Possibly an intonation problem?

melissabunny

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I recently bought a concert Fluke, it's my first ukulele and I've been having fun tuning it and practicing chords. My issue is that I get all the strings in tune (with a Meisel chromatic tuner, and I also have a pitch pipe that I use to get a feel for the way it should sound), they sound good when I'm playing them open one by one, except the C string buzzes a little. But the real problem comes when I try to play a chord- the C string makes everything sound SO awful! I was told that this might be an intonation problem and I've read a little about checking the intonation but I'm not sure what stuff like "playing a 12th fret harmonic and comparing it with a fretted 12 fret note" even means. How do I do that? I figure I should check the intonation first since that seems to be the most likely problem, and then I can rule that out... or figure out what to do about it. So my second question is, if the intonation is off, what can I do to fix that? I'm going nuts! I want to play my ukulele but it's so discouraging when the chords sound terrible, haha.
 
Hi Melissa. Welcome to UU. :)

Bad intonation on a Fluke? I've never heard of that before.

First thing I would try is a change of strings. Be aware that new strings can take days to stretch out and settle in, and until they do, the 'ukulele will keep going out of tune and will sound pretty awful; but old or dud strings are frequently the cause of problems - especially on very consistent ukes such as Fluke and Flea.

Checking the harmonic is done by playing the note fretted at the 12th, and then playing the harmonic. To play the harmonic, you lightly tough the string with a fingertip directly over the 12th fret (not behind it where you would normally fret the string). pluck the string and remove the fingertip from the string almost immediately. The harmonic is a high, ringing tone. It can take some practice to get the hang of it.

When you compare the fretted note and the harmonic with a tuner they should register the same. If the fretted note is sharp compared to the harmonic then the string length is too short and a bridge saddle adjustment may be in order. If the fretted note is flat then the string length is too long and compensation the other way may be in order.

Checking is easy. Making the appropriate adjustment is best done by the experienced. In some cases, inaccurate intonation may be symptomatic of an incorrectly positioned bridge. In such a case this is a serious flaw, and a replacement under warranty may be appropriate.

I'd try a string change first.

Perhaps a passing Fluke or Flea player could recommend strings for these models? Guys?
 
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yeah, I'm with BuddhUU...
I can't imagine a Fluke with intonation problems... especially if it happens to be the plastic fret board.
so much so that I would have to assume some other things must be in play.


i would probably recommend a string change also, but before that, I would double check a few very basic things...

please forgive me if my suggestions sound too basic. I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, but since I don't know your ukulele level, I am working under the assumption of "none"...

(edit: when I first wrote the below tuning suggestions I missed the part in you post where you mention your chromatic tuner. and the other advice is still okay for a full on newbie, but after rereading your post, I have concluded that you are not. enjoy the information anyways :) )

first, although I would prefer a more accurate tuning strategy than a pitch pipe... say, a clip on chromatic tuner maybe?But, pitch pipe is okay too. I would double check that the pitch pipe is still good. use a tuned other instrument like a piano or electric keyboard or, better yet, go to one of the online tuning resources, like here... http://www.get-tuned.com/ukulele_tuner.php
either double check your pitch pipe and/or tune you uke directly.

okay. there are a couple other basic things... the pitch pipe is most likely tuned to the notes G, C, E, and A... first make sure that that is the case. if it is, then you can try to get your uke strings to match those notes... depending on how you hold your uke (lefty? righty?) the top/upper/highest string when the length of the uke is horizontal should be your G string... the next one down, the C, then the E, and the bottom/lowest string should be A. if not make them so. and the tension on the strings should be roughly similar... if not the strings were probably strung for a "handedness" (left handed vs. right handed) opposite from you.

now, this next thing may not solve your discordant sound issues, but might as well cover all the bases... once you got your strings in the right order for your "handedness" and they are in tune, make sure that that "C" chord you are trying to hold is a "C" chord for GCEA tuning. If you are using a chord position chart for some other tuning, it will sound like a chord but it will not be the chord that is named. for example, if you are trying to hold a C chord using a Baritone uke (DGBE tuning) chart it will most likely be noted as 2010 (hold down top string second fret, next string open, next string first fret, and bottom string open)... on a GCEA tuned uke that chord is an F chord. That said, that C chord you are trying (for GCEA tuning) is probably theone noted as 0003 (the bottom string, the A string, is held at the third fret)

okay, with all that out of the way, let's also double check your finger positioning on the fretboard. make sure when you hold a string down at a particular fret, that your finger is not directly on top of the actual raised fret. the finger should be as close to the fret as possible but in the space just before the fret (the space towards the tuners pegs not the space towards the sound hole). touching the fret on the side is okay but if you hold directly on the fret there is a good chance you will be off.

that's most of the basic stuff i can think of at the moment. if that doesn't work, I would attempt the recommended string change. Any of the higher end strings will suffice IMO. I usually just tell people to avoid GHS strings... but if your current problem turns out to be a string issue only, it is likely because your current set is defective and, really, any new set of decent uke strings (even GHS) should fix it.

good luck!
 
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Unless there is something I am missing, there is no need to worry about the harmonic method if you have a chromatic tuner. I just put my chromatic tuner on and tune it up. Then I pluck all the strings (one at a time) holding them down at the 12th fret. The chromatic tuner will tell you if they are sharp or flat. The tuner should register the same note exactly an octave higher on the 12th fret if your intonation is spot on. In other words the C string should say "C" on the open string and "C" on the 12th fret of that string and both should be centered on the meter.

My Flea is dead on at all the 12th frets, with a plastic fretboard, and both the original HILos and Aquilas, so I too am surprised to hear one isn't. I suppose it is possible to have one with a warped neck, but I never heard of one.

I believe the rosewood fretboard models also have a removable and adjustable saddle, so it is possible your saddle may be too low causing the C string to buzz. The C string is fatter than all the other strings, so all other things being equal is more likely to buzz if something is wrong. Of course frets can also work their way loose on the wooden fretboards. Do you have the plastic, or the rosewood fretboard?
 
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A couple of other things.

Is the C string a wound string? I don't like wound 'ukulele strings, they are more prone to buzz than the plain kind. If you have a wound C then I would definitely suggest trying a different set of strings.

Despite advice you may have read elsewhere, you do not need to press the strings down hard with a death-grip when you play a chord. If you are doing so then you can bend the fretted notes sharp. If you suspect that may be part of the problem then practice your fretting technique. The point is to hold the string down with enough pressure so the string "breaks" firmly over the fret rather than to necessarily press the string down hard upon the wood (or plastic) of the fingerboard itself.

Clamping down hard causes wear to the instrument, causes poor intonation during playing and can lead to strain on your fingers and hand. Gentle but firm is the balance.
 
Thanks for the tips! I have the plastic fretboard. Also, no worries about insulting anyone's intelligence- I am a TOTAL newbie though I have done some reading on my own, so some stuff is more familiar to me but most of it is not at all. I appreciate any and all input. I'll try checking the intonation and following the other tips here and report back with my findings.

Meanwhile, speaking of strings, if I'm going to get new ones, which would you recommend?
 
My own favourites are Worth and Aquila, but I don't have a Fluke or Flea so I don't know if they suit those ukes.

Where did you buy your uke? If it was from a good 'ukulele dealer such as MGM or from Flea Market then I'd suggest giving the seller a quick call or email asking for string recommendations.

On the other hand, there are many Fluke players on UU. Hopefully a few people will offer their recommendations.

SweetWaterBlue mentioned Hilo strings as well as Aquila, so Hilo might be another possibility.
 
The Fleas come with Hilo strings (the black ones). Many people with the plastic fretboard do not like them because they are hard to see. When I first got my Flea I changed to Aquilias, which are white and louder than the original Hilos. Eventually I switched back to the Hilos, because I found the sound of the Aquilas more raspy than the Hilos and the Hilos are easier to play for me because they don't require as much tension. Others swear by the Aquilas on the Flea, so its an individual preference thing.
 
I changed the Hilos off of my Fluke to Aquilas and it roars like a lion! Love the sound.
 
One thing that often works and sounds absolutely crazy is to take the offending string off and flip it around. Tie a knot where it used to wrap around the peg then put that end in the bridge, then snip the knot off the other end and put that thru the tuner. I'm not sure anyone knows why that trick works, but sometimes it does.
 
Going to BUMP this thread.

My Kala ka-asov-s (soprano) seems to be noticeably off intonation wise. I can hear the difference but may be I am being a bit anal about it. Using my Snark electronic head stock tuner (SN6 I believe) it shows all strings are off when I use the 12th fret method (octave over open string). Granted, I rarely if ever play down to the 12th fret. But, it does bother me that a relatively simple mathematical calculation could go awry on a ukulele like this (it is not an inexpensive uke). My Tiny Tenor is very accurate at the 12th fret.
 
Its not the mathematical calculation that's gone wrong. What's gone wrong is the desire to care at all about quality control and the standard of work leaving a factory.

We've been in a race to the bottom for so long now that we are pretty close but still people buy this rubbish so they keep making rubbish.

When buyers stop buying because they tested the instrument first and refused to buy then, maybe, something will get better.
 
Going to BUMP this thread.

My Kala ka-asov-s (soprano) seems to be noticeably off intonation wise. I can hear the difference but may be I am being a bit anal about it. Using my Snark electronic head stock tuner (SN6 I believe) it shows all strings are off when I use the 12th fret method (octave over open string). Granted, I rarely if ever play down to the 12th fret. But, it does bother me that a relatively simple mathematical calculation could go awry on a ukulele like this (it is not an inexpensive uke). My Tiny Tenor is very accurate at the 12th fret.

Its not the mathematical calculation that's gone wrong. What's gone wrong is the desire to care at all about quality control and the standard of work leaving a factory.

We've been in a race to the bottom for so long now that we are pretty close but still people buy this rubbish so they keep making rubbish.

When buyers stop buying because they tested the instrument first and refused to buy then, maybe, something will get better.

Have you measured to see if the frets are actually off? There are measurements for that. I don't know what they are off hand, but they are out there for the looking. If they are off, that is a problem with material and workmanship. I'm pretty sure that if that is the case, Kala would be more than happy to get that one back and send you one that was not defective.

I'm not going to buy into the idea that ukulele manufacturers are dropping the ball. Especially a company like Kala. I have a Makala concert, bottom of the line, and it is spot on. There is a lot of competition out there for ukulele manufacturers. Companies in that kind of environment survive by selling quality for less. That's the only way they can compete.
 
My Kala ka-asov-s (soprano) seems to be noticeably off intonation wise....all strings are off when I use the 12th fret method (octave over open string).

Is the fingered 12th fret sharper than the harmonic? That seems to be the usual problem. What about the intonation on the first 3 or 4 frets on each string? What strings do you have?

Last year I was tempted by the beautiful sound of the ka-asov-s but the first few frets were fretting sharp as was the 12th fret. I already had the same problem on my Baton Rouge soprano so didn't buy the Kala.

However with some tinkering I have now sorted the intonation on my BR.

1. Changing strings from the original Aquilas to Living Water helped a bit as the fluorocarbons are more flexible.

2. The nut was too high so that fretting the first frets was stretching the strings sharp. Filing down the nut slots improved it a little.

3. I fitted a new bone saddle and filed it to compensate for the different string thicknesses (i.e. flexibility). This fixed the 12th fret.

4. Experimenting with a capo showed that the fingerboard was slightly too long and needed a 'zero' fret. I made a 1.5 ebony shim and inserted it in front of the nut, extending the nut slots through the shim. This sorted the low frets.

Finally I am happy with the intonation, the chords sound clean and I can tune it by ear comparing frets rather than using a tuner.

The short string length of sopranos means that they are more likely to suffer from intonation problems than larger sizes. OTOH my Kiwaya soprano (which has a compensated bridge) was spot on accurate all over the fingerboard right from the start.
 
Is the fingered 12th fret sharper than the harmonic? That seems to be the usual problem. What about the intonation on the first 3 or 4 frets on each string? What strings do you have?

Last year I was tempted by the beautiful sound of the ka-asov-s but the first few frets were fretting sharp as was the 12th fret. I already had the same problem on my Baton Rouge soprano so didn't buy the Kala.

However with some tinkering I have now sorted the intonation on my BR.

1. Changing strings from the original Aquilas to Living Water helped a bit as the fluorocarbons are more flexible.

2. The nut was too high so that fretting the first frets was stretching the strings sharp. Filing down the nut slots improved it a little.

3. I fitted a new bone saddle and filed it to compensate for the different string thicknesses (i.e. flexibility). This fixed the 12th fret.

4. Experimenting with a capo showed that the fingerboard was slightly too long and needed a 'zero' fret. I made a 1.5 ebony shim and inserted it in front of the nut, extending the nut slots through the shim. This sorted the low frets.

Finally I am happy with the intonation, the chords sound clean and I can tune it by ear comparing frets rather than using a tuner.

The short string length of sopranos means that they are more likely to suffer from intonation problems than larger sizes. OTOH my Kiwaya soprano (which has a compensated bridge) was spot on accurate all over the fingerboard right from the start.

Thanks for detailing your experience. Much appreciated. My assumption is that the saddle is still too high and maybe the nut too. The strings gradually go sharp as I move to the 12th fret. I think I'll need to take it to U-Space L.A. for a proper setup check.

I've gone through 3 string changes trying to find one that suit me. Really like the LaBella (Romero Creations) strings. They are still new so I'll give it another week to settle in.
 
Have you measured to see if the frets are actually off? There are measurements for that. I don't know what they are off hand, but they are out there for the looking. If they are off, that is a problem with material and workmanship. I'm pretty sure that if that is the case, Kala would be more than happy to get that one back and send you one that was not defective.

I'm not going to buy into the idea that ukulele manufacturers are dropping the ball. Especially a company like Kala. I have a Makala concert, bottom of the line, and it is spot on. There is a lot of competition out there for ukulele manufacturers. Companies in that kind of environment survive by selling quality for less. That's the only way they can compete.

Yes I have measured MANY ukuleles with rules, vernier callipers and I've referenced the stew-mac fret calculator.

The problem isn't usually the frets although I do have 1 ukulele that wasn't fretted accurately. Mass produced ukuleles have the fret slots cut with CNC machines so they are usually spot on. The problems are with the placement of the nut and the saddle.

Someone has just placed them on the instrument without checking for accuracy (lack of QC) and then someone else has sent them out of the factory without checking intonation (again, lack of QC).

This is nothing new. Martin Guitars is infamous for a serious QC stuff up in the early 70's. Its just getting worse because Quality Control costs money.

Yes I may be a bit of a crank sometimes yet I was a student of Manufacturing economics so I understand the issues. This isn't JUST about ukuleles. Its anything and everything that's mass produced these days.
 
Others might be quicker on this but this thread is really two separate ones with a common theme, effectively new from #11 on. I'm with ukatee on the way forward and have done similar myself.

The Kala and Makala Sopranos that I have had or have are generally spot on right up the fretboard once a little work has been done on them and Martin 600's fitted. IIRC my old Makala SN with M600's was spot on everywhere. The reclaimed Aquila's that were factory fitted on a Dolphin gave real problems on my Lanikai Soprano, I replaced with new Aquila's and mostly solved the issues. The nuts and saddles on every Uke that I have owned have all needed sorting out for playability and intonation. The fret board on my old Lanikai (Grand-daddy of my kalas, pre-owned and well used before coming to me) seems slightly too long between the nut and first fret. I tune that Uke off of the second fret and find that perfectly usable for all practical purposes. The tuning on it might be even better if I used Martins on it but I wanted my two Sopranos to have different strings.

I do like things to be right and work at making it so, but unless you're finger picking it is, IMHO, not worth worrying overly about fretboard intonation at the sound hole end of your Uke 'cause that's not where your playing it.
 
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