Dim chord construction

Kennington

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Hi all,

So far I've been following the well trodden beginner path of learning chords as they crop up in song sheets. I'm now trying to move on to understand what these different chord names actually mean.

As an exercise I've been working through the chord types (so far: Major, minor, 6, 7, Maj7, sus4, aug), finding out how each type is constructed and matching that with the chord fingerings I've learned so far.

I'm a bit puzzled by dim chords. I've seen them defined as a triad of minor 3rds. e.g. Cdim = C, Eb, Gb. However the movable fingering I see in my chord charts has an extra A added which is another minor 3rd on top of the Gb.

Where does this extra note come from?
 
That's because the fingering that everyone refers to as diminished is actually a diminished 7th. They can be used interchangeably, in practice.
 
As Wicked said, usually people just write DIM but it is DIM7.

Also, DIM chords are based on DIMINISH scale

Major diatonic scale (C) = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C so the spacing is 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1

Minor scale (C) = C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb , C spacing is 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2

Now diminish scale (C) = C D Eb F Gb Ab, A, B, C spacing is 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1

sooooo, DIM7 chord takes notes from the diminsih scale's 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th notes, ie, C, Eb, Gb, A. Note all the intervals are 3 half-steps.

Also, Ebdim7 chord is Eb Gb A C which is identical as Cdim7. So are Gbdim7 and Adim7

------------------------

There is also AUGument chord like Caug = C E G# which is based on augument scale (aka, whole note scale)

Augument scale (C) = C D E F# G# A# C spacing is 2 2 2 2 2 2

Notice Aug7 does not exist - the 7th note of augument scale is back to C.

Theory is fun
Chief
 
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That's because the fingering that everyone refers to as diminished is actually a diminished 7th. They can be used interchangeably, in practice.

Ah. So a dim chord is written down but people finger a dim7 because it's convenient and sounds pretty similar? Or maybe people mean dim7 but write dim 'for short'. Maybe both happen, depending on the context.
 
As Wicked said, usually people just write DIM but it is DIM7.

Also, DIM chords are based on DIMINISH scale

Major diatonic scale (C) = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C so the spacing is 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1

Minor scale (C) = C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb , C spacing is 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1, 2

Now diminish scale (C) = C D Eb F Gb Ab, A, B, C spacing is 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1

sooooo, DIM7 chord takes notes from the diminsih scale's 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th notes, ie, C, Eb, Gb, A. Note all the intervals are 3 half-steps.

Also, Ebdim7 chord is Eb Gb A C which is identical as Cdim7. So are Gbdim7 and Adim7

------------------------

There is also AUGument chord like Caug = C E G# which is based on augument scale (aka, whole note scale)

Augument scale (C) = C D E F# G# A# C spacing is 2 2 2 2 2 2

Notice Aug7 does not exist - the 7th note of augument scale is back to C.

Theory is fun
Chief

Interesting.. I haven't come across diminished (or augmented) _scales_ so far. The chord names Xdim and Xdim7 make sense if viewed in that context.
 
Preemptive alert: If you dislike theoretical explanations, skip this post, and keep your whinging and wisecracks to yourself. If you'd like to learn some theory quickly, try this site: http://www.musictheory.net/lessons
For some more help on deciphering chord names, see my previous post in another thread:
http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?101568-G-g5-g7-g11#post1594382

Figuring out chords from their names can be a bit tricky. For instance, by default a 7 normally means a dominant (i.e. minor) 7th interval. But in "dim7", the 7th is a diminished 7th, i.e. a minor 7th which is lowered another half-step, which in the equal-tempered intonation system is equivalent to a major 6th interval. The 7th here is built a minor 3rd above an already diminished interval, the diminished 5th.

If, instead, you want a diminished triad with a dominant/minor 7th, you have what is called a "half-diminished" chord, spelled either Xm7b5 or Xø. It's called half-diminished because, measured from the root, the dim7 chord has, in addition to a minor 3rd, two diminished intervals: the diminished 5th and the diminished 7th, whereas the Xø chord only has one. The 7 in Xm7b5 has its usual meaning (dominant 7th) because this spelling considers the base triad to be a minor triad rather than a diminished one: first you form the minor 7th chord (Xm7), then you diminish the 5th. And it normally functions as an altered dominant chord.

The diminished triad may also be spelled X° or Xo, though as with "dim" it's more common for this notation to mean the diminished 7th chord (and you'll also see Xo7, the more proper spelling). To spell the diminished triad unambiguously, most people write Xmb5: a minor triad with the 5th diminished.

On the subject of notation, here's another anomaly: In standard notation, you'd write the chord with a diminished 7th, not a 6th, unless that would force you to use a triple-flat (never written). For example, here's the proper notes to write for the following chords:
C#dim7 = C# E G Bb (not A#)
Cdim7 = C Eb Gb Bbb (not A)
but
Cbdim7 = Cb Ebb Gbb Ab (not Bbbb)
That said, guitarists and ukists like to keep things simple, so you'll often see the simpler enharmonic equivalents (A instead of Bbb, and Bdim7 instead of Cbdim7).

The dim7 chord is quite useful because it creates harmonic disorientation and ambiguity: unlike dominant 7ths and minor 7ths, it can't be built naturally from diatonic scale notes. I think of it as a "roudabout" chord: you can get to it from almost any chord, and go to almost any other chord. Any note you choose is either in the chord or a half-step away (supporting voice leading).

Very frequently, though, Xdim7 really functions as a rootless Xb7b9. In other words, in a standard resolve-by-fifths progression like Dm7 - G7 - C, one might play play a dressier Dm7 - G#dim7 - C, but really the 2nd chord would be G7b9 (and if a savvy bassist were playing along, he might play a G under your G#dim7). The second chord might also be notated as Ddim7 (keeping the same root as the preceding chord), Bdim7 (viewed as leading to C) or even Fdim7 (no rationale except that it plays the same notes), but none of these four dim7 spellings truly reflects what's happening harmonically. To see what I mean, try these three progressions:
Dm7 (5555) - G7 (4535) - C (5433)
Dm7 (5555) - G7b9 (0545) - C (5433)
Dm7 (5555) - G#dim7 (4545) - C (5433)
Then switch back and forth between the G7b9 and the G#dim7 (lifting and planting just your index finger). You're essentially playing the full five-note version of G7b9, 3rd-less the first time, rootless the second. (This sounds clearest on a linearly-tuned uke.)

I'm not saying the dim7 spellings are wrong, if the notator specifically wants the dim7 sound; it's sort of a choice between the mechanics and the meaning, the expression and the intent. Few uke players would understand, if they saw X7b9, that they could well use X#dim7 instead. But now you do, and how cool is that?: one easy shape for two entire sets of chords, and positioning is a piece of cake (for dim7, any note can be the root; for 7b9, any fret before can be the root).

No whinges or wisecracks from me, I promise. I do find music theory terminology confusing sometimes but I know that is my problem. I'm enjoying the process of trying to distil an understanding from the wealth of material out there.

These are very useful posts ubulele.. thank you.
 
From a playing perspective, the nice thing about the dim (correctly dim7) chord is that there are only three of them on a uke.

0101 contains G C# E and A#. If you play it three frets higher it contains the same notes (3232), and also at 6, 9, 12 etc frets higher. It can stand for any of those notes (Gdim, Edim).

1212 contains G# D F and B

2323 contains A Eb F# and C

Plus it's exactly the same shape (except 0101) so you can slide up and down at will.
 
View "dim" for "dim7" as part of guitar chord naming efficiency (like X6 for Xadd6 or X9 for X7add9). You can always write "dim7" or "o7" yourself

I've always equated it to using contractions in English, i.e. saying can't instead of cannot. It's just a common quirk of the language.
 
From a playing perspective, the nice thing about the dim (correctly dim7) chord is that there are only three of them on a uke.

Actually on *any* instrument. There are only three distinct chord constructions theoretically.

Cheers
Chief
 
Hello

For theory buffs and overly curious. Here is a fun experiment.

If you hold dominant 7th chord and then riase the root note by one half-step, what do you get?

For example, D7 (2 2 2 3) >>> (2 3 2 3) which is D#dim7

G7 (0 2 1 2) >>> (1212) G#dim7

You got the idea and of course, you can move it up the neck

C7 (3 5 4 5) >>> (4 5 4 5) C#dim7

Your dominant7th chord must have all four notes. Otherwise, you get an alternate form

A7 (2 1 3 0) >>> (3 1 3 0) an alternate form of A#dim7

----------------------------

When you have a chord change from G7 to D7, you can do

0 2 1 2 >>> 1 2 1 2 >>> 2 2 2 3

The note on G string moves 0 >>> 1 >>> 2 so it is a "strong" movement.

Cheers
Chief
 
(This is drift but its not. - If you get it; your ear will tell you when to use dim7 chords. - You still have to learn the dim chord shapes).

I play by ear. I am intensely interested in music theory. Because it is so complex; there must, be a reason for it. All the letters, and numbers are so much Greek to me.

Scale convention: I, II, III, IV, V, VI,VII.

Play by ear. (pbe) convention. Progressions:
Rock n roll I,IV,V or (1,4,5).
Ragtime I,VI,II,V (1,6,2,5)

(I prefer Roman Numerals so you don't think progressions are some strange ukulele chord voicing).


Scale meter conventions, or strum patterns or poetic feet -(iambs).
Major diatonic scale (C) = C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C so the spacing is
(2 2 1) 2 (2 2 1) - Ukulele Strum:
DDU D DDU


Minor scale (C) = C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb , C spacing is
(2 1 2) 2 (2 1 2) - Ukulele Strum:
DUD D DUD


Now diminish scale (C) = C D Eb F Gb Ab, A, B, C spacing is
(2 1 2) 1 (2 1 2) 1 - Ukulele Strum:
DUD U DUD U
[SUB]ubulele edit this to add the Greek modal scale names to the scales you mentioned. thanks![/SUB]

Different Scales use different spacings! Different Strums use different spacings!
Its the rhythm. Iambic Pentameter is a rhythm. DU DU DU DU DD

The Rain in Spain Falls Mainly in the Plain -
---DU ----- DU ----------DU ----DU---- DD
I Hope you've Got It!
-DD------- D----- DU

Eureka!
 
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