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Ukejenny
11-12-2014, 02:04 PM
:rulez: I am a rule follower. I believe in teaching in an orderly fashion, and also believe it following the good traditions and methods passed down.

But I cannot do this any longer! If we name the strings in the order of G - C - E - A, then G is the "top" string. G is the "first" string. When I say, "top string, second fret", I am referring to the dad gum G string!

And that's the way it shall be!!!!!! :mad: My head says that is the right way. My heart says that is the right way. I cannot name the strings one way and then order them in the opposite way. Freud would support my decision. Or maybe not, but that's it. Done. :shaka:

Nickie
11-12-2014, 02:08 PM
LOL Ukejenny, I'll try to remember that when we play together....this up down up down is so confusing now....sh----!

CeeJay
11-12-2014, 02:19 PM
Ah yes ...but when we physically go down the neck toward the sound hole with the left hand we are actually going "up"....and then when we play above the 12th fret towards the nut with the right hand we are playing "up" the neck , although going in the opposite direction to the left hand and down in tone value of the string :rolleyes:....


Still ,if you think the uke (or similar strung style instruments) are tricky try and teach a kid to tell the time on an analogue watch ....then see if you get conniptions LOL

*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QVPUIRGthI

*
Sorry...off topic ...but have a coffee and a cookie and some chuckles...

Bob-in-Alberta
11-12-2014, 02:42 PM
I heard an explanation in regards to string numbering the other day that made sense to me. The strings are numbered the same as the floors in a building. One, or the first floor as it may, is on the bottom and the fourth string or floor is on the top.

CeeJay
11-12-2014, 02:56 PM
I heard an explanation in regards to string numbering the other day that made sense to me. The strings are numbered the same as the floors in a building. One, or the first floor as it may, is on the bottom and the fourth string or floor is on the top.


Good ......but too serious ....but very good..............except I spot the flaw in your cunning plan/arguement/plot......in the UK (crusty barstewards that we are ) we insist on a ground floor ...then 1 2 3 etc ....so unless we are going to have an instrument that is tuned G and F on the first string ......hmmmmmmmmm

I applaud your arguement / explanation though sire......and hope it works where there is more sense ...

VegasGeorge
11-12-2014, 03:37 PM
I always thought the strings were numbered by a Violinist. If you think about it, when you pick up the Violin and tuck it under your chin, the closest string to you is the 1st string. It's only when you get sloppy, and start playing holding the instrument in you lap, that the 1st string is the furthest from you.

CeeJay
11-12-2014, 03:53 PM
I always thought the strings were numbered by a Violinist. If you think about it, when you pick up the Violin and tuck it under your chin, the closest string to you is the 1st string. It's only when you get sloppy, and start playing holding the instrument in you lap, that the 1st string is the furthest from you.

Aha ...cunning .......So there you have it folks ...
when in doubt stick your uke
next to your left ear
and under your chin
and then count and grin...
And say to yourself
I wish Ma had bought me a Violin :agree:


VG you are genius...................:shaka:

wayfarer75
11-12-2014, 04:26 PM
Violinists don't get to decide for everyone else! :rulez:

CeeJay
11-12-2014, 04:28 PM
Violinists don't get to decide for everyone else! :rulez:


Well who does then ?........not .....a ...........trrombonist........never trust a musician whose instrument changes shape.............damn ...quick Ma ...hide my Ackordeens....


:p

Bob-in-Alberta
11-12-2014, 05:32 PM
Good ......but too serious ....but very good..............except I spot the flaw in your cunning plan/arguement/plot......in the UK (crusty barstewards that we are ) we insist on a ground floor ...then 1 2 3 etc ....so unless we are going to have an instrument that is tuned G and F on the first string ......hmmmmmmmmm

I applaud your arguement / explanation though sire......and hope it works where there is more sense ...
Serious, I resent that. I'm forced to be serious at my workplace and don't like that at all. I spend my days with some of the most extreme anus puckers in existence (that would be tight asses in layman terms) that the last thing that I would try to be here is serious. But if that is the way that my comment was taken then please accept my humble apologies. Also, note to self, i shouldn't really be responding while contemplating life on Scotch #3.

southcoastukes
11-12-2014, 05:45 PM
:rulez: ...If we name the strings in the order of G - C - E - A, then G is the "top" string. G is the "first" string. When I say, "top string, second fret", I am referring to the dad gum G string!...:shaka:

Oh, Jenny!!

You're right, of course, but just try to change convention. Actually there are some people who use your logic backwards, and say that C tuning, for example, should be A E C G! I occasionally get inquiries with this sort of notation, and I always have to scratch my head for a minute to figure it out.

Actually, I'd say those folks may have as good an argument as yours, and from a string makers perspective, I much prefer it. That way we don't have to reverse the labeling on all our packets!

P.D: Convention also has the 4th string as the "top" string (nose to toes), so you could call out a G string (in C tuning) as the "top string", but not as the 1st string (it's the 4th).

IamNoMan
11-12-2014, 06:36 PM
I always thought the strings were numbered by a Violinist. If you think about it, when you pick up the Violin and tuck it under your chin, the closest string to you is the 1st string. It's only when you get sloppy, and start playing holding the instrument in you lap, that the 1st string is the furthest from you.Actually the string closest to the bow is the first string

Violinists don't get to decide for everyone else! As a banjo player I think you have a good point.

Well who does then ?........not .....a ...........trrombonist........never trust a musician whose instrument changes shape.............damn ...quick Ma ...hide my Ackordeens....OK Banjos, Trombones, Accordions, I guess we have to include Violas in this group too. Ut Ohh!


I am a rule follower. I believe in teaching in an orderly fashion, and also believe it following the good traditions and methods passed down.Jenny: "Top string" is cool. Naming the strings g C E A is cool. Sadly the string numbering tradition is firmly ensconced. The best teaching method in music I know of is learning from other musicians. Do you want to give that up?

kohanmike
11-12-2014, 06:58 PM
What's incongruous is that when listing the strings by note, it's goes from the string at the top edge down to the bottom edge (G-C-E-A, 4-3-2-1), but when using numbers, it goes from the bottom edge up to the top edge (1-2-3-4, A-E-C-G). No wonder it's confusing.

Jim Yates
11-12-2014, 07:05 PM
I have always called my strings by pitch rather than gravity.
I know that it causes a lot of confusion when some folks use gravity and call the first string the bottom string since it's closest to the floor. These same folks often talk about playing up the neck, meaning closer to the nut, or the higher frets as being closer to the nut since they're further from the floor.
Other folks (me) call the first string the top string since it is the highest pitched and playing up the neck means closer to the bridge since the pitch gets higher. The higher frets are closer to the bridge for the same reason.
Now if you are one of the "Gravity people", then it doesn't matter if your instrument is re-entrant like the 5 string banjo or ukulele, but it gets confusing to us "Pitch people" when we have a re-entrant tuned instrument.

VELARCA
11-12-2014, 07:43 PM
Ok, now I'm confused, I've been playing for only a few months and belived that I had that sorted out... Well, I'm back in square one... ��

Down Up Dick
11-12-2014, 08:00 PM
The answer is simple: Call them X-Y-Z-S and therefore no up or down and no confusing numbers. XYZS is easy to remember, but some other word could be used. It's difficult to find one without a musical note in it though.

Where thar's a will, thar's a way! :old:

Redeyejedi
11-12-2014, 09:54 PM
trying to figure all it out as a grom has me on confusion as well. i just try to use the terms 'first', 'second' etal for frets only and refer to the strings by the tuning.

CJ- funny stuff with that vid, reminds me of what happens when i tell kids about pagers, getting up to rotate the television dial, and rotary phones. damn 1234strings..... oh, and the up and down the neck still has me confused, my brain says up is higher in the elevation...towards tuners. and higher up the fret towards the bridge makes total tonal sense to me.

CeeJay
11-12-2014, 10:20 PM
Serious, I resent that. I'm forced to be serious at my workplace and don't like that at all. I spend my days with some of the most extreme anus puckers in existence (that would be tight asses in layman terms) that the last thing that I would try to be here is serious. But if that is the way that my comment was taken then please accept my humble apologies. Also, note to self, i shouldn't really be responding while contemplating life on Scotch #3.


Hellfire man ....way toooo serious :rolleyes: NOT.....

Scotch #3 ...perhaps you could send one this way ...not now......too early ,even for me ....

keep it slippy......


PS

I should have been serious at my work place...but unfortunately the Mischief Imp refused to stay at home
.....still ...

hollisdwyer
11-12-2014, 11:03 PM
It seems perfectly correct to me but then again we Aussies are upside down on the bottom of the planet. Even the water swirls down the toilet bowl the opposite way to the ones in the Northen hemisphere.

SteveZ
11-13-2014, 02:09 AM
And then there are we non-traditionalists who tune instruments for our musical convenience (I tune fifths) rather than adhere to pre-packaged strings criteria. For me its CGDA and GDAE (or is it ADGC and EADG?). Oh, well, a C chord is still a C chord....

VegasGeorge
11-13-2014, 03:04 AM
Actually the string closest to the bow is the first string

Actually, you're right about that. But I think it's probably the string closest to the hand, or the one that naturally falls under the Index finger, remembering that on a Violin, the hand is wrapped up and around the neck. But that's somewhat academic, as I've never heard a Violinist call the stings out by number, only by note name.

We could do the same, naming our strings GCEA, except for the fact that we keep changing the pitches of those strings.

I've changed my mind. Now I thing we number the strings from the bottom up because the A string is typically the first string to break, unless, of course, you have a wound low G. ;)

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 03:46 AM
I heard an explanation in regards to string numbering the other day that made sense to me. The strings are numbered the same as the floors in a building. One, or the first floor as it may, is on the bottom and the fourth string or floor is on the top.

For this theory to work, you would need to start with the top floor number on bottom and then the floor highest up would be named floor 1.

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 03:48 AM
Serious, I resent that. I'm forced to be serious at my workplace and don't like that at all. I spend my days with some of the most extreme anus puckers in existence (that would be tight asses in layman terms) that the last thing that I would try to be here is serious. But if that is the way that my comment was taken then please accept my humble apologies. Also, note to self, i shouldn't really be responding while contemplating life on Scotch #3.


Meheheheheheheh.... you said, "anus pucker". Bonus points to you.

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 03:48 AM
Well who does then ?........not .....a ...........trrombonist........never trust a musician whose instrument changes shape.............damn ...quick Ma ...hide my Ackordeens....


:p

This. Yes. This man gets me.

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 03:52 AM
I have always called my strings by pitch rather than gravity.

Yes, I am also trying to teach my ukulele students the string names instead of saying, "first, second, third, fourth...", but I get lazy and lapse into that mess and then the kid looks at me and is like, "top what? C is the top, right?".

I am going to try to use open pitch names only and just turn my back on the whole Who's On First argument. Take the high road!!!!

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 03:53 AM
Ok, now I'm confused, I've been playing for only a few months and belived that I had that sorted out... Well, I'm back in square one... ��


Well, pooh. That was not my intent by starting this thread. Please try to scrub all of this out of your brain, because it won't help your playing one bit. Just keep going with what you are doing right now and you will be okay.

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 03:56 AM
And then there are we non-traditionalists who tune instruments for our musical convenience (I tune fifths) rather than adhere to pre-packaged strings criteria. For me its CGDA and GDAE (or is it ADGC and EADG?). Oh, well, a C chord is still a C chord....

Actually, a C chord can also be a B# chord, so this whole music theory thing is just a ruse invented by cruel, manipulative people centuries ago.

Down Up Dick
11-13-2014, 03:57 AM
If we didn't use the dratted tabs, everything would be alllllright! If someone says "play a G please", we would just play a G. One could play a G any way he darn well pleased. There are five Gs on a soprano Uke, so one could just play it high-low-or in the middle. The problem is caused by our reliance on the silly tabs.

I've been fingerpicking lately using music, and it sure is easier for me. I'm still working to get comfortable with the tabs though.

Down with the silly tabs! :old:

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 04:02 AM
... did someone say Scotch? ... :shaka:

I also remember my string teacher in college only referring to the strings by open pitch name, and not by numbers, but this makes sense because those strings are not on top of one another when you hold the violin - they are lying beside each other on the same horizontal plane.

So, in that grand tradition, I will teach myself, my students, and help friends by only referring to ukulele strings by open pitch name and then using numbers for the frets, with the lowest pitched frets being first.

My conscience is clear and I thank you all for your support during this pedagogical and ethical crisis.

Jon Moody
11-13-2014, 04:35 AM
Actually, a C chord can also be a B# chord, so this whole music theory thing is just a ruse invented by cruel, manipulative people centuries ago.

Don't confuse people like that, even though it's true but incredibly rare (most would opt to play in the key of Db over C# anyway).

stevepetergal
11-13-2014, 04:41 AM
You only have to call the strings by their traditionally correct numbers when dealing with your luthier, or ordering a string or parts. Go ahead and call them Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo. (Groucho must be #1 by the way).

stevepetergal
11-13-2014, 04:45 AM
And then there are we non-traditionalists who tune instruments for our musical convenience (I tune fifths)

Want to give a guy a heart attack? Tell your piano tuner to try this.

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 04:47 AM
You only have to call the strings by their traditionally correct numbers when dealing with your luthier, or ordering a string or parts. Go ahead and call them Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo. (Groucho must be #1 by the way).

How about Paul, John, George, and Ringo? Who would go first in this scenario?

Ukejenny
11-13-2014, 04:50 AM
Don't confuse people like that, even though it's true but incredibly rare (most would opt to play in the key of Db over C# anyway).

Except for the choral folks - the more sharps the better for that lot. I've done many a church gig with E#'s and B#'s abounding. It sucks. We clarinetists also like the flat side of the circle of fifths.

But I digress... ;)

Jon Moody
11-13-2014, 04:54 AM
Except for the choral folks - the more sharps the better for that lot. I've done many a church gig with E#'s and B#'s abounding. It sucks. We clarinetists also like the flat side of the circle of fifths.

But I digress... ;)

I've been on the opposite side of that, playing in musical theatre pits for years where singers just LOVE going into six/seven flats for twelve measures and then going up a half step to something completely unrelated. Most sharps I've seen in that genre has been five, maybe six. And then again, it changes quickly.

Rllink
11-13-2014, 06:30 AM
I'm working my way through a particular book, which will be un-named here because the author has already called me out for my criticism, but in this book to which I refer, the author explains right off the bat that in his book the fingers will be T, I, M, R. But then he starts talking about fretting with the first, second, and third finger. It took me a while to realize that the TIMR was just for the strumming hand, and that we were going to use a whole different designation for the fretting hand. Maybe that is standard, and I didn't know that. But it was confusing.

I'm good with the first string on the bottom. I too thought that it seemed backward when I started, but I can work with it. I realize that there has to be some consistency in the art if we are all going to be working off the same page, but I don't consider those to be rules. While I follow rules fine, I don't follow them until I test them, and I've found plenty of ukulele rules that don't pass the test. I do not respect rules that exist for no purpose. So I'm often perceived as person who can't follow the rules, when I'm not.

DownUpDave
11-13-2014, 07:18 AM
Time to throw some more fuel on the fire. Calling them by note is the most fool proof way, no doubt about it. Also Top string is on the top and bottom string is on the bottom. Most people get it when you say top or bottom.

I was taught that the string numbers 1,2,3,4 were like floors on a building, lowest to the ground is first or #1 next up is second or #2 etc, etc. Works great for me, must be a Canadian thing as "Bobfromalberta" said the same thing.

Now we read some music written on a tab sheet and it is reversed the A string is NOW on the TOP :wtf::wallbash::wallbash::wallbash:

Tootler
11-13-2014, 07:25 AM
Except for the choral folks - the more sharps the better for that lot. I've done many a church gig with E#'s and B#'s abounding. It sucks. We clarinetists also like the flat side of the circle of fifths.

But I digress... ;)

The piece our choir is currently working on has a section in six flats. For singers it doesn't realy matter - at least it doesn't to me as I think in relative pitches. I reckon choir arrangers have a down on accompanists and it's a form of revenge for past torture inflicted by piano teachers.

Write it in lots of sharps/flats then throw in a few accidentals to confuse the singers :wallbash:

VegasGeorge
11-13-2014, 07:31 AM
Well, let's not forget about double sharps and double flats, symbols x and bb, which could come in handy when considering such heady issues as string numbering.

RichM
11-13-2014, 08:02 AM
You only have to call the strings by their traditionally correct numbers when dealing with your luthier, or ordering a string or parts. Go ahead and call them Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo. (Groucho must be #1 by the way).

But what if Zeppo retires after my first five songs, and I have to play with only three strings for the rest of my career?

mailman
11-13-2014, 08:12 AM
... did someone say Scotch? ... :shaka:

I also remember my string teacher in college only referring to the strings by open pitch name, and not by numbers, but this makes sense because those strings are not on top of one another when you hold the violin - they are lying beside each other on the same horizontal plane.

So, in that grand tradition, I will teach myself, my students, and help friends by only referring to ukulele strings by open pitch name and then using numbers for the frets, with the lowest pitched frets being first.

My conscience is clear and I thank you all for your support during this pedagogical and ethical crisis.

This is what I do, and what I recommend to others. Why accept a convention that encourages confusion? You've answered your own question....;)

Jim Yates
11-13-2014, 09:05 AM
I have always heard bass players describe their tuning as being an octave below the bottom four strings of a guitar and baritone uke players say they're tuned like the top four strings of a guitar. In my experience, most guitar players would think of the bass strings as the bottom or low strings and the treble as the top or high strings.
The words low/high, bottom/top and down/up can be very confusing when we're talking about music.
I have also met folks who mix them and call the first string the bottom string, but if you ask them where the high string is, they say it's the first string as well.

I wonder how many of you think of low pitched notes when you pay up the neck and high pitched when you play down the neck?

Of course that might depend on how you hold the guitar. Billy's up the neck would be differet from the young lady's...and what would be "up" for the guy in the middle?

72852 72853 72854

PhilUSAFRet
11-13-2014, 10:22 AM
problem comes with calling them "top string", "bottom string", etc. It's first, second, etc.

Man walks into a doctors office and says "doctor, when I do this, my arm hurts"....you know the rest LOL

IamNoMan
11-13-2014, 10:56 AM
All these conventions. People at Conventions are always so serious. I like Festivals. Have fun. Music Theory causes a lot of this confusion. I like to play by ear. Lets call the strings My.Dog.Has.Fleas. My ear goes along with this. As for poor Steve, well any when who tunes in fifths for convenience, well that's OK but why doesn't he call it sevenths?

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 11:40 AM
But what if Zeppo retires after my first five songs, and I have to play with only three strings for the rest of my career?


Then Tune strings EEA and call it Balalaika......Simples ............;)

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 11:45 AM
There's a very good reason to number the courses from the right to the left (or, as we typically hold ukes and guitars, from toes-most to nose-most): when you add strings, as on a guilele, rajăo, cuatro, harp-guitar or whatever, the numbering of the common strings remains consistent. Strings are almost always added to the "bass" end, to extend the range. This numbering also means that the common strings between baritones and guitars are numbered the same. Why should "1" be on the top, in any case? Look at a typical graph.

What is intuitively "right" to one person doesn't necessarily make sense to others, using different (and perhaps more appropriate) frames of reference; that's why conventions develop—so most folks refer to the same things in the same way. "Up" is bridgeward because it reflects pitch (and has little to do with how you physically hold the instrument, else what would "up" mean when you switch to a lap-laid dulcimer or dobro?) That's also why when you go "up" from one string to another, you move toward the floor. Strumming direction being opposite, well, I can't answer that one, except that strumming and right-hand positioning is a more physically-oriented activity, and the directions for it are given in more physical (and instrument-specific) terms. Frankly, I was taught correctly from the start, and can't recall having been especially confused, except when people apply their own ideas of what's "right" by using the set terminology in a completely conflicting manner.

The tuning lettering going left-to-right makes the most sense since it reflects how you see the instrument pictured (vertically) in diagrams of the tuning, as well as in chord charts. A tuning is almost always specific to the instrument (especially in number of courses).

I know (or hope) this thread was started in a humorous vein, so pardon my injecting these serious observations. It's important that everyone stays on the same page; the more folks understand what the conventions ARE and why they exist, the easier it will be for all of us. When people use "up" to mean nutward, or renumber the strings to fit their worldview, or give tunings or chord spellings in right-to-left order, it mostly creates confusion, complicating explanations that were intended to be helpful and leading to divisive misunderstandings. Why would you do that??

Nah ..it's important to you because you are ..... "anus puckered" I think was the delightful expression used......dry as a stick and no I don't pardon your injecting these serious observations........so there ....you invited me to ,I declined your kind invite.........:uhoh::nana::smileybounce:


Half the fun of music is taking the mickey out of other musicians and conventions ....so don't get all bent out of shape (I think I heard this phrase on the Simpsons ...we do get that in the UK you know) and probably hit the "Ignore " button....

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 12:17 PM
Fine, confuse yourself and others with your fanciful, contrary terminology, but don't ask "anus puckered" people like me for help. We don't have the patience to keep telling you, "No, the other 'up', dumbass." :p

Wahaaaay a sense of humour emerges......thank God .......or is it just a snide aside ...ah well ...I'll take it as emergent humour but slightly "pickled" from lack of use:p



..at least you have not reached for the ignore button so there is hope for us yet......:o

pritch
11-13-2014, 12:24 PM
I realize that there has to be some consistency in the art if we are all going to be working off the same page,

That, for me, is the nub of the thing. Recently I was part of a conversation where someone was referring to the strings in reverse order and I found that confusng initially.
That there were people new to ukulele present is likely to perpetuate the confusion.

Recently I was watching an instructional video on YouTube where a guy was using the word "triplets" to describe what I would call a triple roll or triple strum. The word triplets is already used in music and means something different. If you only want to talk to yourself, fine, you can use any names you like. If, however, you want people to understand what you are saying it would be better to stick to the accepted usage.

Misuse of language isn't just a ukulele thing, when triathletes decided to hold a race without a swim leg they decided to call the result biathlon. Reasonable enough, but if you turned up to the Olympic sport of biathlon in cycling or running kit you would be seriously underdressed.

There is another example that springs to mind, the word referred to an athlete having totally depleted their store of liver glycogen. That word though has been misappropriated and now means something completely different. But this is a family show...

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 12:43 PM
If people did not speak unless they were sure that they knew absolutely everything that they were speaking about the world would be a very quiet place........


Somebody wiser than me said that ......great ...a light hearted ,fun thread ...hijacked by the cogniscenti......it's a ukelele..........come on ...

DownUpDave
11-13-2014, 12:54 PM
If people did not speak unless they were sure that they knew absolutely everything that they were speaking about the world would be a very quiet place........


Somebody wiser than me said that ......great ...a light hearted ,fun thread ...hijacked by the cogniscenti......it's a ukelele..........come on ...

Cee Jay

A uke jam I attend has three rules posted on the screen at the start of the session

#1: Have fun
#2: Help your neighbour
#3: Sing like you mean it.

No where does it say "One must know what they are doing to join in".That is what I like about the ukulele and ukulele people in general

bonesigh
11-13-2014, 01:02 PM
This annoys me too Jenny!! Must be a certain mind set. I told the seniors that I'm teaching the usual, dare I say "right" way, that it is done then the way I'm gonna do it G (1st string) C (second string) etc. After all I say GCEA right? Great Cats Eat Apples in my world (:

Pueo
11-13-2014, 01:12 PM
I agree with the sentiment that someone long ago decided the convention of which string is the first string, second, etc. and that is consistent with other stringed instruments like guitars, banjos, violins, etc. So we just need to learn that is the way it is and deal with it. What causes confusion is when people use words like top string and bottom string, Because is that bottom pitch or bottom location? What about a lefty? What about a lefty that plays a right-handed instrument upside down? That is why there IS a convention. The first string is the A string, when tuned in C. AHA! That is why we do not use letter names. See? What if you tune A D F# B? Then the first string is a B string and the fourth string is the A string.

There. I said it. I feel better now. :D

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 01:13 PM
Cee Jay

A uke jam I attend has three rules posted on the screen at the start of the session

#1: Have fun
#2: Help your neighbour
#3: Sing like you mean it.

No where does it say "One must know what they are doing to join in".That is what I like about the ukulele and ukulele people in general

We are in agreement then ?

Sorry ... .... my post and the little quote was aimed at Ubulele and Pritch as a little poke in the ribs.....they are saying that we should all be cast in the concrete of convention....

I believe in the slight wobble of the Jelly of mischief and am with you totally....except #3....I try not to sing at all .....have you heard an elephant breaking wind in a flappy leafed forest after a surfeit of bananaanananas ? (easy word to start typing...hard to stop)

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 01:19 PM
I agree with the sentiment that someone long ago decided the convention of which string is the first string, second, etc. and that is consistent with other stringed instruments like guitars, banjos, violins, etc. So we just need to learn that is the way it is and deal with it. What causes confusion is when people use words like top string and bottom string, Because is that bottom pitch or bottom location? What about a lefty? What about a lefty that plays a right-handed instrument upside down? That is why there IS a convention. The first string is the A string, when tuned in C. AHA! That is why we do not use letter names. See? What if you tune A D F# B? Then the first string is a B string and the fourth string is the A string.

There. I said it. I feel better now. :D


Yes ....but they must have been left handed ....cos the first string that I encounter is the one under my nose ....and sometimes it am Bb ...sometimes it am A...and mostly it is G ....unless it is a geetar and then it am E ...so there .....this confusion has been cleared up ....the conventioneer was a lefty who played his instrument like Jimi ...a "righty" upside down .....simples ...to quote a very famous meerkat....

Rllink
11-13-2014, 02:01 PM
Yes, on printed music it's clearest if you can refer to right-hand fingering by letters and left-hand fingering by numbers, since a teacher may need to refer at any point to either one or both. The classical guitar convention follows Spanish, so the standard lettering there is pima (if I recall, pulgar, indicio, medio, and anular), with letters in lowercase.


I refer to strings by number instead of tuning pitches because I play both baris and tenors (giving explanations that may refer equally to either), and sometimes play other tunings (like open G, with two G's, or Bb; and D used to be the prevalent "standard" tuning). Why is it confusing that the floor-most string is "1"? It's a fact you learn once, and done, and it's less arbitrary than labeling the right-hand index finger "1" (many cultures would intuitively call this "2", since they start counting from the thumb, and there's little reason it's not "4", starting from the pinky). I don't like to encourage the sort of mental fixity that traps people into thinking in terms of a fixed tuning. The string numbering is simple, consistent and completely independent of tuning. If it's "confusing" to a student, you haven't explained it well. Yep, what you said. ;)

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 02:01 PM
That you haven't detected the humor in my many posts only attests to your own obtuseness in that domain. There are more refined expressions of humor than the Stooges. I know you'll reply with your usual overbearing bombast, but as far as I'm concerned, this gratuitously personalized aspect of the discussion is closed. No one can prevail in reasoned discussion with the online equivalent of a barroom drunk.

How rude and ignorant ...and intrinsically intellectually snobbish .....however I shall not be lured into the equivalent of an online ambush designed to provoke a response that you desire.......

Although I will add that I do find your comment regarding "barroom drunk" as offensive ,puerile and deeply deeply pathetic .....and the fact that you wish to "prevail" indicates that your mindset is being as one who will wish to dominate,subjucate and be the only winner in any discourse ...so debate , humorous or any other with you is clearly out of the question....tut tut .............

Rllink
11-13-2014, 02:05 PM
If people did not speak unless they were sure that they knew absolutely everything that they were speaking about the world would be a very quiet place........


Somebody wiser than me said that ......great ...a light hearted ,fun thread ...hijacked by the cogniscenti......it's a ukelele..........come on ... Yep, it is like, "I'm a real musician, because I take seriously a simple four stringed instrument that has a history of being played on beaches and under coconut trees, while girls in grass skirts swing their hips back and forth dancing to the rhythm." Hahaha. :D Personally, residing in that image is where I want to be, so don't be trying to get me into some other one.

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 02:17 PM
Like, "I'm a real musician, because I take seriously a simple four stringed instrument that has a history of being played on beaches and under coconut trees, while girls in grass skirts swing their hips back and forth dancing to the rhythm." Hahaha. :D Personally, residing in that image is where I want to be, so don't be trying to get me into some other one.

I think my quote may have backfired ....ah well ...not the first time ...


I 'm with you Rlink ....I am not with Ubulele ....we seem to have fallen out ...oh Dearie Me ,What A Shame......I think the uke is as daft as a brush with no bristles ...it is a simple four string instrument that has great fun potential...great music potential and that it is being hijacked by some who should leave it alone and keep to their sophistry and intellectualism and bugger off and leave us to enjoy the fun that is beach,birds,barbeques and bars ....and as I have been accused of being a barroom drunk I shall glaise my arss and have a swift one....

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 03:52 PM
What ? I have stirred nothing .... I have had a spat with Ubulele based on his attitude towards myself and I have PM'd the OP to apologise for any unpleasantness.........

why is that.....oh this is pointless as you have put me on your "ignore list"..

I think I may be on a few others.....

Jim Yates
11-13-2014, 07:44 PM
Yes ....but they must have been left handed ....cos the first string that I encounter is the one under my nose ....and sometimes it am Bb ...sometimes it am A...and mostly it is G ....unless it is a geetar and then it am E ...so there .....this confusion has been cleared up ....the conventioneer was a lefty who played his instrument like Jimi ...a "righty" upside down .....simples ...to quote a very famous meerkat....

I think you must have meant "...was a lefty who played his instrument like Libba ...a righty upside down".
Libba Cotton turned the right handed guitar over without changing the strings (apparently because her brother, the owner of the guitar she learned on, wouldn't let her).
72879
Jimi Hendrix often used a right handed guitar, but he did reverse the strings to make it a lefty guitar.
72880

CeeJay
11-13-2014, 10:36 PM
I think you must have meant "...was a lefty who played his instrument like Libba ...a righty upside down".
Libba Cotton turned the right handed guitar over without changing the strings (apparently because her brother, the owner of the guitar she learned on, wouldn't let her).
72879
Jimi Hendrix often used a right handed guitar, but he did reverse the strings to make it a lefty guitar.
72880



OOOps ...stood corrected ....my bad ...but ya get the drift . So the -- conventioneer started --- oh ...all the fun has gone out of this now ...

buddhuu
11-13-2014, 10:58 PM
Golden Rule of the board: Don't be a jerk.

It's not hard to remember. The next reminder will be a break from the board for those with selective amnesia.

If you want to squabble do it by PM so the rest of us don't have to read your childish noise.

Thanks.

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 03:13 AM
I've been on the opposite side of that, playing in musical theatre pits for years where singers just LOVE going into six/seven flats for twelve measures and then going up a half step to something completely unrelated. Most sharps I've seen in that genre has been five, maybe six. And then again, it changes quickly.

Preach It!!!!!

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 03:17 AM
Well, let's not forget about double sharps and double flats, symbols x and bb, which could come in handy when considering such heady issues as string numbering.

How DARE you... invoking the X and bb.... The Nerve!!!! (giggle)

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 03:24 AM
I know (or hope) this thread was started in a humorous vein, so pardon my injecting these serious observations. It's important that everyone stays on the same page; the more folks understand what the conventions ARE and why they exist, the easier it will be for all of us. When people use "up" to mean nutward, or renumber the strings to fit their worldview, or give tunings or chord spellings in right-to-left order, it mostly creates confusion, complicating explanations that were intended to be helpful and leading to divisive misunderstandings. Why would you do that??

I'm not so sure it is important that everyone stays on the same page. Why would I want to do that? I want to play the ukulele and have fun. That is probably a different page from other people who want to play the ukulele and have fun. I am not sure what you mean by "worldview", but this thread has nothing to do with my world view, and yes, it was started in a humorous vein. I love your use of the term "nutward" and hope to incorporate it into my personal jargon.

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 03:30 AM
Recently I was watching an instructional video on YouTube where a guy was using the word "triplets" to describe what I would call a triple roll or triple strum. The word triplets is already used in music and means something different. If you only want to talk to yourself, fine, you can use any names you like. If, however, you want people to understand what you are saying it would be better to stick to the accepted usage.

And see, I have no problem with the term "triplets" being used to refer to a triple roll or triple strum. For me, triple means in increments/divisions of three, so it all works in my mind.

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 03:34 AM
Cee Jay

A uke jam I attend has three rules posted on the screen at the start of the session

#1: Have fun
#2: Help your neighbour
#3: Sing like you mean it.

No where does it say "One must know what they are doing to join in".That is what I like about the ukulele and ukulele people in general

Absolutely! I encourage people to jump in and strum and have fun even if they can't yet get from C to G.

Every musician has to start somewhere. The first year I taught beginning band (6th graders) - I was horrified and was sure I couldn't help them, that it was a lost cause, and "it sounds so very horrible - this is just wrong!" - and it ended up being my favorite age to teach. It is a hot mess until Christmas - then amazingly - they start getting it. I love to help people get it. And if I have to teach in an unconventional manner to help that happen, I'm willing to do that.

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 03:47 AM
Can we all agree that whatever is working for you in your appreciation and pursuit of ukulele is a good thing?

Goodness, I want no hurt feelings caused by this thread. The original post was meant in slightly sarcastic jest. There is nothing wrong with my mind not liking to number the strings from bottom to top. Every mind works differently. If your mind embraces that, then that is also totally good. If your mind doesn't, that is also totally good.

I worry that new members at UU will read the last few pages of a thread like this one and get turned off, for whatever reason. Some of us have a dry sense of humor, but I don't think anyone wants to hurt feelings.

If you are new to UU and to the ukulele, what you are doing right now to play and learn is GREAT! Keep on keeping on and don't be scared to try new things. If you are a "seasoned" player, what you are doing right now to play and learn is GREAT! Keep on keeping on and don't be scared to try new things.

Hakuna Matata, people... No Worries!!!!!

Rllink
11-14-2014, 03:52 AM
I think my quote may have backfired ....ah well ...not the first time ...


I 'm with you Rlink ....I am not with Ubulele ....we seem to have fallen out ...oh Dearie Me ,What A Shame......I think the uke is as daft as a brush with no bristles ...it is a simple four string instrument that has great fun potential...great music potential and that it is being hijacked by some who should leave it alone and keep to their sophistry and intellectualism and bugger off and leave us to enjoy the fun that is beach,birds,barbeques and bars ....and as I have been accused of being a barroom drunk I shall glaise my arss and have a swift one....No, see, I was not directing that at you, I sort of jumped in and was running with you. If you get my drift.

Rllink
11-14-2014, 03:58 AM
Can we all agree that whatever is working for you in your appreciation and pursuit of ukulele is a good thing?

Goodness, I want no hurt feelings caused by this thread. The original post was meant in slightly sarcastic jest. There is nothing wrong with my mind not liking to number the strings from bottom to top. Every mind works differently. If your mind embraces that, then that is also totally good. If your mind doesn't, that is also totally good.

I worry that new members at UU will read the last few pages of a thread like this one and get turned off, for whatever reason. Some of us have a dry sense of humor, but I don't think anyone wants to hurt feelings.

If you are new to UU and to the ukulele, what you are doing right now to play and learn is GREAT! Keep on keeping on and don't be scared to try new things. If you are a "seasoned" player, what you are doing right now to play and learn is GREAT! Keep on keeping on and don't be scared to try new things.

Hakuna Matata, people... No Worries!!!!!Well, I've enjoyed your thread. I sure wouldn't want a brawl breaking out, but a little chest bumping just livens things up a little. I personally like to see some emotion when we are discussing things, and a couple of guys butting heads just adds flavor if you ask me. Of course, I've been in more than a few brawls myself in my younger days, and they weren't over the internet, so I'm no stranger to it. It would take a lot to offend me.

CeeJay
11-14-2014, 04:53 AM
No, see, I was not directing that at you, I sort of jumped in and was running with you. If you get my drift.

R'link ...Re-reading what I wrote I can see that it does read as though I had fallen out with you ...No buddy far from it .

Ubulele and I had a little tete a tete mano a mano spat which is what I meant by "we have fallen out"...I have written to Ukejenny apologising ....and yes I do get your drift which is a bit like my drift as well , so lets just lets drift harmoniously plinking away ....GCEA 4321....hey is that the answer .....count it backwards ......Blinding flash of light ...run out of bathroom shrieking Eureka ....get arrested for indecency.....or for being in possession of an unadorned ukulele....

ooo-er Missus , Turned Out Nice Again....no probably not:cheers:

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 07:08 AM
I thank you for your flavor and energy, and I agree. Passion in a discussion is bound to happen when musicians are together.


Well, I've enjoyed your thread. I sure wouldn't want a brawl breaking out, but a little chest bumping just livens things up a little. I personally like to see some emotion when we are discussing things, and a couple of guys butting heads just adds flavor if you ask me. Of course, I've been in more than a few brawls myself in my younger days, and they weren't over the internet, so I'm no stranger to it. It would take a lot to offend me.

Ukejenny
11-14-2014, 07:10 AM
In addition, I appreciate Ubulele and everyone else here for their passion and flavor. It takes a village. And though every village has to have at least one idiot, I don't think it is any of us. :nana:

pritch
11-14-2014, 09:58 AM
And see, I have no problem with the term "triplets" being used to refer to a triple roll or triple strum. For me, triple means in increments/divisions of three, so it all works in my mind.

I was thinking about this when driving home from the shops yesterday, (there was no other traffic). I think "triplets" refers to three notes played in the space of two. A triple roll is three chords in the space of two, so it's not that different. I'm just learning so I like to keep things simple.

Meanwhile back on topic; in another thread I found this little gem:

"A keiki walks into the Kamaka ‘ukulele factory on South Street and tells Sam Kamaka, “I want to buy a flea string for my ‘ukulele.” When Sam suggests the kid means a “C” string, the little keiki replies, “No, I don’t! When my kumu[teacher] tunes my ‘ukulele, she sings ‘My-dog-has-fleas’ and it’s the flea string that broke!”

CeeJay
11-14-2014, 11:36 AM
I was thinking about this when driving home from the shops yesterday, (there was no other traffic). I think "triplets" refers to three notes played in the space of two. A triple roll is three chords in the space of two, so it's not that different. I'm just learning so I like to keep things simple.

Meanwhile back on topic; in another thread I found this little gem:

"A keiki walks into the Kamaka ‘ukulele factory on South Street and tells Sam Kamaka, “I want to buy a flea string for my ‘ukulele.” When Sam suggests the kid means a “C” string, the little keiki replies, “No, I don’t! When my kumu[teacher] tunes my ‘ukulele, she sings ‘My-dog-has-fleas’ and it’s the flea string that broke!”


Chuckle out loud.....nice one....:biglaugh:

Chopped Liver
11-14-2014, 11:41 AM
"a keiki walks into the kamaka ‘ukulele factory on south street and tells sam kamaka, “i want to buy a flea string for my ‘ukulele.” when sam suggests the kid means a “c” string, the little keiki replies, “no, i don’t! When my kumu[teacher] tunes my ‘ukulele, she sings ‘my-dog-has-fleas’ and it’s the flea string that broke!”

:D That is funny!

IamNoMan
11-14-2014, 12:19 PM
Recently I was watching an instructional video on YouTube where a guy was using the word "triplets" to describe what I would call a triple roll or triple strum. The word triplets is already used in music and means something different. If you only want to talk to yourself, fine, you can use any names you like. If, however, you want people to understand what you are saying it would be better to stick to the accepted usage...Misuse of language isn't just a ukulele thing...In the banjo world triplets, triple rolls and triple strums=fan, are three different things and then you have the pesky 1/8th note. In 2/4(cut time) 1/8 1/8 = 1/8 (1/8 1/8). I think banjo folks say this is a fermata but I think its more for-kaka.

VegasGeorge
11-14-2014, 02:46 PM
"Three in the space of two" is a correct but odd way to look at it. It would result in players trying to count three against two, which is something I learned to do, but only just barely. Typically, a triplet is described as three played in the space of one note of the next longer duration, i.e., eighth note triples played in the space of one quarter note, quarter note triplets played in the space of one half note, etc. But I think your description is fun to think about!

Jim Yates
11-14-2014, 07:34 PM
"Three in the space of two" is a correct but odd way to look at it. It would result in players trying to count three against two, which is something I learned to do, but only just barely. Typically, a triplet is described as three played in the space of one note of the next longer duration, i.e., eighth note triples played in the space of one quarter note, quarter note triplets played in the space of one half note, etc. But I think your description is fun to think about!

I have always thought of one beat triplets as being three notes in the place of one quarter note, and they have given me no troubles. While I have no trouble with lazy triplets now, I found them much harder to play at first. I still think of them as three notes in the space of two quarter notes. While I know that they are written to look like three eighth notes or three quarter notes, I can't seem to think of one beat triplets as eighth notes or two beat triplets as quarter notes, since they have different time values.
I used to have to think of April In Paris in order to play lazy triplets accurately.

Ukejenny
11-15-2014, 03:24 PM
"Three in the space of two" is a correct but odd way to look at it. It would result in players trying to count three against two, which is something I learned to do, but only just barely. Typically, a triplet is described as three played in the space of one note of the next longer duration, i.e., eighth note triples played in the space of one quarter note, quarter note triplets played in the space of one half note, etc. But I think your description is fun to think about!

Actually, 3 to 2 is pretty common in wind band literature. Say this. Plop-Plop-Adop (said like 1-2-&3). Both hands hit on the first Plop. Right hand only on the second Plop. Left hand hits on the A. Right hands hits on the dop. The right hand is doing the 3 and the left hand is doing the 2.

Slightly like rubbing your stomach while patting your head...

Love the Flea String joke - that is priceless!

CeeJay
11-15-2014, 03:31 PM
Actually, 3 to 2 is pretty common in wind band literature. Say this. Plop-Plop-Adop (said like 1-2-&3). Both hands hit on the first Plop. Right hand only on the second Plop. Left hand hits on the A. Right hands hits on the dop. The right hand is doing the 3 and the left hand is doing the 2.

Slightly like rubbing your stomach while patting your head...

Love the Flea String joke - that is priceless!

Plop -plop -a dop......? "bleah !!!! "....as Snoopy would say .......this takes me back to the "where do you play your uke ? thread" ...but on a very bad day.........

VegasGeorge
11-15-2014, 04:49 PM
Yeah, I didn't learn how to play two against three (playing both the two and the three) until I was in a solfeggio class at conservatory. The instructor made us drum our hands on our desks until we got it, then we practiced it every class session. It's like riding a bicycle, once you get it, you never forget it. I can do it right now, (just did it) even though I hadn't tried it in several years. Oddly, it's easier if you use a foot to keep the one beat, so you're (I'm) actually playing all three at the same time, one against two against three.

Ukejenny
11-15-2014, 05:36 PM
Yeah, I didn't learn how to play two against three (playing both the two and the three) until I was in a solfeggio class at conservatory. The instructor made us drum our hands on our desks until we got it, then we practiced it every class session. It's like riding a bicycle, once you get it, you never forget it. I can do it right now, (just did it) even though I hadn't tried it in several years. Oddly, it's easier if you use a foot to keep the one beat, so you're (I'm) actually playing all three at the same time, one against two against three.

You are ready for a trap set, my friend.

bonesigh
11-15-2014, 05:54 PM
LOLlolLOLlol!

R'link ...Re-reading what I wrote I can see that it does read as though I had fallen out with you ...No buddy far from it .

Ubulele and I had a little tete a tete mano a mano spat which is what I meant by "we have fallen out"...I have written to Ukejenny apologising ....and yes I do get your drift which is a bit like my drift as well , so lets just lets drift harmoniously plinking away ....GCEA 4321....hey is that the answer .....count it backwards ......Blinding flash of light ...run out of bathroom shrieking Eureka ....get arrested for indecency.....or for being in possession of an unadorned ukulele....

ooo-er Missus , Turned Out Nice Again....no probably not:cheers:

Tootler
11-15-2014, 11:51 PM
"Three in the space of two" is a correct but odd way to look at it. It would result in players trying to count three against two, which is something I learned to do, but only just barely. Typically, a triplet is described as three played in the space of one note of the next longer duration, i.e., eighth note triples played in the space of one quarter note, quarter note triplets played in the space of one half note, etc. But I think your description is fun to think about!

It's how it's normally described here and how I learnt it and it didn't give me a problem. I always understood it as playing three notes where you would normally expect two.

stevepetergal
11-16-2014, 03:25 AM
How about Paul, John, George, and Ringo? Who would go first in this scenario?

You're kidding, right?! John, for every reason.