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Ukejungle
11-20-2014, 08:32 AM
I rescued an Old Martin Style 1 with Friction Tuners. Had to fix a crack on the back of it , really like the Uke but the Friction Tuners, ugh....

Anyone ever put Pegheds on an old Martin? And -----

Will I kill the value of this uke putting Pegheds on it?

Thanks.
Trey

HBolte
11-20-2014, 08:37 AM
I really like Pegheds but I think the value as a vintage uke will be gone. I have just taken the tuners apart and lightly oiled them. Once the strings are settled you don't have to tune it often.

Ukejungle
11-20-2014, 09:07 AM
I might have got the wrong terms here. These are the wooden hardwood friction pegs (before gears) on this ukulele.

I have learned to tune sharp then come back down to pitch as the best alternative to date.

PhilUSAFRet
11-20-2014, 09:49 AM
Some folks would install pegheads and keep the violin style tuners for future use. They may have to be re-fitted though to restore back to vintage.

IamNoMan
11-20-2014, 09:58 AM
A playable vintage instrument is more valuable than a non-playable vintage instrument. Both are still vintage instruments. My new Martin 1T came standard with Pegheds. Replacing components of older instruments with more functional ones is very common. There is one problem with the Pegheds you should be aware of: they are threaded into the headstock. This is a potential hazard when installing them in a vintage headstock. The headstock may need rebored, and or the Pegheds epoxied into the headstock. If the old friction pegs are NFG replace them with functional tuners.

thread drift: I have seen vintage Fairbanks Banjos which were originally equipped with friction pegs, had fill marks from geared tuners on the headstock, and were equipped with modern planetary tuners. The asking and selling prices were very high. A vintage instrument that plays well is of more value than a playable vintage instrument.
******************
Saw your second post. If you have authentic whittled fiddle tuners try using fiddle rosin on them to improve the tuning characteristics. Previous comments are still valid. What year Martin are we talking about here? ******************
EDIT:DO NOT USE FIDDLE ROSIN
BlackBearUkes;1613985]Chalk is better than nothing, but Rosin will act like glue, it is too sticky. The best thing to use is peg dope made for the occasion. Also, make sure the tapered holes and pegs are fit correctly. Nothing will help poorly fit pegs, while a good fitting peg will need very little to hold.END EDIT
http://home.provide.net/~cfh/martin_ukes.html

HBolte
11-20-2014, 03:48 PM
I don't have any trouble with the wooden friction pegs on my '26 Style O. I thought they would be a pain but again, once the strings settle in they work fine. I strongly disagree with the post above that says it will be more valuable. A ukulele with wooden friction pegs is very playable. Like I said above I think the Pegheds on my MB are excellent but Pegheds on a vintage Martin would make it worthless to me.

IamNoMan
11-20-2014, 04:14 PM
HBolte: I agree that a uke with wooden pegs is very playable. I have contacted Fred Oster at Vintage Instruments to get his views on the whole Peghed tuners on a vintage Martin. CF Martin usually refers appraisal issues to him. I'll let you know his views.

Why do think Pegheds would make a Martin with fiddle peg tuners, (o.e.m.), worthless? The old Martins didn't have nylon or fluorocarbon strings.

HBolte
11-20-2014, 04:29 PM
HBolte: I agree that a uke with wooden pegs is very playable. I have contacted Fred Oster at Vintage Instruments to get his views on the whole Peghed tuners on a vintage Martin. CF Martin usually refers appraisal issues to him. I'll let you know his views.

Why do think Pegheds would make a Martin with fiddle peg tuners, (o.e.m.), worthless? The old Martins didn't have nylon or fluorocarbon strings.

I feel that way only because I personally want an original condition ukulele when buying vintage.

Thank you for checking. Looking forward to an expert opinion!

TheCraftedCow
11-21-2014, 06:39 AM
Being a 'Purist" is a relative term. Is it in an original case, or will one use a newer , safer one?
Will one use the same type strings or something which improves the sound? Would frets be dressed or left as time has made them? There are quite a few vintage Martins which have been retrofitted with PEGHEDS. PEGHEDS do not need to be epoxied in. Some use woodworkers glue to create a threaded surface, while others fit them dry. They come with a 27.5mm long shaft or a 19mm shorter version. Some prefer the longer because it looks like an old wooden peg. The shorter ones are less in the way for playing and putting in the case.
Does one buy a ukulele to play or to resell? There are buyers who would see period looking tuners as value added. I have yet to meet a player that enjoyed trying to keep a friction tuner in tune more than playing it. A set of 2L and 2R cost $55.00 plus $6 shipping.

coolkayaker1
11-21-2014, 06:51 AM
PenguinsOfSort owns a Martin soprano with Pegheds that she picked up at Mighty Mo Uke Fest 2013.

Peterjens
11-21-2014, 06:53 AM
...really like the Uke but the Friction Tuners, ugh....

I have a early '20 Style 0. What was good enough for the players during the Roaring Twenties is good enough for me. Once the strings settle in everything's jake.

dirtiestkidever
11-21-2014, 08:03 AM
I don't mind friction tuners. But I think pegheds would look and work great on a vintage martin. I might even pay more for such a uke. Gotoh planetary tuners are awesome but wouldn't look right on an old martin.

RichM
11-21-2014, 08:10 AM
I don't mind friction tuners. But I think pegheds would look and work great on a vintage martin. I might even pay more for such a uke. Gotoh planetary tuners are awesome but wouldn't look right on an old martin.

My second (and now only) Ludwig Wendell Hall came with Stew-Mac Five Star planetary tuners already on it, replacing the creaky friction pegs these originally came with. A huge improvement in tuning, and I can always replace them with creaky old friction tuners if I really want to. :)

Ukejungle
11-21-2014, 08:29 AM
A playable vintage instrument is more valuable than a non-playable vintage instrument. Both are still vintage instruments. My new Martin 1T came standard with Pegheds. Replacing components of older instruments with more functional ones is very common. There is one problem with the Pegheds you should be aware of: they are threaded into the headstock. This is a potential hazard when installing them in a vintage headstock. The headstock may need rebored, and or the Pegheds epoxied into the headstock. If the old friction pegs are NFG replace them with functional tuners.

thread drift: I have seen vintage Fairbanks Banjos which were originally equipped with friction pegs, had fill marks from geared tuners on the headstock, and were equipped with modern planetary tuners. The asking and selling prices were very high. A vintage instrument that plays well is of more value than a playable vintage instrument.

Saw your second post. If you have authentic whittled fiddle tuners try using fiddle rosin on them to improve the tuning characteristics. Previous comments are still valid. What year Martin are we talking about here?

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/martin_ukes.html

I would think anywhere from 1916 to 1927. No serial number in it though so I think the 20's.

Ukejungle
11-21-2014, 08:31 AM
I don't mind friction tuners. But I think pegheds would look and work great on a vintage martin. I might even pay more for such a uke. Gotoh planetary tuners are awesome but wouldn't look right on an old martin.


I agree with you.

Ukejungle
11-21-2014, 08:44 AM
Some pictures of it. 731127311373114

wayfarer75
11-21-2014, 08:48 AM
LOL, ancient tuners are one reason why I bought a new Kamaka with Gotoh UPTs and not a vintage Martin/Kamaka/whatever with old wooden pegs. Talking about value? If you were to have that very uke for sale with Pegheds, I'd buy it. Your uke looks great; tuners break and get replaced all the time. I'm not a collector, I'm a player. I'd love to have the vintage sound with modern tuners that I don't have to get replaced myself. Do it. Put the Pegheds on it.

Tigershark
11-21-2014, 09:38 AM
Martin made over 20,000 Style 1 soprano ukuleles before 1945. It is the second most common instrument that Martin ever made.

I am usually very much in favor of preserving vintage originality. I even have a few old Martins with wood pegs and they are very usable once you take the time to understand and control them.

But on a common model like this, if you feel the Pegheds will make you play more or play better, I don't see a problem with doing what you want. There are plenty of original Style 1 ukes out there. If it was an early Style 3K or something rare, then I would say leave it original.

I would love to try a vintage uke with Pegheds already installed, and I think your Style 1 would still be a very desirable instrument since many people would rather have the geared tuners.

If you decide to make the modification, I could use the wooden tuners for one of my old ukes, so send me a private message or clear out your pm box so I can send you one.

stevepetergal
11-21-2014, 10:08 AM
This is why I have very little interest in the "value" of vintage instruments.

I admit, it's just me. I think an instrument is valuable if it makes music. It becomes more valuable as the music it makes is more beautiful or more versatile, and as the music is easier to make. Market value is without value in a musical instrument.

I would install the tuners I find more valuable to the music than to the investment.

If I have no intention of playing the instrument, I'll keep the old tuners I hate. I don't care if it's hard to tune.

Tigershark
11-21-2014, 11:22 AM
I think an instrument is valuable if it makes music.

There are many ways that we can appreciate a musical instrument - the music it makes is important but it's only one way to experience it. Vintage instruments also have historic importance, cultural relevance, sentimental value, aesthetic beauty... things that people who do not play or even listen to them can understand. All of that is a bonus that comes along with the musical value. Kind of like a little time machine.

mm stan
11-21-2014, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=Ukejungle;1607193]I rescued an Old Martin Style 1 with Friction Tuners. Had to fix a crack on the back of it , really like the Uke but the Friction Tuners, ugh....

Anyone ever put Pegheds on an old Martin? And -----

Will I kill the value of this uke putting Pegheds on it?
A good set of open gotohs works fine for me on martins.. go with that one..

Ukejungle
11-21-2014, 01:55 PM
Martin made over 20,000 Style 1 soprano ukuleles before 1945. It is the second most common instrument that Martin ever made.

I am usually very much in favor of preserving vintage originality. I even have a few old Martins with wood pegs and they are very usable once you take the time to understand and control them.

But on a common model like this, if you feel the Pegheds will make you play more or play better, I don't see a problem with doing what you want. There are plenty of original Style 1 ukes out there. If it was an early Style 3K or something rare, then I would say leave it original.

I would love to try a vintage uke with Pegheds already installed, and I think your Style 1 would still be a very desirable instrument since many people would rather have the geared tuners.

If you decide to make the modification, I could use the wooden tuners for one of my old ukes, so send me a private message or clear out your pm box so I can send you one.

I cleared my inbox out.
Trey

stevepetergal
11-21-2014, 04:00 PM
There are many ways that we can appreciate a musical instrument - the music it makes is important but it's only one way to experience it. Vintage instruments also have historic importance, cultural relevance, sentimental value, aesthetic beauty... things that people who do not play or even listen to them can understand. All of that is a bonus that comes along with the musical value. Kind of like a little time machine.

Yes. That's why I say keep the tired old tuners that don't tune on your museum piece. Save the money for tuners on the one you use to make music. They're both valuable. One is a musical instrument.

peewee
11-21-2014, 06:43 PM
I love the wooden tuners on my 20s Martins. Sure they are primitive, but they are a link to the era, and to the original owner - my grandfather. If they are truly difficult for you, try different pegs in different holes, ie switch them around. If they are stiff, try some violin "peg dope" or brown crayon on the friction areas, if they are slipping, a little chalk might help.
They are incredibly simple and light, and they work fine. Well, the ones on my style 0 work better than the ones on the 1k.
I think they are like a manual transmission on a car, or skiing with telemark bindings, or photography with glass plate negatives or writing a letter with a typewriter. Not everything in life has to be easy and convenient.

But that's just me...

strumsilly
11-21-2014, 07:27 PM
If it makes it easier and more accurate to tune, why not? and pegheads would retain the original looks best.

Rick Turner
11-21-2014, 07:51 PM
It's got a repaired crack in the back; have folks noticed that from the very first post? I'm assuming it's visible, or it wouldn't have been mentioned. This uke has minimal "collector's value"; collectors want mint condition. This is a player. Do whatever makes it the best player. Pegheds will look kind of appropriate and will tune...well...four times as easily if properly installed.

Dare I repeat? This one's a player, not a museum piece.

Peterjens
11-21-2014, 09:55 PM
I'd try peewee's advice before doing anything drastic. Dope it, string it with some Martin M600s. I collect beater Martins and would prefer a Martin with a crack and the original tuners over one with a crack and tuners from a different era.

Pukulele Pete
11-22-2014, 01:42 AM
It's got a repaired crack in the back; have folks noticed that from the very first post? I'm assuming it's visible, or it wouldn't have been mentioned. This uke has minimal "collector's value"; collectors want mint condition. This is a player. Do whatever makes it the best player. Pegheds will look kind of appropriate and will tune...well...four times as easily if properly installed.

Dare I repeat? This one's a player, not a museum piece.
I agree with Rick except I would put on a set of Grover 4B or 4W and you will have a great player. You can install them easily yourself. Good friction tuners work just fine.

ScooterD35
11-22-2014, 02:52 AM
I'm in complete agreement with Rick and Pete here. Tuners, strings, saddles and nuts are, to me, the parts of Ukes and guitars that can and should be replaced when they wear out.

If switching to Pegheds means you will play it more, go for it!


Scooter

wendellfiddler
11-22-2014, 03:02 AM
I had a lovely baritone martin with the mechanical friction pegs - which I hated - and I sold it rather than put pegheds or gohtohs on it - and you know, I've regretted that ever since. I should have changed the tuners.

dt

Pukulele Pete
11-22-2014, 03:57 AM
I had a lovely baritone martin with the mechanical friction pegs - which I hated - and I sold it rather than put pegheds or gohtohs on it - and you know, I've regretted that ever since. I should have changed the tuners.

dt
What type tuners on your fiddles ? I dont understand the dislike for friction tuners .

brimmer
11-22-2014, 04:14 AM
I like the wooden pegs on my Style 2. I really don't think they are hard to tune.

stevepetergal
11-22-2014, 04:26 AM
It's got a repaired crack in the back; have folks noticed that from the very first post? I'm assuming it's visible, or it wouldn't have been mentioned. This uke has minimal "collector's value"; collectors want mint condition. This is a player. Do whatever makes it the best player. Pegheds will look kind of appropriate and will tune...well...four times as easily if properly installed.

Dare I repeat? This one's a player, not a museum piece.

Rick Turner's advice is always right.

HBolte
11-22-2014, 04:48 AM
Museum piece, no. From the looks of the photo it is a nice vintage Martin. I'd never change it. Different strokes, there is no right answer.

wayfarer75
11-22-2014, 04:51 AM
It's got a repaired crack in the back; have folks noticed that from the very first post? I'm assuming it's visible, or it wouldn't have been mentioned. This uke has minimal "collector's value"; collectors want mint condition. This is a player. Do whatever makes it the best player. Pegheds will look kind of appropriate and will tune...well...four times as easily if properly installed.

Dare I repeat? This one's a player, not a museum piece.

Exactly. Just because it's a vintage Martin doesn't mean it is priceless and nothing should be changed. Tigershark posted the number of the style 1 models that had been produced, which was a lot. This isn't a 5K, it has a crack, and it's meant to be played. If the OP wants Pegheds, I see no reason not to put them on. They'll have the same look as the old tuners and work better.

Ukejungle
11-22-2014, 05:03 AM
It's got a repaired crack in the back; have folks noticed that from the very first post? I'm assuming it's visible, or it wouldn't have been mentioned. This uke has minimal "collector's value"; collectors want mint condition. This is a player. Do whatever makes it the best player. Pegheds will look kind of appropriate and will tune...well...four times as easily if properly installed.

Dare I repeat? This one's a player, not a museum piece.

It has become my daily player - Hence the thought of pegheds on it- Thanks Rick.

Ukejungle
11-22-2014, 05:06 AM
Exactly. Just because it's a vintage Martin doesn't mean it is priceless and nothing should be changed. Tigershark posted the number of the style 1 models that had been produced, which was a lot. This isn't a 5K, it has a crack, and it's meant to be played. If the OP wants Pegheds, I see no reason not to put them on. They'll have the same look as the old tuners and work better.

Funny, I did buy this uke to keep me from dragging my 5k out all the time to play it. Nice as they both have bar frets. I don't have to worry much now.

wayfarer75
11-22-2014, 05:08 AM
Funny, I did buy this uke to keep me from dragging my 5k out all the time to play it. Nice as they both have bar frets. I don't have to worry much now.

LOL, I wouldn't play a 5K much either! I'd be afraid I'd break it.

IamNoMan
11-22-2014, 06:32 AM
When I read the posts about the Grover and GOHTOH tuners it made be roll my eyes. Whittled Fiddle Pegs are one thing. The Pegheds are a 4:1 planetary tuner as Rick implied. If the OP decides to go to pegheds use the short shank version if you can. Long shank tuners in a hard case can contribute to neck bowing.

Jim Yates
11-22-2014, 08:53 AM
There are players and there are collectors. All original is not always a good idea. My '62 D-21 came with Kluson tuners, but they eventually developed a "click" which made them very hard to tune accurately with. I replaced them with new Gotoh's which work perfectly and make the D-21 a useful guitar. At the advice of a luthier I have saved the old tuners, but I doubt I will ever sell the Martin.
My brother has a '58 J-50 that came with an adjustable bridge (not one of Gibson's better ideas). Abut 30 years ago he had the adjustable saddle and hardware removed and, though this is an almost irreversible operation and lessens the collectability of the guitar, he is very happy with the results.
I know that Gillian Welch has said in an interview, that she would never let anyone modify her old J-50 with the adjustable bridge. That's why she always plays through a mic. She doesn't want to drill a hole to install a pick-up.

Rick Turner
11-22-2014, 09:55 AM
1) There are less than one handful of Stradivari violins in "original condition". Most have had their necks replaced, usually with the original scroll/peghead box grafted on. The neck angles have been changed. They do not have original bridges nor tailpieces. Most have been extensively repaired and patched which involves taking the tops off...often several times over about 300 years. Agree or not with the prices, but they go for millions. So why are fretted instrument players so hung up on originality, especially when it runs so counter to utility?

Kind of ditto with collectible vintage automobiles... They don't run 'em on original rubber, use original batteries, original oil, original leather...and that's just the start. If you go to a high end auto concourse, you'll see row after row of cars that have been lovingly restored, refinished, and literally made better than new.

2) The Gibson thing...arrrrghhhh! Those adjustable bridges were one of the many stupidest things that Gibson ever did. And it went from bad to worse...first the wood bridge with the wooden adjustable height saddle, then the ceramic saddle, and finally the bolted on plastic bridge with the adjustable saddle. I was replacing them when they were new in 1964! Those guitars ALWAYS sound better with that horrible junk gone, gone, gone. You have to remove all the hardware, patch some holes, and put on a good rosewood bridge that matches the footprint. I suspect that the reason for those adjustable bridges was because they could not figure out how to properly control neck angle in production, and therefore, they wanted an adjustable bridge to set action over a wide range of neck angle. That there is any collectible value to those guitars in original condition just shows how completely whack too many guitar collectors are.

The very worst of the worst was the run of J-200s that had a Tunamatic bridge dropped into the moustache bridge. And those had a massive structure inside that allowed you to screw a top damper up against the bridge plate to kill the guitar acoustically.

Anyway, I think trying to preserve those horrors is just weird.

What are known to many, including a lot of ex-Gibson employees (like me) is that the period from about 1963 on well into the 1980s are known as "The Dark Years". And now? No comment...

I fear Gillian is misguided on that whole thing. I wonder if she'll have it refretted when the time comes. Non-original frets! The guilt!

3) I sense there is some confusion here between true violin tuners...which do hold via friction...and what are sometimes called "patent friction tuners".

Violin tuners work by way of extremely well matched tapers...the conical taper of the peg with a matching socket (or two in the case of a violin pegbox). The true fit is absolutely necessary for these tuners to work smoothly and hold well. The problem is that the woods of the tuner and that of the peghead...different woods, different grain...swell and contract with humidity changes and eventually you're dealing with an oval into an oval...not good! Violin repair techs have special reamers and peg shapers dialed into the correct taper angle for truing up the tuning pegs. Eventually, the holes in violin pegboxes need to be relined with what is known as a bushing and then redrilled and reamed. This is just par for the course with long term violin ownership. Uke players aren't used to this level of maintenance, and so, violin-style tuners are all too often out of whack. Most guitar luthiers do not have the right tools to properly fit violin tuning pegs...and so, they don't work very well in the long term.

What a lot of folks are calling "friction tuners" are what were called "Patent friction tuners", and they work essentially via clamping pressure between the face and back of the peghead with flanges on the top of the tuner post and then some sort of arrangement between the tuner button and the back of the peghead. Some rely just on straight friction with metal on wood, some use semi-compliant washers...leather or plastic, some are even spring loaded. Properly adjusted and maintained, they can work pretty well, though like with violin tuning pegs, you have a direct 1:1 mechanical connection with the strings.

"Pegheds"...invented by Chuck Herrin...look virtually identical to traditional violin tuners, but they're made as "planetary" geared tuners giving you a 4:1 mechanical advantage for finer tuning. So it takes four complete revolutions of the tuner button to accomplish one revolution of the tuner post. All gearing is internal.

Gotoh and other companies like Schaller, Keith, and ABM, catering more to the banjo world, make larger planetary geared tuners that are also 4:1, and the new Gotoh planetaries designed specifically for ukes are quite nice. But they do not have the look of traditional violin-style tuners.

Enough rant for a rainy Saturday...

spongeuke
11-22-2014, 07:59 PM
I've converted all 4 of my ˜1943 Martins to peg heads. These are my designated players. I had to do almost no reaming to get them to fit nice and tight. I had (by luck) a rat tail file with the correct taper for wooden ukulele pegs. I have full confidence that they could be refitted if desired. Since the WWII Martins were all rescued or in need of help, I intend to do what it takes to keep them playing. I feel that an ukulele that is functioning as it should and looks good has a better chance of surviving multiple owners than one that has issues when played. Make'm sing and pass them on.

consitter
11-22-2014, 08:27 PM
*

1) There are less than one handful of Stradivari violins in "original condition". Most have had their necks replaced, usually with the original scroll/peghead box grafted on. The neck angles have been changed. They do not have original bridges nor tailpieces. Most have been extensively repaired and patched which involves taking the tops off...often several times over about 300 years. Agree or not with the prices, but they go for millions. So why are fretted instrument players so hung up on originality, especially when it runs so counter to utility?

Kind of ditto with collectible vintage automobiles... They don't run 'em on original rubber, use original batteries, original oil, original leather...and that's just the start. If you go to a high end auto concourse, you'll see row after row of cars that have been lovingly restored, refinished, and literally made better than new.

*Snip*

...

Running the train off it's track a little...make that a lot...

Some things that lose their value immediately if you put a new finish on one that's a hundred years old or more, even if not in working order, and they are absolutely rusted over--guns and rifles. Stupidest thing I've ever heard. I did that with my great grandfather's old rifle that was made in 1907. The smith I took it to went nuts and told me that I would destroy its value. I told him I didn't care because I was never going to sell it, I just want it looking like it did when it was originally made.

As Forrest Gump would say, "Some things just don't make no sense." He also said, "I gotta pee."

TheCraftedCow
11-23-2014, 11:32 AM
This is an interesting topic. For those of us who are blackpowder shooters, using modern nylon or polyester thread is not period....yet artificial sinew is approved. It's just bigger nylon thread.

PEGHEDS were invented by Chuck Herrin, who is himself a concert cellist. The look of the instrument is unchanged, but the ability to keep it in tune by one person is. PEGHEDS are on
$x,000, $xx,000 and $xxx,000 concert instruments. There is no lighter, less conspicuous geared tuner ever made. Perfection Planetary Tuners are made in China and have a warranty of 45 DAYS, compared to PEGHEDS which have a lifetime warranty if installed properly. That means thread them into the hole the direction which the string would be slackened. When tension is applied, it makes the threads bite in, rather than back out.

We have banjo and guitar sets. In addition to long and short for ukuleles, we are now producing a shorth version of the 5th string for banjos with truss rod. My prices are unbeatable unless you want to buy 36 sets at a time.

wendellfiddler
11-23-2014, 05:02 PM
The baritone had mechanical friction pegs which wear out - and besides - there is no comparison between the way a fiddle and a ukulele function in terms of getting in tune and staying in tune - this is because they are barely similar in build and sound dynamics. I won't even begin to explain that - it should be obvious, but the result to some extent is that a violin, if it's set up right and is any good at all, will stay in tune for a long time (even weeks) once you get it there (and by the way, many have fine tuners to assist the friction pegs for minute adjustment), and in my experience ukuleles slip out of tune with every change in temperature, humidity and even as it's played and the strings stretch a bit.

Pukulele Pete
11-24-2014, 01:35 AM
The baritone had mechanical friction pegs which wear out - and besides - there is no comparison between the way a fiddle and a ukulele function in terms of getting in tune and staying in tune - this is because they are barely similar in build and sound dynamics. I won't even begin to explain that - it should be obvious, but the result to some extent is that a violin, if it's set up right and is any good at all, will stay in tune for a long time (even weeks) once you get it there (and by the way, many have fine tuners to assist the friction pegs for minute adjustment), and in my experience ukuleles slip out of tune with every change in temperature, humidity and even as it's played and the strings stretch a bit.
Geez , my early 1930's Martin Style 1 with original patent tuners will stay in tune for weeks .

Down Up Dick
11-24-2014, 03:56 AM
My old KA-Lai Pineapple had wooden pegs when I got it, but they were lost while I was overseas. Then I put friction tuners on it and hung it on the wall for years. Recently, I got rid of the tuners because they had to be so tight that I could barely turn them. So I put violin pegs in it, and they work fine. I haven't touched it in weeks, and it's still more or less in tune. It's still mostly an orniment, but I like it better with the pegs.

"All's well that ends well!". :old:

TheCraftedCow
11-24-2014, 04:31 AM
Do they change the downbearing tension on a bridge?

Rick Turner
11-24-2014, 07:48 AM
A) You can't extrapolate your own experience with any kinds of tuners broadly out to others, especially with violin-style tapered friction tuners. Differences in woods, differences in climactic changes, differences in the quality of the fit all play into it. If they work for you, that's great; just don't assume that they work well on an instrument you've never seen nor played for someone you don't even know!

B) Neither can you extrapolate your own experience with "patent" friction tuners broadly out to others. There have been a lot of different styles made over the years; friction elements wear out; wood wears; etc. Many "vintage" patent friction tuners can be restored to working just fine; while you may think they're "worn out", new leather washers are often all it takes to bring them back to working as they're supposed to. So if you don't mind the 1:1 ratio, restoration is usually possible.

C) Many players just can't get with the 1:1 tuning ratio and would prefer 4:1 in planetaries or higher ratios in worm & gear style tuners. Give them a break!

D) Violin fine tuners are usually made so they more or less carry on the same strings-over-bridge break angle which is really established by the height of the bridge and the "hinge point" of the tailpiece at the butt end of the violin. So the answer is basically, "no", fine tuners do not alter down pressure (it's not tension, it's compression) on the bridge.

wendellfiddler
11-25-2014, 03:27 AM
Do they change the downbearing tension on a bridge?
Nah - they're on the tailpiece.

dt

wendellfiddler
11-25-2014, 03:31 AM
Geez , my early 1930's Martin Style 1 with original patent tuners will stay in tune for weeks .

That's wonderful. Certainly not the case with any of of my tenors (all high quality instruments). I have to tune them every day. I did take a fiddle out at a gig on Sunday that I hadn't used in almost two months and it was in perfect tune! Not always the case, but also not unusual.

Pukulele Pete
11-25-2014, 04:03 AM
That's wonderful. Certainly not the case with any of of my tenors (all high quality instruments). I have to tune them every day. I did take a fiddle out at a gig on Sunday that I hadn't used in almost two months and it was in perfect tune! Not always the case, but also not unusual.
Sorry if I sounded like a jerk , didnt mean to , but my uke does stay in tune . I thought tuning a fiddle would be the same as tuning a uke with wood pegs. I have a fiddle but havent tried to tune it or play it yet .

Down Up Dick
11-25-2014, 11:45 AM
What the heck is a Peghed? I'm not sure what a friction tuner is either.

I guess I'm old and out of it. :old:

Rick Turner
11-25-2014, 12:56 PM
OK, restraining myself from an extreme attack of snark here...

Dick, go back one page and read. All is revealed. You don't even have to leave this thread. No difficult searches are required. If you can see the screen, you can get the answers to your first explicit question and your second implied one. Go back one page...page number 5. Or if you're really old and perhaps Roman, then it's pagina V.

Down Up Dick
11-25-2014, 01:44 PM
Okay, my bad, I saw your long Ubulele like comment but admit that I didn't read it closely. So, thanks for the answer. Next time I'll read every exciting word of your informative and highly amusing comments.

Whew, being wrong is getting rather wearing. :old:

Rick Turner
11-25-2014, 02:27 PM
I know, I know...I can go on and on, and it really bothers some folks who just want the Twitter version of anything, or they want the square root of Twitter. I do try to slip in enough hard facts, though, to keep some folks amused or informed. Look for at least one relevant fact every three or four sentences. That may be too many...or too few...but hell, I'm a writer and I type fairly quickly. I guess I could just strip it all down to only answering "yes" or "no" questions and ignoring the rest except when I see blatant errors or falsehoods. But people don't so much like the truth, and they resent experience, :cool: so...

wendellfiddler
11-25-2014, 03:56 PM
I know, I know...I can go on and on, and it really bothers some folks who just want the Twitter version of anything, or they want the square root of Twitter. I do try to slip in enough hard facts, though, to keep some folks amused or informed. Look for at least one relevant fact every three or four sentences. That may be too many...or too few...but hell, I'm a writer and I type fairly quickly. I guess I could just strip it all down to only answering "yes" or "no" questions and ignoring the rest except when I see blatant errors or falsehoods. But people don't so much like the truth, and they resent experience, :cool: so...

Hurray for thorough discourse. Twitter is ridiculous. IMHO typical of the dumbing down of the world - if that was even possible!

IamNoMan
12-04-2014, 07:21 PM
Museum piece, no. From the looks of the photo it is a nice vintage Martin. I'd never change it. Different strokes, there is no right answer.I received an Email today from Fred Oster at Vintage Instruments:
"I really would like to comment after seeing good photos. Also, I think the pegheds tuners are a good choice to vintage ukes.

Nickie
12-05-2014, 11:55 AM
http://home.provide.net/~cfh/martin_ukes.html[/URL]

My luthier told me rosin is the worst thing to put on pegs....he said use chalk....

IamNoMan
12-05-2014, 12:00 PM
I guess I'll have to carry some pool chalk around. Did your luthier say why rosin is bad?

Nickie
12-05-2014, 12:16 PM
Sorry...highjacking in progress....he said it sticks to the wood in a way, that if it gets too warm, it will gum up the tuners. And it's impossible to remove except by sanding. Chalk wipes right off....Wish I'd known that when I had a fiddle, I used rosin and made a mess, wound up replacing the pegs....I didn't know any better.

BlackBearUkes
12-05-2014, 02:36 PM
Chalk is better than nothing, but Rosin will act like glue, it is too sticky. The best thing to use is peg dope made for the occasion. Also, make sure the tapered holes and pegs are fit correctly. Nothing will help poorly fit pegs, while a good fitting peg will need very little to hold.

Down Up Dick
12-05-2014, 03:05 PM
OK, restraining myself from an extreme attack of snark here...

Dick, go back one page and read. All is revealed. You don't even have to leave this thread. No difficult searches are required. If you can see the screen, you can get the answers to your first explicit question and your second implied one. Go back one page...page number 5. Or if you're really old and perhaps Roman, then it's pagina V.

Rick, for all your ubulele like going on and on, you didn't really explain what Pegheds were or how they worked. I had to Google them to find out what they were. I guess I know what friction tuners are, so I'm tuner satisfied. If you wanna be snarky (whatever the heck that is) go ahead and shower it on these old gray hairs and bent shoulders. I'll try to muddle through.

This comment is late because I just remembered I was offended. :old:

Nickie
12-05-2014, 03:35 PM
Chalk is better than nothing, but Rosin will act like glue, it is too sticky. The best thing to use is peg dope made for the occasion. Also, make sure the tapered holes and pegs are fit correctly. Nothing will help poorly fit pegs, while a good fitting peg will need very little to hold.

Thanks! I'll look for some, we have two ukes with fricton tuners.

IamNoMan
12-05-2014, 04:31 PM
Edited original post to correct error

Saw your second post. If you have authentic whittled fiddle tuners try using fiddle rosin on them to improve the tuning characteristics. Previous comments are still valid. What year Martin are we talking about here?
EDIT DO NOT USE FIDDLE ROSIN
BlackBearUkes;1613985]Chalk is better than nothing, but Rosin will act like glue, it is too sticky. The best thing to use is peg dope made for the occasion. Also, make sure the tapered holes and pegs are fit correctly. Nothing will help poorly fit pegs, while a good fitting peg will need very little to hold. END EDIT

Rick Turner
12-05-2014, 07:46 PM
UpDown Dick,

Come on now. Put on your damned glasses and read:

"Pegheds"...invented by Chuck Herrin...look virtually identical to traditional violin tuners, but they're made as "planetary" geared tuners giving you a 4:1 mechanical advantage for finer tuning. So it takes four complete revolutions of the tuner button to accomplish one revolution of the tuner post. All gearing is internal.

That's what I posted on Page 5. Concise and accurate. Do I have to hold your hand on this?

Pegheds are planetary geared tuners that look like traditional violin tuners. If you really don't know what "planetary" means, look it up. You want a patent number and full drawings? Do a search. Do I have to hand everything to you on a silver platter, or do you really not like to use Google? Did you really not see what I posted and then referred one and all to? I defined what they are. If you didn't understand my terminology, then that's not my problem, and you are free to do your own research. Researching this stuff is literally child's play these days. You obviously have a computer. Learn how to use it more effectively. It shouldn't take you any longer to find good definitions and drawings for planetary tuners than it's taking me to type this stuff.

Yeah, the snarky Rick is back...with good reason! He gets tired of having to provide obvious answers to people too lazy to get away from forums and into the land of independent research...aka Google and WikiPedia...to mention the big two.

This is NOT rocket surgery nor brain science!

Down Up Dick
12-05-2014, 08:00 PM
Lighten up, Rick, my comment was ment in a semi humorous vein and was maybe a bit heavy handed. I felt our other comments were in the same vein. Sorry I ruffled your feathers. I'll be more careful next time.

Sometimes humor isn't funny. :old:

Larry D.
01-09-2015, 02:33 AM
Lighten up, Rick, my comment was ment in a semi humorous vein and was maybe a bit heavy handed. I felt our other comments were in the same vein. Sorry I ruffled your feathers. I'll be more careful next time.

Sometimes humor isn't funny. :old:

http://www.snarktuners.com/

Damn Dick I must be getting old too!

I had no idea what snarky was so I too had to use some "Rocket Surgery" and Brain Science myself (hell of a combination I must admit but I think in this case it worked) and Google it!

Just like these new fandangled pegheds...by golly Dick they are tuners also. I took Ricks suggestion and put on my glasses only to find out I got one of these Snark clipped onto to my KPK. I guess being snarky is just tuning you up Dick...But I do believe snarky is a good thing....well maybe? :confused:

In case Rick is a lot younger than us Dick and save him some time, new fangdangeled according to the Urban Dictionary means:

1) (or for us I)- Fancy or special.

2) (or for us II)- A fandangle is an elaborate but useless ornament. So if something is fandangled, it has been decorated to the point of excess.

3) (or for us III)- ridiculous.

This is proof that the young and old generations can work together. Thanks to you both this has been an educational experience and prove ole dogs can still learn new tricks. I going to get me a bowl of ice cream for a well earned treat now!

;)

Larry D.
01-09-2015, 03:42 AM
Out of ice cream so did another Google search for snarky Dick.

Snarky:

Being wittily sarcastic with a hint of being an ass-hole.

My first "Rocket Surgery" may have led to an incorrect assumption.

Maybe this Urban Dictionary definition is closer to home for Ricks meaning of being "Snarky" Dick??? ;)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snarky&defid=4118199#image-4118199 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snarky&defid=4118199#image-
4118199)

:deadhorse: