Am I needlessly biased against solid top laminate back/sides ukuleles?

Photojosh

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Apologies for touching on the old solid-vs-laminate debate. But we've got to talk about something around here, right?

I have a Koaloha concert that I love. It is, and has been for a while, my primary wood bodied ukulele. But I've been thinking of getting something else in a concert size at some point that would compliment it with a different voice. And maybe something with a less traditional look as well. Spruce or cedar with a little 'showy' style perhaps. This isn't a super serious quest, but it's something I've been bouncing around in my head. I've seen a couple really pretty concerts out there. For example, the solid cedar top Kala KA-ACP-CTG has a neat look. And a local store has a pretty (and nice sounding) spruce top Ohana CK 50WG that I think they would like to give me a deal on.

But for whatever reason, I find myself shying away from those ukes because of their laminate back and sides. I find myself looking for one of those pretty all solid spruce/lacewood Kala KA-ASLAC or thinking that I should back off on the 'showy' and find something all-solid and traditional looking. I really don't like ukuleles that have overly choked or quiet voices and the back of my head I keep thinking of all the quiet laminates I have heard in the past (to be fair, mostly cheaper models).

Now, is this because I've got a really nice solid wood uke as my benchmark, or am I needlessly limiting myself out of some nice ukes because of some mistaken belief?

Another example, I'm looking to try a Baritone out. I'm unsure if I'll actually like the size/sound so I don't want to spend a ton. But instead of just picking up one of the reasonably priced solid top laminate back/sides baritones from Kala or Ohana, I start talking myself into spending $100-200 more for a solid uke....
 
Im no expert but if it was any other field I would tell you that the marketing passed along from salesmen has brainwashed you and you should go with whichever ukulele you personally like the sound of.

The paper mache guitar debate stopped me from caring what materials the back and sides are made from.
 
Agreed- buy what you enjoy. In thinking about the physics of guitars/ukes, laminate back & sides will not detrimentally impact you, I think. Of course, build quality is always #1. You might lose some harmonics that solid back & sides provide, but I doubt many would truly notice; this minutiae is far more important for professionals than most of us enthusiasts.

Buy what sounds good.
 
Im no expert but if it was any other field I would tell you that the marketing passed along from salesmen has brainwashed you and you should go with whichever ukulele you personally like the sound of.

Agreed- buy what you enjoy. (...) Buy what sounds good.


That is fair. However, for the most part, like many of us, I don't have the opportunity to try most of the ukuleles that I buy (or consider buying). So just saying "buy what sounds nice" can be something of an oversimplification. A lot of times the best we can do for buying advice, no matter if we're talking ukuleles or kitchen knives is what wisdom can be gleaned from "traditional" truths and experiences shared by others. I think it's pretty understandable that we all look to "solid" wood as the best. But the question is, well my question anyway, is am I letting "great" be the enemy of "quite good"?

The paper mache guitar debate stopped me from caring what materials the back and sides are made from.

Now that is MORE than fair.
 
My best sounding and playing uke is my Kala KAATP-CTG-CE (recommended by Mim). It's the tenor cutaway version of the Kala you mentioned. I don't have any qualms choosing a laminate body with solid top.
 
That is fair. However, for the most part, like many of us, I don't have the opportunity to try most of the ukuleles that I buy (or consider buying). So just saying "buy what sounds nice" can be something of an oversimplification. A lot of times the best we can do for buying advice, no matter if we're talking ukuleles or kitchen knives is what wisdom can be gleaned from "traditional" truths and experiences shared by others. I think it's pretty understandable that we all look to "solid" wood as the best. But the question is, well my question anyway, is am I letting "great" be the enemy of "quite good"?

I hear you I am in the same boat I shop in an area with and urban area of over 4 million people and I can't lay my hands on anything other than a Kala ukulele for sale. I feel guilty going to the ukulele club most often times just to cop a feel off of somebody else's ukulele. :( sad isn't it.

I wish they had traveling ukulele salesmen. (there is an idea for anyone who reads this I will gladly accept a discount for this idea)
 
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I think this matter as the same way as a car.. It may be a bit funny, and I don't know if this is right :eek: Feel free to correct me.

First of all, this is about "affordable price range products", because you mentioned some mass production brands.

I know if I upgrade the suspension system & better tires, (not talk about comfortability) it could run few seconds faster, because of they give better grip. However, on daily casual driving, none of my passengers (or myself) would feel any significant different on speed, because the main power source - engine with the transmission hasn't change, also because me and my passengers are not professional car racers.

On the other side, my driving technique could make more difference instantly (i.e. changing gears quicker & smoother).

Same with ukulele, I know the better back & side wood give better effects to the sound. However, I am not sure the difference is significant enough to hear.

Also, my playing technique could make more difference instantly..

So it base on how you feel and hear, and buying with no regrets.

I guess for the higher price range cars/ukuleles (custom model, better built ones, etc..), the difference may become larger and we will notice.
 
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I'm a big fan of "value" also. That Kala cedar topped laminated rosewood or laminated acacia bodied uke can be had from several sellers for somewhere between $225 and $250. A beautiful sounding and looking uke for that kind of money. Strings may be even more important on these than on all solid ukes.
 
I'm a big fan of "value" also. That Kala cedar topped laminated rosewood or laminated acacia bodied uke can be had from several sellers for somewhere between $225 and $250. A beautiful sounding and looking uke for that kind of money. Strings may be even more important on these than on all solid ukes.

Tuning can also be a factor. I have a solid acacia top, laminate b & s Kala soprano. Changing the strings to fluorocarbon certainly helped the tone but I then tuned it up to ADF#B and it really came to life. I have an all solid Bruko soprano tuned ADF#B and although it sounds better to me than in GCEA, the difference isn't as great.
 
Maybe a Ukemobile, a subscription service where you borrow a uke for a month or two—feed UAS without a long-term commitment. It could also stock string sets, tab books, straps, humidifiers, caps, T-shirts, "Kamaka on Board" decals, etc. and provide a setup service, broker sales and trades, give lessons, whatever.

I'm on board with this, or the traveling salesman. Or what about a Netflix for ukes? They ship it to you, you play it for a month, then you put it in the original box and ship it back. I'd love some kind of business model where I could try a bunch of different ukes.
 
Here's a thought for you: the Selmer 'Django' guitars all had solid tops on laminated sides and backs. Every single one of them. Not because that was cheaper, but because it made them louder.
 
...I find myself shying away from those ukes because of their laminate back and sides.....

It's all about the conversion of energy into acoustic sound.

Backs and sides of a hollow-bodied instrument act mostly to reflect the sound waves back, both to the top and through the sound hole. The top does the resonating. Very little sound escapes from the back and sides compared to the top. (that's why some makers add a sound hole on the top... for the musician to hear him/herself better).

Laminates do not resonate as well as solid wood, so they may, in fact, be better materials for backs and sides because instead of absorbing the energy (as a top tonewood should), they bounce it back. However, the best side and back woods - laminates or solid - are a dense wood that encourages reflection rather than absorption. Rosewood is popular for this, but there are others.

The laminate should have the dense wood as the top ply inside as well as outside, by the way, for this to be most effective.

The is why Ovation and Fluke make a plastic-backed ukulele with a solid wood top. The theory is that these materials reflect the energy better, so provide more volume and harmonic range.

Conclusion: laminate backs and sides may offer some advantages over solid wood, if well made.
 
Maybe a Ukemobile, a subscription service where you borrow a uke for a month or two—feed UAS without a long-term commitment. It could also stock string sets, tab books, straps, humidifiers, caps, T-shirts, "Kamaka on Board" decals, etc. and provide a setup service, broker sales and trades, give lessons, whatever.
Now you are talking ! I like the way you think :)

I was orignally thinking that either builders or music stores could sponsor workshops in various cities and send a rep with a selection, one of several types of ukuleles. People people pay for the workshop, and it could increase sales to the dealer via their website. The seller creates "goodwill" with qualified buyers. But your idea is good :)

The musician/salesrep could also give a concert that evening while he is town to make a little bit more, because the workshop cost would be collected by and paid for by the seller of the ukes.

(Not a bad idea until you realize there would be different sales tax in almost every state, some states have "out of state entertainers taxes")
 
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Same with ukulele, I know the better back & side wood give better effects to the sound. However, I am not sure the difference is significant enough to hear.

If it is not enough to hear is there a difference in sound ?

It reminds me of the question if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it does it make a noise ?

Today we can measure sound electronically but at some place doesn't it just become academic?

I think of it like muting strings, if the ukulele is against your body why doesn't that dampen the sound like when your fingers are against (mute) the strings ?

I don' t know.:shaka:

It's all about the conversion of energy into acoustic sound.

Backs and sides of a hollow-bodied instrument act mostly to reflect the sound waves back, both to the top and through the sound hole. The top does the resonating. Very little sound escapes from the back and sides compared to the top. (that's why some makers add a sound hole on the top... for the musician to hear him/herself better).

Laminates do not resonate as well as solid wood, so they may, in fact, be better materials for backs and sides because instead of absorbing the energy (as a top tonewood should), they bounce it back. However, the best side and back woods - laminates or solid - are a dense wood that encourages reflection rather than absorption. Rosewood is popular for this, but there are others.

The laminate should have the dense wood as the top ply inside as well as outside, by the way, for this to be most effective.

The is why Ovation and Fluke make a plastic-backed ukulele with a solid wood top. The theory is that these materials reflect the energy better, so provide more volume and harmonic range.

Conclusion: laminate backs and sides may offer some advantages over solid wood, if well made.

Hmm... what does this say for back and sides being the same tone-wood as the top ? If a uke is all koa does that mean it would be better to have two different types of wood one for the top and the other for the back and sides ?
 
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I will play devils advocate for a minute. First off because your main player is a Koaloha concert most lower priced ukes will not measure up sound wise to this supreme instrument so there is strike one. If we agree that the back is a reflector then the best reflection would come from a hard high quality piece of wood. Laminate is not that material. It is two very thin outer layers of veneer glued to an unknown species of wood in the center. By it's very nature laminate will absorb more sound compared to something like solid rosewood. The quality of spruce or cedar top used in a $200 instrument compared to a $900 will not be the same. Consistency of sound from one instrument to the next of the same model can vary, sometime greatly.

The above is all just food for thought, you said you wanted a discussion. At the end of the day there are a number of good sounding instruments with a solid top and laminate back and sides, but not a lot of great ones as you noted. It is like cooking a dish and throwing unknow quantities and qualities of ingredients into the mix. Sometimes they come out good other times......yucky.

If going down this route then it is best to play before you buy, like the Ohana you mentioned. If it sounds good to you then at the end of the day that is the most important thing. Heck I have bought and then sold some expensive all solid wood custom ukes but I still have an all laminate Gretsch tenor that I play on a regular basis and will never sell. The Koalohas, Pono, Collings etc in my herd are always jealous of the time I spend with Gretsch.:eek:
 
I also have two wonderful solid top, laminate back and side ukes, one I bought from Mim. She notes that all-solid ukes are more sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity than one with some laminate. Since you're in Washington, a uke with laminate back and sides may need less coddling where you live.
 
I know you are playing devils advocate but I am not sure how this information was obtained (playing skeptics advocate) for example do we know that a hard wood back needs to be hard wood for its entire thickness? If hardwood is actually better at reflecting sound.

And the cost of a solid wood top in a $200 and $900 instrument isn't going to be more than a few dollars difference when buying the raw material is it ? (talking about the amount used) If koa is for example $100(ex) a board foot how many boardd feet does it take to make a ukulele ?

I will play devils advocate for a minute. First off because your main player is a Koaloha concert most lower priced ukes will not measure up sound wise to this supreme instrument so there is strike one. If we agree that the back is a reflector then the best reflection would come from a hard high quality piece of wood. Laminate is not that material. It is two very thin outer layers of veneer glued to an unknown species of wood in the center. By it's very nature laminate will absorb more sound compared to something like solid rosewood. The quality of spruce or cedar top used in a $200 instrument compared to a $900 will not be the same. Consistency of sound from one instrument to the next of the same model can vary, sometime greatly.

The above is all just food for thought, you said you wanted a discussion. At the end of the day there are a number of good sounding instruments with a solid top and laminate back and sides, but not a lot of great ones as you noted. It is like cooking a dish and throwing unknow quantities and qualities of ingredients into the mix. Sometimes they come out good other times......yucky.
 
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I know you are playing devils advocate but I am not sure how this information was obtained (playing skeptics advocate) for example do we know that a hard wood back needs to be hard wood for its entire thickness? If hardwood is actually better at reflecting sound.

And the cost of a solid wood top in a $200 and $900 instrument isn't going to be more than a few dollars difference when buying the raw material is it ? (talking about the amount used) If koa is for example $100(ex) a board foot how many boardd feet does it take to make a ukulele ?

Hey Brian1, all good questions. I come from a 30 year woodworking background, the last 12 years were as a cabinet maker. I have never built an instrument but I know a lot about solid woods and laminates as I worked with both of them a lot. Regarding top quality in a $200 vs $900 the manufacture will use the best quality he has on his highest level of product, if he cares about his reputation. When making a $900 table I used our highest quality wood compared to the lower grade wood for a $200 one.

I have the great privelege of living close to Luis of LfdM guitars and ukuleles, a very highly regarded builder here on UU. I have been to his shop a few times and he has opened my eyes with demonstrates of tap toning different woods. He is of the strong believe that the type of wood used on the back makes a difference. When he holds a piece of mahogany and taps it, then koa, then rosewood, then ebony you sure can here a difference. He has been building flamingo, classical and jazz guitars for 50 years and ukuleles for about 5 years now. I have seen it and heard it and he has a wealth of experience, no guessing, therorizing or pontificating. His ukuleles can go for $3200 or more so it is all relative that his is so picky about the smallest detail. So yes without a doubt high quality solid wood reflects sound better than laminate. As a pure reflector solid ebony is a more effective reflector than mahogany.

Again this is all just slipping hairs and I have played a $165.00 Islander concert with solid spruce top and laminate splatted maple back and sides that was wonderful, truely wonderful. This was at Cosmos music and I had just finished playing some Kamakas and Kanile'a that were all North of $1200. I was so impressed with the $165.00 laminated back Islander that I am still kicking myself for not buying it. Went back a week later and it was sold, someone else had a good ear as well.
 
I have both a laminated B&S cedar top Kala uke, and the solid lacewood/spruce Kala. I like them both. They both sound very nice (though different because of the tops) and I consider them keepers. I leave the laminated one out on a stand as my handy go-to uke.

I'm sure you'd be happy with either one that you are considering, and even happier with both. ;)
 
I read these threads about This Uke vs That Uke and Composite vs Solid and this Wood vs that Wood , quite often ....and what always strikes me is that when the obvious solution is made or offered i.e. go out and try them ...to which I nod :shaka:...often the response is ...That is easier said than done ....I am really curious :confused: , is there such a dearth of good music shops in the USA ? I get this minds eye picture of vast tracts of tumbleweed strewn emptiness between Ukulele Shops....sorry ..stores....

I know that the US is mahoosively ginormous....at least it was in 1986 when I went...and that vast road trips (by UK standards) were not anything to be afeared of ...gas was cheap and cars still muscly back then ....so please enlighten me as to why there are so few ...apparently....shops selling ukeleles........;)
 
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