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tangimango
12-25-2014, 10:11 PM
What would happen if one was to build a small soprano using ca glue with accellerator instead if woodglue?

Will it fall apart in few days?

Michael N.
12-26-2014, 12:42 AM
No but why would you use ca ? it's hardly the most pleasant of glues to use and the alternatives are just so easy.

jcalkin
12-26-2014, 06:12 AM
CA glue is stronger than you might think. It should hold a uke together, no problem. But can you work fast enough to put things together before the glue sets?

coolkayaker1
12-26-2014, 06:15 AM
This is just a guess, not being a luthier, but having used CA glue on a couple uke repairs: (a) you will, at more than one point during the build, glue two pieces of wood together and then curse all small animals as, thirty-seconds later, you'll discover that you've glued the pieces on backwards, an irrevocable error, and (b) you'll have fine strings of CA across all flat instrument surfaces, as if an arachnid was trying to web-catch dinner on your instrument.

That said, give it a whirl.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-26-2014, 08:30 AM
I've worked with ca glue for many years and I've often thought about trying an experiment as you suggested and building an entire uke with it. It could also act as a finish as it's hard, can be applied thinly, and it buffs out nicely. I don't see why it wouldn't work and I'd be especially curious to see how it affected the tonality of the uke. The only thing that keeps me from doing it is that ca glue is pretty irreversible if repairs ever need to be done down the road. And ca glue is very unforgiving in the process. If you mess up (or are really messy in working with it) it could be a world of heartaches. Try it and report back to us! ;)

tangimango
12-26-2014, 12:22 PM
The only reason for ca glue is to cut the glue drying time, where ca with axcerator will.dry in seconds.
No but why would you use ca ? it's hardly the most pleasant of glues to use and the alternatives are just so easy.

tangimango
12-26-2014, 12:24 PM
Actually a friend ask me to show him the building process on his grizzly kit or stew mac kit I believe, but I dont have days to show him or for the wood glue to dry overnight, so I was thinking of ca glue

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-26-2014, 03:41 PM
Actually a friend ask me to show him the building process on his grizzly kit or stew mac kit I believe, but I dont have days to show him or for the wood glue to dry overnight, so I was thinking of ca glue

As long as you know it's working properties and have enough experience with ca glue, I'd say go for it.

Titchtheclown
12-27-2014, 12:23 AM
Not all ca glues are created equal. As I understand it pure ca glue is a strong but brittle thing. Wood turners use it to glue work pieces to sacrificial bases where it withstands quite large forces and then remove the base with a sharp tap of the hammer. The more useful can glues are full of additives to make them less brittle, fill gaps better and other useful things.
Do your homework on the glue before you use it.

Beau Hannam Ukuleles
12-27-2014, 04:41 AM
This would be the stuff to use- ca with 1-3 min open time apparently. Ive never use it though

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/159184/Nexabond-2500S-Wood-Glue-4oz.aspx

all of that brand are here
http://www.woodcraft.com/search2/search.aspx?query=nexabond

RonS
12-28-2014, 03:54 AM
No, its not a good idea.

I know of woodturning projects that start to fail after 10+ years. What happens is the CA glue starts to become brittle and a small shock can cause a joint to fail.

resoman
12-28-2014, 05:02 AM
John Calkin mentioned a while back that he was using CA to do his bindings and I asked him about it, especially long term possibilities. He reminded that RC airplane folks have been using CA for years on their airplane builds with good results. There is a lot of stress on those airplanes and they hold together. I should have thought about this as I've built probably 30 airplanes (in the past) with CA and never had a failure. I'm using the CA on the bindings but haven't taken done a complete uke with it.....yet. Still on the hide glue for most everything else.
Here's part of what John said

"Hi Terry-
I've not heard about CA joints going bad. It certainly makes a stronger joint with plastic bindings than solvent glues, and works good with wood trim as well. Will it last for decades? Here's my take on that.
I learned about CA glues (specifically Hot Stuff) back in the '70s from a builder of RC airplanes. It was already the modeler's glue of choice for the entire aircraft. Stunt planes are subject to crazy stresses, and if the glue joints didn't hold up they would have switched in a heart beat. Well, I lost track of that friend as well as the RC scene, but it seems to me that if their planes were falling apart in the sky after a few years the word would have spread pretty quickly."

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-28-2014, 06:01 AM
John Calkin mentioned a while back that he was using CA to do his bindings and I asked him about it, especially long term possibilities. He reminded that RC airplane folks have been using CA for years on their airplane builds with good results. There is a lot of stress on those airplanes and they hold together. I should have thought about this as I've built probably 30 airplanes (in the past) with CA and never had a failure. I'm using the CA on the bindings but haven't taken done a complete uke with it.....yet. Still on the hide glue for most everything else.
Here's part of what John said

"Hi Terry-
I've not heard about CA joints going bad. It certainly makes a stronger joint with plastic bindings than solvent glues, and works good with wood trim as well. Will it last for decades? Here's my take on that.
I learned about CA glues (specifically Hot Stuff) back in the '70s from a builder of RC airplanes. It was already the modeler's glue of choice for the entire aircraft. Stunt planes are subject to crazy stresses, and if the glue joints didn't hold up they would have switched in a heart beat. Well, I lost track of that friend as well as the RC scene, but it seems to me that if their planes were falling apart in the sky after a few years the word would have spread pretty quickly."

As a former model airplane builder I've been using ca glue for the bindings on my ukes for 30 years. I've never seen a hint of a problem.

Titchtheclown
12-28-2014, 09:54 AM
The answer is in the formulation. Pure ca glue is brittle. Addtitves are used to give it different properties. I am sure that plasticisers that evaporate after a while are not uncommon in some formulations. Most manufacturers make quite a few varieties for different applications. A penetrating ca glue mainly used for stabilising in wood turning is a very different animal from a ca glue from a specialty luthier supplier designed to glue bindings and inlays. The fact that you get different results is to be expected.

sequoia
12-28-2014, 05:30 PM
Interesting. If you guys build airplanes with the stuff it has to be good enough for an ukulele. However, ukuleles are not airplanes. I suspect CA glue is the glue of choice because airplanes need to be light and wood glue would be prohibitively heavy. Still, that is a pretty good endorsement. If my ukulele comes apart at least I don't die...

TjW
12-29-2014, 03:51 AM
Oh, CA is generally acknowledged to be heavier than carpenter's glue or the old Ambroid glue. But it's very fast to build with, and more importantly, to repair with.
You can crunch your airplane and ten or fifteen minutes later have it flying again.
I hope most people don't treat their ukuleles like model airplanes.
It's an amazing glue; but that doesn't make it the best glue for all possible applications.

Nickie
12-29-2014, 01:52 PM
I bet I would wind up glueing my hands together....

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-29-2014, 03:09 PM
I bet I would wind up glueing my hands together....

It happens more often that you'd think. I've had to cut my fingers away from my ukes quite a few times. I literally put my blood, sweat and sometimes tears into my work.
You ever hear the song that goes "I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee"? That was written by a banjo maker using ca glue.

bigphil
12-29-2014, 04:55 PM
As a current model airplane builder I can attest that CA holds up quite well over time. A properly made joint using CA will be stronger than the base material if we're referring to wood. I've also see a lot of planes subjected to pretty remarkable impacts due to unexpected contact with the ground. That subjects an airframe to unbelievable G forces and I don't see all the glue joints falling apart in these instances either. Sure there are some glue joint failures but it is not unreasonable to expect 10 Gs or more decelerating from 50-100 mph nearly instantaneously. No glue would perform perfectly in that environment. So personally I wouldn't worry about brittle CA joints.

One other thing, I wouldn't recommend using your ukuleles as a pool cue, baseball bat, or tennis racquet either, so impact failures shouldn't really be an issue. I realize unexpected things can happen but if you're conking your instruments around hard enough to cause glue joint failures... Anyway, I don't conk mine like that.

sequoia
12-29-2014, 06:23 PM
Below is a picture of what CA glue looks like in a catastrophic ukulele failure. It turns to a white sort of powder and loses all holding properties. When CA gives it up, it gives it up totally. It is not very elastic in my experience, but what do I know?

BlackBearUkes
12-29-2014, 07:11 PM
CA isn't meant to be elastic, and why would you use a glue that is elastic? No glue is going to hold up if the uke gets destroyed.


Below is a picture of what CA glue looks like in a catastrophic ukulele failure. It turns to a white sort of powder and loses all holding properties. When CA gives it up, it gives it up totally. It is not very elastic in my experience, but what do I know?

Flyfish57
12-30-2014, 09:05 AM
I fixed a failing bridge on a mid level Chinese guitar this past fall. I don’t know if it was a CA glue they used or not, but it was a mother to get off and half of it already failed. I do use CA a lot more now than ever, but I really don’t like the stuff. Also the day I walk through Martin Guitar and they are all using super glue to brace and joint their Tops and backs, I might not completely dismiss the idea as I do now.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-30-2014, 09:25 AM
I fixed a failing bridge on a mid level Chinese guitar this past fall. I don’t know if it was a CA glue they used or not, but it was a mother to get off and half of it already failed. I do use CA a lot more now than ever, but I really don’t like the stuff. Also the day I walk through Martin Guitar and they are all using super glue to brace and joint their Tops and backs, I might not completely dismiss the idea as I do now.

I would never use Martin Guitar as the standard for my ukuleles!

BlackBearUkes
12-30-2014, 09:31 AM
I can see glueing on braces with CA to their formica laminate guitars (Martin), but I don't think they would use CA on a better quality wood to wood guitar. Talk about a warranty nightmare, and if they do, I'm glad I have an older Martin.


I fixed a failing bridge on a mid level Chinese guitar this past fall. I don’t know if it was a CA glue they used or not, but it was a mother to get off and half of it already failed. I do use CA a lot more now than ever, but I really don’t like the stuff. Also the day I walk through Martin Guitar and they are all using super glue to brace and joint their Tops and backs, I might not completely dismiss the idea as I do now.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-30-2014, 03:01 PM
I fixed a failing bridge on a mid level Chinese guitar this past fall. I don’t know if it was a CA glue they used or not, but it was a mother to get off and half of it already failed. I do use CA a lot more now than ever, but I really don’t like the stuff. Also the day I walk through Martin Guitar and they are all using super glue to brace and joint their Tops and backs, I might not completely dismiss the idea as I do now.

The bridge is one area where I'd certainly never use ca glue on. That and anything to do with the neck/body connection. Some of these critical bonds need to be reversible.
But as someone else mentioned, I really don't see the point of using ca on an entire build. If time is a concern, Titebond holds strong enough to be handled within 20 minutes and there's still plenty to do while glue is drying.

Vespa Bob
12-30-2014, 05:34 PM
As an ex RC model builder, I have to add my two cents on the subject of CA glues for uke building. When CA's first became popular, everyone loved them for their speedy drying time in getting crashed planes back in the air. Later, as confidence in the reliability of the adhesive increased, complete air frames were built using CA, with the exception of parts where some re-positioning of parts were required. So it is with ukuleles, in my opinion. Things like braces, kerfing, binding and such, should be fine glued with CA glues, as opposed to neck, tops and such. I think that tradition is to blame for the slow acceptance of the use of CA adhesives for instrument building. My opinion, of course, as a newcomer to the craft, but with experience in gluing bits of wood together! Remember, the adhesive is only as strong as the material it holds together.

Bob

coolkayaker1
12-31-2014, 01:15 AM
http://youtu.be/kk5Wtlkw5e4

Some reasons to use Tite Bond according to StewMac, the maker of your friend'a kit, for the thought process of original poster (if he's still here).

OregonJim
01-01-2015, 03:58 PM
It happens more often that you'd think. I've had to cut my fingers away from my ukes quite a few times. I literally put my blood, sweat and sometimes tears into my work.

That's what CA Release Agent is for. I never work with CA glue without a bottle of release agent nearby. I use CA as a high-gloss, ultra-durable finish on wood-turned projects. I would never use it to assemble an acoustic instrument of any kind, especially for the top, bridge, or neck. Those joints need to be reversible for repairs...

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
01-01-2015, 08:12 PM
That's what CA Release Agent is for. I never work with CA glue without a bottle of release agent nearby. I use CA as a high-gloss, ultra-durable finish on wood-turned projects. I would never use it to assemble an acoustic instrument of any kind, especially for the top, bridge, or neck. Those joints need to be reversible for repairs...

I do have a couple of bottle of the stuff around but I'd rather not contaminate my joint with the release agent. Leaving a little blood behind just shows the level of my commitment I have to my customers. :). Using latex glove fingertips eliminates the problem all together.
As far as your other comment goes, please see my post #25 above.