When does One plus Two equal Two?

There is a thread in Uke Talk on conventions: http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?102057-I-just-can-t-take-it-any-more!/page9 , where the 1/8 notes are mentioned. Basically The convention is 1/8n + 1/8n = 1/8n + (1/8n + 1/8). I have run into it occasionally but do not pretend to understand it. I probably even employ this convention when I playing, without realizing it consciously.

I know about pick-up notes: i.e. The first and last measure of a tune have to add up to the number of beats in the time signature. Thats why you check the last note in the tune to verify the Key.

I know about fermatas: i.e. a note followed by a birdseye is really half again as long. 1/8* = 1/8 + 1/16.

I have a handle on syncopation and the DU DDU DU strumming conventions.

I do not understand: 1/8n + 1/8n = 1/8n + (1/8n + 1/8). HELP!

What? This discussion cracks me up! I thought I'd read and seen and heard just about everything possible about the poor ubiquitous eighth note. And now this! I have to say I don't believe a word of it. Hogwash! Poppycock! Balderdash!

George believe it! I don't know if this one is the fault of the play by ear crowd or if its the music theorists but its real. I don't understand it. I probably play this way anyway but with no cognitive understanding. Ubulele's explanation sort of makes sense but 2/4 time = 6/8 time is ludicrous on the face of it. IDK.

Edit: George if you want to discuss Pancho Villa, The Maine, Cinco de Mayo, filibusters or George Santa Anna, etc I'm your guy.

It's math. To me da da da is three 8th notes in 3/8 or 6/8 time, or triplets in a duple meter. and dum-ba bum-be is combining the first two 8th notes into a quarter note and keeping the third 8th note alone, making the swingy feel.

1/8 + 1/8 = 2/8 which is 1/4. If composers/writers want to take shortcuts when writing out jigs or stuff, that is their decision. For whatever reason, they think it is too much effort to write out the triplets or the real rhythms and expect the performer to understand what they want played.

There are great differences between written popular music and classical music. I've seen lots of music written straight with the notation "swing feel" at the top. We know what to play and how to play it, but I could also go back and swing the notes and notate them exactly by writing them out. I do tons of runs of 5's, 7's, or 9's, even 11 notes in one beat.

OK, I've played in a couple of really good studio jazz bands, so I think I know the difference between "straight" and jazz or "swing." But I've never heard anyone suggest the formula: 1/8n + 1/8n = 1/8n + (1/8n + 1/8) to express that difference. I know a lot about music, but only a little about math. But I did get an "A" in ninth grade math, and I did take algebra. And I can tell you that 1/8n + 1/8n would equal 1/4n, and that (1/8n + 1/8) would also equal 1/4, and that 1/8n + (1/8n + 1/8) equals 3/8n, or a 1/4n and an 1/8n. Every measure of music is written to specifically include the exact number of beats called for in the time signature. In other words, the rests and notes have to add up. You just don't get an extra 1/8n in there anywhere. That's nonsense. Jazz players who seem to stretch out some notes have to make up for that by shortening other notes. Sometimes, the stretch goes over a bar line or two, but the drummer is keeping time just like a metronome, and pretty soon that good old first beat coincides with the player's first note in the measure once again. And if you go back and assign time values to what was played, it all adds up correctly. No extra 1/8n anywhere.

Ubulele, I do not know if I am talking about a shuffle or a Swing/Swung rhythm. I understand now what you mean by 2/4 = 6/8 or in jazz 4/4 is played as 12/8 - and this is called a swing. Ignoring the jazz connotation for the time being; If I'm playing cut time I am really playing six increments to the measure. The duration of two increments is nominally an eighth note. But only nominally. If I'm playing a shuffle three increments constitute an 1/8n and 1/8rest and 1/8n. The sounding of the first 1/8 note is still going on during the rest giving the appearance of a variable length 1/8n. If I'm not playing jazz 4/4 time is strictly what it says it is whether or not it sounds stilted.

Am I any closer to enlightenment here?

What are the bloody Italian words for Shuffle and Swing?

Cut time means that all note and rest durations are cut in half, making the tune go twice as fast. Quarter notes are now played like 8th notes. Half notes are now played like quarter notes. It is all fractions.

ubulele said:

Well, it's not a matter of being too lazy to notate the real rhythm, because that's not easy to express in simple terms (the meter usually being in reality somewhere between duple and triple meter); it's a matter of giving leaving expressive license, since the degree of swing is quite variable. Swing is widely understood, and mostly applied intuitively. If notators attempted to write everything exactly, the result would be notational clutter. It's a case of "less is more." When you play rock songs and the like, you probably swing your strums without giving it much attention. If you played the eighths with equal duration, the result would largely sound stiff and insipid.

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I've never played anything written out that is somewhere between duple and triple meter - or I may not be getting what you are saying. If you are playing in a group, you need to be all swinging the same amount so you keep the jee-haw going together. Notational clutter is why so many marches are written in cut time. It is a cleaner notation that can be played fast without all the extra ink. Most music I've seen with extensive artistic license is a lead sheet where you take a ride and do your thing. For classically trained musicians, you'd see this in a cadenza, where the notes are written out, but you push and pull and make it your own. There are quite a few shortcuts in music notation. I've been playing for over 30 years and I still see things that are new and require some interpretation. The one thing that holds a jazz band together is the rhythm section - got to have it and has to be locked in solid.

One of the "funnest" things I've ever done in a group is play something where half the performers are playing in a feel of 6/8 and the other half of the group is playing with a straight duple feel of 2/4. Or, when you are playing in 7/8 and the rhythm is 4 against 3 for some and more of a 3 against 4 for others - so everyone still has 7 beats per measure, but the "feel" is working both ways.

Here is a song a group I'm in is working on now - you can hear all the rhythms working "against" one another, as in not lining up. Triplets above swingy rhythms, different meters. Lots of stuff going on, but there has to be a common thread of a beat to hold it all together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpca-kI_x6c

I'm sorry for using band excerpts, but listen to the introduction to this Holsinger tune. Listen to the mallet instruments - the bells and whatnot. There is a lot of stuff going on. You aren't sure what meter it is in... Then the mallets seem to solidify into some kind of pattern, but it isn't with the wind instruments. Through all of that missmash, there is a common thread. They are all counting it as their music states and they will line up on certain beats. This whole song is a great example of crazy rhythmically things going on - layers and layers of stuff. It is wicked fun to play.

Crikey.Whatever happened to "feeling it"?.............

IamNoMan said:

What are the bloody Italian words for Shuffle and Swing?

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Those would be "riordino ed oscillation."

ubulele said:

To express it clinically and mathematically... It may be "all fractions" as UkeJenny asserts, but those fractions are often irrational.

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I understand what you mean but Pythagoras is rolling over in his grave.

Ok, lets take this one step beyond. 9/8 time for all those lovely Balkan songs. What's the proper rhythmic approach to take hear?

For meter - this is what many band kids are taught - look at the top number. if it is divisible by 2, then that will be played in a 2 feel. If it is divisible by three, then it will usually have a three feel. Now, that is saying there won't be a 2 feeling meter full of triplet notes, which would give it a 3 feel.

So, 3/4 time 3 beats a quarter note equals one beat.
4/4 time 4 beats a quarter note gets one beat
2/4 2 beats a quarter note gets one beat
3/8 3 beats an 8th note gets one beat (think fast three)
6/8 6 beats an 8th note gets one beat (but can be thought of as 2 beats - 1 and a 2 and a, 1 and a, 2 and a.....)
9/8 9 beats an 8th note gets one beat (but can be thought of as 3 beats - 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a, 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a......)

You can also have 12/8 time - 12 beats per measure, 8th note gets one beat. I think of that in a 4 feel - triplets.

"odd" meters, like 7/8 or 5/8, you have 7 or 5 beats per measure, 8th note gets a beat. You can count to seven over and over, or you can split it up into four and three, or two and three. 7/8 (1-2-1-2-1-2-3, 1-2-1-2-1-2-3) those are your 8th notes.

IamNoMan said:

I understand what you mean but Pythagoras is rolling over in his grave.

Ok, lets take this one step beyond. 9/8 time for all those lovely Balkan songs. What's the proper rhythmic approach to take hear?

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For this, I would definitely do it in a three feel, with triplets for each group of 8th notes. You can fly when you count it this way. And after a while, you can stop thinking of it as 1&a 2&a 3&a and just go 123 123 123 123... the 8th note triplet-ie feel just happens.

This Balkan gypsy song sounds like 12/8 to me, at least up to about the 1:50 mark. Then there's a slower kind of duple meter. At 3:30 it is just a mash of 16 notes in a fast four (cut time and then some!!!). How do they do that!!!!!! Folk music - like this, bluegrass, Celtic... - so hard to play and master.

Check This Out!!!!!



It took me a minute to get this... but here's how I'm counting it. Start at :45 into the song.

1& 2& 3& 4&a 1& 2& 3& 4&a. Okay. so it is three sets of 2 and then a triplet on the end. Still adds up to nine, but what a crazy way to count it!!!!

And this guy is going so fast. DURN!!!!!!

Swing is usually notated as eighth note and often these instructions will appear at the top of the notation.


Ukejenny, I don't think we should call this example of 9/8 "three sets of 2 and then a triplet on the end", since a triplet indicates three notes in the space of one beat and in this case the three eighth notes get the same value as the eighth notes in pairs. One way to show the time might be this. The bold italics get the stress.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo A La Turk used this form of 9/8 time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlVasHbipo

An Irish slip jig is also in 9/8 time, but counted 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2ncRM5WWlU

Jim Yates said:

Swing is usually notated as eighth note and often these instructions will appear at the top of the notation.
View attachment 73108

Ukejenny, I don't thin we should call this example of 9/8 "three sets of 2 and then a triplet on the end", since a triplet indicates three notes in the space of one beat and in this case the three eighth notes get the same value as the eighth notes in pairs.

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I would never ever count it that way - I wouldn't be able to go fast enough to get it up to tempo. The way I'd count it is actually 1&2&3&4&a - and that last grouping does feel like a triplet to me. The way the guy plays it, also feels like a natural triplet. So, to my brain, I absolutely will count it like a triplet. You can have a triplet placed over two counts. Happens in my clarinet music all the time. Triplet just means 3. Duplet means 2. That's just how my brain works it out.