or-Sale-quot-threads-when-your-item-sells-now!

I, for one, would not be upset should you decide to close this discussion. Hurry, before it gets to page 10.

:deadhorse:
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Ah. Thanks for that. CLOSING.

--------------------

I am editing this post so that people who are reading this for the first time will understand why I decided to close this thread.

My original intention really was like, "As buyers, please be careful using friends and family because you will not be protected. And as sellers, please be careful using friends and family because you can get a $2500 fine. And maybe we should post a rule so that people are aware of this rule and buyers and sellers can be protected. You know. Cos a lot of people don't read all of the user agreement."

I never imagined people would read it as "You are violating the rules you unethical bastard and you should go to jail and you can rot in hell" or "I am the here to make sure everyone is following the rules or you will feel the wrath of the ukulele gods" or "Ukulele Underground should post the rules and police them so that there are just rules on this forum and no fun. No fun for you!"

So I guess its one of those intent vs reality things.

I just wanted people to understand what it actually means to use the friends and family option and what the consequences of those actions are. And maybe have some language in the suggestions/rules in the marketplace FAQs to help people make their own decisions. Because like other people said, it is not up to me whether you follow the rules or not. I would just hate someone to be scammed as a buyer or have to pay a fee as a seller just because they didn't know. Knowledge is power, and all that.
 
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