Ukes and endangered woods.....shouldn't we care more?

Again, cattle is why koa isn't as plentiful as it should be. Want to save a koa tree? Give up eating beef.

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So I guess this is a good time for...

http://www.chick-fil-a.com/#thecows

John

I'm so glad people are willing to talk about this. If you really want to see a change, you have to vote with your dollar. I'd love to be able to support a luthier who hand-builds my uke in the most sustainable way possible... but my wallet and my noobishness dictate otherwise for now.

For future purchases I would LOVE to see a thread dedicated to eco-friendly ukes made with non-endangered wood and fair labor. It'd be pretty heartbreaking to discover that a thing which gives me so much joy was made by an underpaid and abused worker. It would be wonderful to have a reference for that, and might encourage people to take the green approach. For instance, I found Captain's Ukuleles in NZ, who use reclaimed wood (I know, you guys already know!). Every piece has a story to tell, and they're lovely. I totally have my heart set on a Backpacker!!

This article from Fretboard Journal is a good read.

A Guitar Lover’s Guide to the CITES Conservation Treaty - An updated look at how the CITES treaty affects musical instrument collectors

bottlegreen said:

It'd be pretty heartbreaking to discover that a thing which gives me so much joy was made by an underpaid and abused worker.

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While there are certainly labor practices that are outright abusive in some places; much of what we think of as abusive is actually an improvement for the workers concerned. I've spent a little time in asia and often within the lower classes those "abused" factory workers have things pretty good compared to their neighbors. One can debate whether that's "right" or not - but it's "what is" and when well-meaning people call for mass boycotts and so on the most common result is that a factory closes and the (former) workers are worse off than before.

Much of what is considered "abusive" was actually common place in our own (US and European) history. The 19th century was not a pretty place in urban America - we had sweat shops that would rival anything you see in China and India today. The reason we don't have them now is not because outsiders boycotted our industry - it's because our own national policies created a more skilled work force that was then able to negotiate with management. Ironically, the trend is reversing. Places like India, Korea, and China, and to a lesser extent Indonesia, have been investing heavily in education and creating a more skilled workforce while here in the US we are largely allowing our education system to lapse into third-world quality.

Personally, I think we as a nation have already turned a rather disheartening corner - once we exported jobs because other countries were a cheap source of labor. That still happens, but we are now exporting the highly skilled jobs to places like India and not just to save money, but because our own high school (and even college) graduates don't have the basic skills our industries need. I work in a highly skilled field and it's very, very difficult to find qualified candidates to fill positions - even in a crappy economy with rising unemployment. I used to do the telephone pre-screenings for my manager when we were hiring and it was mind boggling how many degreed candidates we'd get that were functionally illiterate. It's pretty sad when an East Indian or Chinese with English as a second language can communicate better, both written and orally, than any of the candidates born and educated here in the US.

John

bottlegreen said:

It'd be pretty heartbreaking to discover that a thing which gives me so much joy was made by an underpaid and abused worker.

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If you're judging the pay of instrument builders in developing parts of the world by the same standards you apply to your own pay, I'm afraid you're going to be pretty disappointed. That said, the working conditions and pay of these workers has gone up dramatically in lock step with their skills.

So much so that, in the next five years, you're going to see a lot of manufacturing for North American-bound products move to Mexico. Even if SE Asian wages don't reach parity with Mexico's, the benefits (no import duties, more lax customs checks, better terms of payment, much shorter shipping times & distances) will make up the difference.

When that happens it will be a big win for Mexico as well as for the environment––an uke that travels a thousand miles is much more eco-friendly than one that travels three thousand. Since our goal at Tall Grass Ukes is to continually shrink our footprint, for us it's not a question of "if" but rather "when."

OldePhart said:

While there are certainly labor practices that are outright abusive in some places; much of what we think of as abusive is actually an improvement for the workers concerned. I've spent a little time in asia and often within the lower classes those "abused" factory workers have things pretty good compared to their neighbors. One can debate whether that's "right" or not - but it's "what is" and when well-meaning people call for mass boycotts and so on the most common result is that a factory closes and the (former) workers are worse off than before.

Much of what is considered "abusive" was actually common place in our own (US and European) history. The 19th century was not a pretty place in urban America - we had sweat shops that would rival anything you see in China and India today. The reason we don't have them now is not because outsiders boycotted our industry - it's because our own national policies created a more skilled work force that was then able to negotiate with management. Ironically, the trend is reversing. Places like India, Korea, and China, and to a lesser extent Indonesia, have been investing heavily in education and creating a more skilled workforce while here in the US we are largely allowing our education system to lapse into third-world quality.

Personally, I think we as a nation have already turned a rather disheartening corner - once we exported jobs because other countries were a cheap source of labor. That still happens, but we are now exporting the highly skilled jobs to places like India and not just to save money, but because our own high school (and even college) graduates don't have the basic skills our industries need. I work in a highly skilled field and it's very, very difficult to find qualified candidates to fill positions - even in a crappy economy with rising unemployment. I used to do the telephone pre-screenings for my manager when we were hiring and it was mind boggling how many degreed candidates we'd get that were functionally illiterate. It's pretty sad when an East Indian or Chinese with English as a second language can communicate better, both written and orally, than any of the candidates born and educated here in the US.

John

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Not to hijack but the quality of our education system is way better than 3rd world countries. The problem witho ur education system is the lack of support in the right places.

I remember these topics being touched on before. Just in the past year or so US Customs has finally implented the Lacy Act which among other things prohibits the import of endangered or threatened species. It is very specific about certain wood and where they come fromn including the ban of woods from threatened rainforests/areas. Most if not all legal mahogany now is coming from Africa and is a diffeent species from S American mahogany. The same is true for rosewoods. I started selling mango wood ukes as a green alternative. Mainland will be coming out with some new models this year that are from more common mainland tonewoods.

Hey has anyone checked the Piano forums to check on the debate on ivory and ebony keyboards??

But in a serious tone, the issue for me is sustainability, and how to rationalise it in practical day to day living. I bought a zebrawood uke and DID consider what I was promoting and, honestly, I was not completely happy with the moral implications, this tone wood not being sourced from plantations. But it is my decision to not purchase further ukuleles....if I play this one till I am dead, and it gets passed on to someone else who plays it for a long time, then the wood has had a good life and been well utilised.....for it to sit around and not be used would be the crime! Shipping and packaging all take their toll when combined with production of Ukuleles that are under-utilised and only bought to fill "unmet needs" (which I suspect are not uke related, meaning our ukes gives us status)(no intent to offend)

I take my hat off to those who are experimenting with sustainable materials and am anticipating the development of instruments that harness the qualities innovative materials and fabrications can bring us.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:

Anyone want to try playing an uke made of cow leather?

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Erm, if its you that makes it, yes?! lol

Going back to the point of the thread though, it is a good point that if im honest I hadnt considered in my rush to fix my UAS.. I usually try to consider such things in my purchases.

Thanks Chuck for explaining the koa situation, I thought that was the case, but you are much closer and more involved in it than I am. To further complicate the issue, people need to understand that it not just a matter of whether a wood is endangered or not. Lutherie many times requires old, mature trees. I'm sitting here on the beach in Oregon surrounded by large Sitka spruce trees. None of them would be suitable for instrument grade wood. They grow too fast down at sea level, the space between the annual rings in a three foot diameter tree is between 1/4 and 3/8 of an inch. Our local Port Orford cedar has another issue, the local Indian tribes that control most of the existing stands are trying very hard to protect them, but they are being killed by disease. It is a complex issue, in many cases in poorer countries, the local timber is an important source of income for the local people. Do the richer nations have the right to tell them, you can't harvest those, they are endangered? In any case, if this is an issue that concerns you, talk to some of the smaller local luthiers in your area, they are perfectly capable and willing to build instruments out of sustainable woods of your choice.

Brad

The Koa used in Hawaiian ukes today is all deadfall. There is limited resource due to the harvesting of those deadfalls, moreso than the supply of live trees, but, still, with the demand for Koa what it is, lots of Hawaiian ukulele makers are careful about their sources. The Chinese imports have no problem with their supply of mahogany. Even Martin is using Mexican sourced mahogany on their S-0 model. There is little worry of depleting non-Koa materials any time soon.

We asked readers about "Green Ukes" in Ukulele Player Magazine and had little if any interest. I am pretty sure that most people aren't concerned about it.

Al of SpruceHouse ukes builds with sustainable woods and advertises as such. And his ukes are reasonably priced, luthier built, quality instruments.

I've had the basic SO for a year and have thoroughly enjoyed playing it. It may be re-homed (on the marketplace) soon because of an.. um.. all mahogany instrument coming in. BUT, I've been told that the mahogany used is from renewable sources..

I don't think that abstaining from purchasing an already made instrument will help. I think the issue is larger than that. Not sure how to fix it, but te truth is that if you don't buy the Uke, someone else will.

mendel said:

I don't think that abstaining from purchasing an already made instrument will help. I think the issue is larger than that. Not sure how to fix it, but te truth is that if you don't buy the Uke, someone else will.

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What? Consumer boycotts, when organized, can be pretty powerful.
Moreover, people shouldn't compromise their ethics just because their one action won't cause a whole company to fold.

OldePhart said:

While there are certainly labor practices that are outright abusive in some places; much of what we think of as abusive is actually an improvement for the workers concerned. I've spent a little time in asia and often within the lower classes those "abused" factory workers have things pretty good compared to their neighbors.

Click to expand...

So it's okay for buy goods made by virtual slaves as long as they aren't on US soil, as long as they're relatively better off?
Please don't use quotation marks around 'abused' as though it's not an actual reflection of working conditions all over Asia.
Thanks.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not asking anyone to compromise their values or ethics. To each his own... I don't believe in consumer boycotts. I think that there is always going to be someone willing to buy... Especially once prices drop due to decreased demand. The producer is not the enemy... It is the consumer. It is the nature of the beast.

Give it a shot... Ask every UU member not to buy wood of a specific type. See if anyone stops buying it. If it works, I'm in. I want my son to have a planet to live on. I just don't think people will really commit to it.

rasputinsghost said:

So it's okay for buy goods made by virtual slaves as long as they aren't on US soil, as long as they're relatively better off?
Please don't use quotation marks around 'abused' as though it's not an actual reflection of working conditions all over Asia.
Thanks.

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It may be the conditions all over Asia but remember that is their culture. It's not ours. Do you support troops in Iraq? Or even Afghanistan? You don't have to really answer those but the point is that Americans tend to look at world issues through our eyes, not the locals.
I don't agree with the slave camps around the world but is that stopping me from buying goods made in China? No. Why not? B/c I can't buy all American goods. They are too expensiveand the amount of money on gas I'd have to spend to get to a location that sells all American goods would offset the "good" that I am doing.

But I understand the whole "abused" thing

Wow, this seems to be going political real fast.

If anyone bothered to read the article I linked above, the fact is that the burden is on the companies that sell the finished instruments... they are up against all kinds of walls importing goods made with certain woods.

If you buy an uke from a US retailer, odds are it complies with the CITES/Lacy laws.

itsme said:

Wow, this seems to be going political real fast.

If anyone bothered to read the article I linked above, the fact is that the burden is on the companies that sell the finished instruments... they are up against all kinds of walls importing goods made with certain woods.

If you buy an uke from a US retailer, odds are it complies with the CITES/Lacy laws.

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i agree. As mentioned earlier I have read many threads on this and they always get locked. They are interesting though as long as they stay civil.