What's the Step between Learning Scales and Improv Soloing?

Tommy B

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
544
Reaction score
7
Location
San Francisco or thereabouts, CA
Hi everyone. I'm sure this has been covered in various threads, but if I start hunting for them, I'll end up spending the day on UU, which would land me in hot water. :)

For years, I've been jealous of the players who can effortlessly improvise right over a chord progression. When I've asked a few of them what the secret was, they've told me to learn scales. So I've purchased a few books with scale patterns in them, and although I can commit the patterns to muscle memory, I still have no idea how that new skill translates into improvising solos. And none of the books explains it. It's like someone saying, "Memorize the alphabet, and you can write like Shakespeare." There's got to be a missing step(s) in this learning process.

Can anyone explain what those steps are, or point me to any online videos, DVDs or other learning materials that might get me moving from scales to solos?

Thanks.
 
You are working from a wrong assumption. In my opinion (I'm sure some people will disagree with this) learning scales is not the way to go. I don't think I have ever played a single scale on a ukulele.

The secret is to know what notes you can play in a particular key and which notes fit with which chords. You also need to have an understanding of how melodies are structured. It is hard to explain in words without going into a lot of detail, but the long and short of it is that the more you know about the rudiments of music, the easier it will be to play a solo over a chord sequence.

Before someone lays into me for saying you shouldn't play scales, just bear in mind that I am able to solo over a chord sequence. In any case, I am not saying don't play scales. By all means play them if you find them interesting.
 
Last edited:
Tommy, learn the major and minor pentatonic scales to start. Lots of info on how to use them and which ones you might learn first on the internet. The patterns are simple and with a little practice you will be able to pick out notes that go with a particular key. Disclaimer here, I've only played with the hoi polloi.
 
I think Dominator is the best teacher in this department, he might very well be the best teacher out there period ;)
Study up on every video, interview, tabs, lessons, etc. from him.
Do I sound like I think he is the greatest? lol, I guess I think he is :)
 
The alphabet to Shakespeare analogy does apply almost exactly here. The alphabet is needed to write the words that Shakespeare wrote, although knowing the alphabet does not tell you anything about what order to place letters in to craft words; much less which words go together to make a phrase pleasing to the ear.

I get why people say to learn scales, it is to let you know what collection of notes work in a particular key or style. Like pentatonic scales are for blues, etc. If you were to learn all the scales for all the keys, the logic goes, and if you are able to hear someone playing a progression and know what key it is in, then by playing notes FROM that corresponding scale you would (theoretically) never hit a wrong note.

I think to further qualify, it would just be a SAFE note to hit, but the great players never hit a wrong note because they are feeling it and whatever they do just works.

I remember when I took guitar lessons many years ago, I was learning a piece called Mood for a Day - there is a big riff in there that travels all the way down all the strings - and my teacher just said "It's just the natural scale but it ends on F#" I was able to learn a 22-note riff in seconds because I already had practiced the scale a zillion times. BUT what makes it sound so cool? That last note, which is NOT in the scale.

So yes, scales can help, but no, they are not "the answer."

I have been playing for many years and confident soloing still eludes me, but I am getting braver.

Good Luck!
 
Using the scales is kind of the "easy way" to make sure you never play a bad solo note but it also results in pretty boring solos. A lot of guitar teachers who are teaching people whose ambition is to play lead guitar in a rock or blues band will simply say "play the minor pentatonic of the 6th of the key and you can't go wrong." What they mean is this, if the chord progression is in the key of G and staying in the key (no "oddball" chords) then you can play any note from the Em pentatonic scale anywhere in the song and it will not be dissonant. Using the minor pentatonic of the sixth, instead of the major pentatonic of the tonic, gives the song a bluesier feel because you will be resolving to the sixth pretty often.

It's actually not a bad technique if you don't know the song well enough to know where the chords are changing and what they're changing to - but you'll never have a really great solo that way, either. So, if you know the chord changes it is much better to solo over the chords. You'll use a lot more notes from the chromatic scale and the solo will be much more interesting.

EDIT: Oh, one other time when soloing the pentatonic is really handy - if you have one of those jams where you have a couple of lead players "soloing" against each other - if they both stay with the pentatonic they'll never "collide."

John
 
Last edited:
My ukulele teacher addressed this in one of his classes recently. His two main takeaways were:


  • Actually LISTENING to music is just as critical to learning to how to improvise as playing scales, learning theory, etc.
  • You can't teach creativity. And you can't learn it from a book, a YouTube video, a website, etc.
 
I am very far away from there, but I will share something that seems to have helped me. Perhaps some of the experts (all those that have replied are included as are many, many more).

I have a large diagram (looks like a giant organization chart [somewhere about 6 ft long) of "common" and some "un-common keys" spaced across the top. Under each key I have a side by side list of all chords in those keys. Below each chord name I have a copy of a fret board showing note locations, strings and fingering of the chord above. Below the fret board, the strings continue and I have the note information of each string for the chord being played. This may seem weird and may not help your, of anyone else’s need, but it helped me learn relativity of keys, chords, fingering and notes.
 
Last edited:
Good question I've been wondering too. Although I have absolute pitch and a background in music theory so I know what chords and notes I'm hearing - I just have no idea yet where they are on the uke fingerboard! At the first position it's not hard to figure out, but after that, it's like I'm in totally uncharted territory and I'm largely using trial and error, which goes slowly. There has to be muscle memory involved in knowing how to move around the fretboard, which I haven't developed yet. I'm taking it one song at a time, but would like to approach it more methodically.
 
What's between scales and solos? Melodies.

Play the melodies of songs you like. If you can't figure them out, use sheets or tab. Play every melody you like. Play them in different keys. One goal should be to be able to play familiar melodies without sheets or tab. Once you can do this, soloing amounts to coming up with a melody you like in your head and playing it with your hands.

How to come up with melodies? That's a tough question, but you'll likely get some ideas as you play lots of them.
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. So from the responses, I see that some folks start from scales and others start from what "feels right." I'll bet, though, that the first group often ventures outside of the scales, while the latter group often is unconsciously playing within the scales. It seems to me just a difference of approach, which makes sense because people learn differently.

So let me add to the question: Was there a particular practice or exercise you did that helped advance your soloing/improvisation?

Thanks everyone. What a helpful group!
 
What's between scales and solos? Melodies.

Play the melodies of songs you like. If you can't figure them out, use sheets or tab. Play every melody you like. Play them in different keys. One goal should be to be able to play familiar melodies without sheets or tab. Once you can do this, soloing amounts to coming up with a melody you like in your head and playing it with your hands.

Yes! This is another thing my uke instructor recommends, trying to figure out melodies in different keys and different places on the fretboard (rather than relying on sheet music, as lazy sorts like myself tend to do).
 
Tommy,

There are basically two approaches to the mechanics of improvisation:

1. Vertical – you solo according to the current chord.
2. Horizontal – you solo according to the current scale.

I just watched Dominator’s interview with Jim D’Ville, and what he describes as his approach to soloing would be classified as vertical in nature. (That is a very broad statement, I know, but I have not watched any of his other instructional videos. Sorry, D.)

Getting from the mechanics to a passible solo is where your problem lies. The difference between regurgitating scales and/or arpeggios and playing a solo that people find interesting is PHRASING. Phrasing is what gives you the melody formed from a bunch of notes. (Shakespeare from the alphabet.)

It is entirely possible to play a great solo with a SINGLE note… as long as the phrasing is interesting.

But how do you get there? You have to listen to what you are playing, and one of the most helpful exercises in improving phrasing is to sing what you are playing. It may sound corny, but it works. (George Benson built a career around it.)

…and seriously, you don’t have to spit out a thousand notes to sound interesting.
 
Once someone told me soloing was like speaking a language. He said he built up his vocabulary by learning a bunch of licks. At some point he was able to speak by putting things together in a way that sounded good to him.

I've been trying to learn to do this as one would learn a language. I admittedly am stuck on the alphabet and not enough on the words or sentences!
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. So from the responses, I see that some folks start from scales and others start from what "feels right." I'll bet, though, that the first group often ventures outside of the scales, while the latter group often is unconsciously playing within the scales. It seems to me just a difference of approach, which makes sense because people learn differently.

So let me add to the question: Was there a particular practice or exercise you did that helped advance your soloing/improvisation?

Thanks everyone. What a helpful group!

I agree with you about the responses. There's more than one approach that works. Now, to answer your immediate question.

Record yourself or get a friend to play this simple progression. C Am F G. Play it in a slow to moderate tempo with just basic strumming. Loop it for about a minute or until you've had enough. Now, listen to the recording and as you listen, just make up a solo, using any combination of notes, as long as you stay inside the C major scale. Have fun. Some things will sound good to you, some will not. But, it's important just to be free for a bit. Staying within the major scale is a safety net that will help you learn.

Once you've had a bit of fun with the free play, you can refine your solos a bit. First of all, consider the rhythm. Try for a balance of notes and silence. Hold some notes for longer. It's perfectly okay to have a spare solo, you don't have to fill up every micro-second with sound.

Next, think of target notes. For instance, when you're playing over the C chord, try playing the notes that make up that chord: C-E-G, more often. It's important to keep this loose, and not be too rigid about it. Think of these as guidelines.


Later on, you can try soloing over other simple progressions: C Dm F G. C Em F G. C G Am F.

This is is just a starting point. I do something similar with my students, but it depends on the individual student and what they're needs, skills, and issues are. This is something that I hope will at least get you started.
 
Getting from the mechanics to a passible solo is where your problem lies. The difference between regurgitating scales and/or arpeggios and playing a solo that people find interesting is PHRASING. Phrasing is what gives you the melody formed from a bunch of notes. (Shakespeare from the alphabet.)

It is entirely possible to play a great solo with a SINGLE note… as long as the phrasing is interesting.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense about moving from mechanics to soloing. Great way to frame the problem... er, challenge. And the emphasis on phrasing is definitely appreciated. It reminds me of when James Hill starts off "One Note Samba" by just playing one note!

But how do you get there? You have to listen to what you are playing, and one of the most helpful exercises in improving phrasing is to sing what you are playing.

Another golden idea! I'm definitely a singing uker, so I can see that this might be an effective way for me to mentally connect with the song's melodic structure. I'll try this tonight.
 
Record yourself or get a friend to play this simple progression. C Am F G. Play it in a slow to moderate tempo with just basic strumming. Loop it for about a minute or until you've had enough. Now, listen to the recording and as you listen, just make up a solo, using any combination of notes, as long as you stay inside the C major scale. Have fun. Some things will sound good to you, some will not. But, it's important just to be free for a bit. Staying within the major scale is a safety net that will help you learn.

Great, great, great idea!

I can see how all these responses could be tied together: I could record a progression, play the melody over it, "sing" a solo over that while using the scale of the song and paying attention to phrasing ... and on and on. Looks like I'll finally put my Zoom multitrack recorder to use.

This is exactly what I was hoping for: some real-word exercises to try to mentally connect with the concept of soloing instead of just staring at scale patterns in a book.
Thanks again, everyone!
 
...It is entirely possible to play a great solo with a SINGLE note… as long as the phrasing is interesting.

…and seriously, you don’t have to spit out a thousand notes to sound interesting.

+1 - think about B.B. King - he can put more "feeling" into one held note than Malmsteen and friends can manage playing every note on a fretboard in under two seconds!
 
Top Bottom