Is a compensated saddle necessary to get perfect intonation?

spookelele

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Up in talk today, in the saddle, and the kala elite threads, people are implying that without a compensated saddle, you can't get good intonation.

Is that strictly true? I didn't think it was, but then I've compensated all my saddles, mostly figuring it was because things are hard to get perfect, and none of my ukes are close to breaking the $1k price tag.

Is compensation strictly necessary, or is it wringing that last tiny bit of precision out of something that is slightly imperfect?

I mean.. all things considered, doesn't pressing the string between the frets cause more inaccuracy than a little bit of the string on the ends not vibrating (assuming that the fret distances are all correct)
 
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"Is a compensated saddle necessary to get perfect intonation? "

Mostly, yes. Pressing the strings is a different issue.
 
Are you talking about compensated saddle, (slanted) or compensating the entire scale?

I was talking about a filed saddle, vs a straight one.
Not sure about the right name, sorry.

Someone implied that the new $$$$$$$ kala must be lacking in intonation, because it does not have a compensated saddle.
I wasn't sure if that was strictly true.

I thought compensation is something you did to a particular instrument for a particular kind of string, instead of like.. you have this one filed saddle, and it's good for everything. Like.. is an aquila red low g going to need the same filing as say, a flouro carbon high G, or a wound G. The same if like.. you use a wound C. I wouldn't think so, because like.. a wound is pretty consistently flexible because it's many fibers, where as like, alot of the plastic strings get stiff after they've stopped stretching, which makes the effective node length shorter because of the ends not moving as much. That thinking on my part could be wrong.. as I don't actually measure... I just kinda file until the tuner is happy, and assume it's more precise than my ear because I don't have perfect pitch.
 
Is there any leeway whatsoever to if it can go 'out' at all going up the neck.

My uke (sometimes) will go 2-3 cents out when up 12 frets or higher, and it doesn't have a compensated saddle. On down the neck, no problem at all.
 
I was talking about a filed saddle, vs a straight one.
Not sure about the right name, sorry.

Someone implied that the new $$$$$$$ kala must be lacking in intonation, because it does not have a compensated saddle.
I wasn't sure if that was strictly true.

Spookelele - I was the one who originally opened this can of worms on the other thread. The question is not whether it somehow had bad intonation (relative to other ukes with uncompensated saddles. I am sure it doesn't. Its not even clear if they have one, or not since they don't mention it), but rather if, or how, they have achieved what their marketing literature calls the "best intonation on the planet" without a compensated saddle, if it lacks one. I wish I could afford a $1200-$3000 uke, and I love the company because they made my first ukulele, but details of how they are achieving this are unknown. In the interview they did at NAMM they said they did some "micro tuning," but little more.
 
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Regardless of how or why the conversation got started I hope this rather interesting discussion continues. :)
 
Pressing the string is the reason to compensate the scale or the saddle. The act of pressing (stretching) of the string results in a very slight pitch change usually compensated by moving the saddle back, effectively increasing the speaking length of the string. An uncompensated string length tends to play slighly sharp the further one progresses up the fretboard.
Unfortunately different string types (and different string gauges) usually require different amounts of compensation. On a Nylon string Guitar the saddle is normally set back by around 2 mm's with little or no differentiation between the treble and bass strings. On a steel string Guitar the saddle is slanted and offers much more compensation on the bass strings compared to the thin treble strings.
It's all a compromise though. We play on a fully chromatic instrument capable of playing in any key, making use of equal temperament. Equal temperament is a fudge in itself. So we aren't exactly off to a good start even before we install the frets or pluck a single note.
The act of moving the saddle back from it's theoretical position is a relatively easy method of getting our instruments to play 'more in tune' in all the keys. For the vast majority of people it is good enough. There are other methods, such as 'Nut compensation' and some makers claim that it results in instruments that play 'more in tune'. Nothing is perfect though. Change strings from Nylgut to Nylon or change to a different gauge and your almost perfectly compensated instrument will be back to square one.
 
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So that is why there is often a angle lower on the left and higher on the right on a guitar saddle?

On a ukulele, the compensation is related to the math in spacing the frets ? (the thing that is sometimes called the rule of 18 even though it is really 1787... or something -I don't remember where the decimal goes or if those are the right numbers)

Or am I getting it wrong ?
 
Just a thought---

Wouldn't you have to change the saddle when going from a high 'g' to a low 'g' string, if compensated?
 
Just a thought---

Wouldn't you have to change the saddle when going from a high 'g' to a low 'g' string, if compensated?

Theoretically yes, but saddles are relatively easy to change. If they are sufficiently thick (my understanding is that some makes of high quality instruments use 1/8" thick saddles for example), they are also relatively easy to compensate. They are made thick so that they can be filed with the string's high point (crown) on the saddle more towards the front tor back. It just takes a bit of a luthier's time. People who can afford this level of instrument can also afford the modest labor charge to compensate a saddle, and the level of perfection we were discussing when it came up was the best intonation on the planet.

On my electric guitar this adjustment is accomplished with screws on the bridge that can move the strings landing point up or back. Lanikai made a low-end uke, called the TunaUke which had saddle points you could move up or back, but they didn't seem to catch on like wildfire. The improvement may have been too small to put up with any other side-effects they created. On my acoustic guitar, the maker simply set the saddle at an angle as a compromise between better intonation and practicality and cost.
 
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So that is why there is often a angle lower on the left and higher on the right on a guitar saddle?
(re compensating is because we press between frets)

Not exactly. Because open strings don't use frets. Frets are the same height whether its the treble or bass side.

A note is determined by the tension, and length of the string segment.
When you pluck/strum, your string goes from | to () in the primary node, and also the harmonic nodes.
The math for lengths is based on that, but the math assumes the string can pivot freely to form sine waves.

But an actual string doesn't work that way. If you hold a string straight out, it doesn't just flop down because it has a stiffness.
That stiffness of the string makes the effective node length shorter because part of the string isn't swinging back and forth freely.
The stiffer the string, the shorter the effective node length, because the stiffness resists going into the sine wave shape especially on the the ends, but also on the harmonics.

So, if you think about a guitar, esp a steel string. The fatter the string, the stiffer it is.
So, on the bass end, the slanted saddle makes the effective length longer because it's the stiffest strings, while the treble needs less because it's not as stiff. You'll usually see a second slant on the 2 high strings, because it changes from wound to unwound on the 2 high strings.

Nylon/flouro carbon is not nearly as stiff as steel, but it still has a stiffness.

There's a thickness issue too, because the math works from the center of the diameter of the string, but the string moves from the side of the string that's touching the nut and the saddle, so there's another kind of compensation for that, where the nut and saddle or the slots cut are not parallel with the body slanting down toward the treble side because those strings are thinner.

That's kinda why you compensate for the strings you're using, and not a "universal" compensation, but then that's microtuning. And in the real world of playing.. you introduce other issues, that I believe exceed the tolerance you compensate for. Not to say, starting more accurate isn't better, but it's never perfect in every place because it can't really be.

Like.. frets. We press the string between frets to lock the node length. But, the fret has a height. When we push the string into the valley between the frets, we change the effective tension, which throws the math off. If you hold a chord, and then reach for an additional note with your pinky, the notes held in the chord flat because you're reaching toward the saddle reducing tension on those notes, but the note you hit with your pinky sharps because your pinky pulls the string toward the other fingers holding the chord. We consciously know this happens because we make vibrato exactly in this way by wiggling the fingers holding down the string. But it happens when we play because our fingers don't work strictly up and down, because our knuckles are fixed position, and our fingers spread, so tendons naturally pull fingers spread back together.
 
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Chase it all you like. Your intonation will never be perfect. Not never. The intonation of your instrument can be improved if you compensate the saddle effectively. But, the improvement may well be primarily realized in the laboratory setting.

With a high-quality instrument, intonation can often be improved a bit (the best ukuleles have pretty good intonation anyway). If you compensate a saddle on a lower-quality instrument you're probably wasting your time. If you buy a ukulele with bad intonation, the amount of adjustment you can make will be insufficient to make it very good.

Fret spacing and saddle placement (and height) are the most important factors in intonation. Compensation is used to temper the effect of differing diameters (and other properties) of the individual strings and for imperfections in the instrument. Even the very best design and execution will not give you perfect intonation. Partly because there is no such thing.

Someone earlier said compensation is done to adjust for stretch when playing. Probably a bad idea to use it for this. If stretch is an issue, it must be addressed in the design and build phases. This is what fret spacing and the saddle's position and height are all about.

Being a life-long piano tuner and rebuilder, I agonized over intonation when I first began playing ukulele. Now, I just practice and play.
 
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Just for conversation, I'll add that a fretless intrument (which Kimo Hussey and I briefly discussed) won't need a compensated saddle v a fretted one. Mostly.

Set fret instruments are a series of compromises when it comes to intonation. Not mention again another variable in the equation - pressing strings, string height, etc.

Once I added in a 7 degree angle to the saddle (it doesn't sit at 90, its at 83), I can set intonation, then I can set action without affecting intonation as much as if the saddle were 90 degrees. Still, there is no perfect.
 
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Chase it all you like. Your intonation will never be perfect. Not never. The intonation of your instrument can be improved if you compensate the saddle effectively. But,, the improvement may well be primarily realized in the laboratory setting.

With a high-quality instrument, intonation can often be improved a bit (the best ukuleles have pretty good intonation anyway). If you compensate a saddle on a lower-quality instrument you're probably wasting your time. If you buy a ukulele with bad intonation, the amount of adjustment you can make will be insufficient to make it very good.

Fret spacing and saddle placement (and height) are the most important factors in intonation. Compensation is used to temper the effect of differing diameters (and other properties) of the individual strings and for imperfections in the instrument. Even the very best design and execution will not give you perfect intonation. Partly because there is no such thing.

Someone earlier said compensation is done to adjust for stretch when playing. Probably a bad idea to use it for this. If stretch is an issue, it must be addressed in the design and build phases. This is what fret spacing and the saddle's position and height are all about.

Being a piano life-long tuner and rebuilder, I agonized over intonation when I first began playing ukulele. Now, I just practice and play.

Yes! This should be a sticky on Uke Talk.
 
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