amplifying ukes (do we need a DI Box?)

Lori

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I know that there has been a lot of really great help here on how to amplify ukuleles for performances. Our group has been researching the subject, and are trying to get all the pieces figured out. We need to cover 8-10 instruments and 2 vocals. Each uke player is going to figure out how they will be amplified. I have a MiSi on a custom electric semi-hollow body uke. Do I need a DI box going between me and the mixer? If so, any recommendations on DI boxes? Would every uke need a DI box, or just the ones that are not using XLR mic inputs? Any suggestions for the rest of the kit? We would like a couple of PA speakers and at least one or two monitors.

–Lori
 
These are all great questions because I just bought my first amp and a LR Baggs Venu DI. I will very interested in the answers from the experts. Thanks for asking the question Lori
 
Although this thread: http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com...ulele-amplification&highlight=battery+powered is about battery powered amplification, it does have a lot of usable information. Now on the matter of the DI Box, your MiSi is if I'm not mistaking an active pickup, that would mean it would have enough output on its own. So therefore in my opinion it should not need a DI. Having said that I use an Epiphone Les Paul when I play live, and I've only used that with a DI if the sound guy did not like me to just plug it in. The Epiphone holds its own very well in my opinion, without a DI. And that pickup is passive (meaning not needing a battery).
 
Wow, 10 inputs...that's not a small mixer. I would think it's better to get 4 instrument mics and get a couple of mics for singing and talking.

Just gotta practice placement of the mics. I would that is easier than checking the input of each instrument. Most places will have mics for voices so you might not even need those. Just a thought.
 
I've been doing audio installations (and their design), working as a mobile DJ and musical performances for over 30 yrs (first as a hobby, and then as a second income), and maybe my experience can be of some use to you here.

The main reason to use a DI box, at least a PASSIVE DI box, is to be able to run a balanced signal. Having a balanced signal helps to cancel or eliminate hum. There is an influx of preamps that also serve as a DI box, but a preamp is NOT required in a DI Box.

I have several of the 'Pyle' brand DI box, which I bought from B&H Photo in NYC for $10 (& free shipping) that do the job perfectly. You do not need to spend lots of money. The same exact unit is rebadged as a Behringer and sold for $29 and rebadged and sold as Nady for $33. If you are going to spend ~$30, get the Behringer ADI-21, which is a preamp, eq, and DI box all in one and MANY folks here on UU will swear by this unit for those on a lower budget.


[WARNING WILL ROBINSON! - tech jargon ahead - Sorry :)]

The point of a 'balanced' signal and the XLR cables are two-fold:

1) By converting from an 1/4" mono 'guitar cable' which has only a single signal wire and a braided shield acting as a ground (typically referred to as UN-balanced signal) or TS as in tip-shield, to an XLR cable, which has TWO signal wires and a braided shield acting as a ground, the way it's wired at the mixer or PA is that the two signal wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, and the end result is that if there is a hum, typically from some kind of interference, it get eliminated or reduced due to what is called PHASE CANCELLATION, and where there was a hum (lets say of 60hz), there is now a 'NULL', and thus less or zero noise in the line. This BALANCED cable via the DI box also allows for much LONGER cable runs than and unbalanced cable. You can also get BALANCED cables that are in 1/4" connectors as in TRS - meaning tip-ring-shield, but they are less common in true pro audio setups.

2) A DI-box that has a transformer inside it can do IMPEDANCE matching. This is important if the PA mixer is expecting a microphone signal (like a Shure SM58 or similar) which is typically around 600 ohms, and you want to feed it an instrument signal like a guitar/bass/ukulele/etc. Instrument outputs have a huge variance in their impedance but are typically near 1 mega-ohm (1 million ohms in this case). Why this is important is that you can use a Di-box with an instrument to convert/match the impedance to what you are plugging it in to, like a mixer or preamp. Impedance matching DI boxes can be either passive or active, as well as part of a preamp.

The Pyle DI-box that I mentioned above not only has the unbalanced-to-balanced conversion function, but also a 'ground-lift' as well as a 3-level signal attenuator, which lets you adjust the output impedance to match your mixer/etc, and it required NO batteries at all.

Another thing to mention is that withou using a Di box, you may have a much thinner sound and one that lacks midrange and bass frequencies due to an impedance mismatch, i.e. mic input on mixer, but feeding it with an instrument, or that the sound going into the mixer will have a very low volume level, and you need to crank up both the TRIM knob as well as the volume fader way up (near 8-10) to be able to get a reasonable level out of the mixer to the amp and then the speakers. These are both symptoms of an impedance mismatch.

Also, if you use a preamp that has a DI XLR output, you also typically get some eq controls and/or a gain or boost control to help tailor your sound from the stage at your feet, as well as whatever the 'sound guy' does at his 'FOH' (front of house) mixer.

I should also mention that most, if not all DI boxes have a 'parallel output' as a 1/4" connector, which lets you route the unmolested signal to either a stage monitor or amplifier that you can control in order to hear yourself, regardless of what the sound guy does with his mix to the PA system.

If you buy a DI box, you might want to also get another 10-15" 'guitar cable' for your parallel output, as well as a 25" male-to-female XLR 'mic cable', that way you are prepared to connect up to anything at all.

Hope this helps! :)
 
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Wow, thanks for all the info everybody! I knew we would find some good info here. It does seem complicated, but I am slowly getting the idea. We have had several gigs outdoors, and have had some very poorly mixed performances by the "house". Feedback can be a very annoying problem, so that is one reason I got my custom with the MiSi. A monitor would help keep us all together, since a group of 8 can have a tough time hearing each other. Not sure if the monitors will cause feedback if we use microphones for ukuleles. We have an upcoming gig for playing on a parade float, which might mean we should rent equipment for that. We will be playing back to back, and will need some mega PA and monitors to make it all work, along with battery or generator power. Since we don't normally do parades like that, the equipment we will buy should be more suitable for uke fests, and other smaller venues.

Thanks
Lori
 
Best explanation I've read on the subject. I'd vote to make it a sticky!

I've been doing audio installations (and their design), working as a mobile DJ and musical performances for over 30 yrs (first as a hobby, and then as a second income), and maybe my experience can be of some use to you here.

The main reason to use a DI box, at least a PASSIVE DI box, is to be able to run a balanced signal. Having a balanced signal helps to cancel or eliminate hum. There is an influx of preamps that also serve as a DI box, but a preamp is NOT required in a DI Box.

I have several of the 'Pyle' brand DI box, which I bought from B&H Photo in NYC for $10 (& free shipping) that do the job perfectly. You do not need to spend lots of money. The same exact unit is rebadged as a Behringer and sold for $29 and rebadged and sold as Nady for $33. If you are going to spend ~$30, get the Behringer ADI-21, which is a preamp, eq, and DI box all in one and MANY folks here on UU will swear by this unit for those on a lower budget.


[WARNING WILL ROBINSON! - tech jargon ahead - Sorry :)]

The point of a 'balanced' signal and the XLR cables are two-fold:

1) By converting from an 1/4" mono 'guitar cable' which has only a single signal wire and a braided shield acting as a ground (typically referred to as UN-balanced signal) or TS as in tip-shield, to an XLR cable, which has TWO signal wires and a braided shield acting as a ground, the way it's wired at the mixer or PA is that the two signal wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, and the end result is that if there is a hum, typically from some kind of interference, it get eliminated or reduced due to what is called PHASE CANCELLATION, and where there was a hum (lets say of 60hz), there is now a 'NULL', and thus less or zero noise in the line. This BALANCED cable via the DI box also allows for much LONGER cable runs than and unbalanced cable. You can also get BALANCED cables that are in 1/4" connectors as in TRS - meaning tip-ring-shield, but they are less common in true pro audio setups.

2) A DI-box that has a transformer inside it can do IMPEDANCE matching. This is important if the PA mixer is expecting a microphone signal (like a Shure SM58 or similar) which is typically around 600 ohms, and you want to feed it an instrument signal like a guitar/bass/ukulele/etc. Instrument outputs have a huge variance in their impedance but are typically near 1 mega-ohm (1 million ohms in this case). Why this is important is that you can use a Di-box with an instrument to convert/match the impedance to what you are plugging it in to, like a mixer or preamp. Impedance matching DI boxes can be either passive or active, as well as part of a preamp.

The Pyle DI-box that I mentioned above not only has the unbalanced-to-balanced conversion function, but also a 'ground-lift' as well as a 3-level signal attenuator, which lets you adjust the output impedance to match your mixer/etc, and it required NO batteries at all.

Another thing to mention is that withou using a Di box, you may have a much thinner sound and one that lacks midrange and bass frequencies due to an impedance mismatch, i.e. mic input on mixer, but feeding it with an instrument, or that the sound going into the mixer will have a very low volume level, and you need to crank up both the TRIM knob as well as the volume fader way up (near 8-10) to be able to get a reasonable level out of the mixer to the amp and then the speakers. These are both symptoms of an impedance mismatch.

Also, if you use a preamp that has a DI XLR output, you also typically get some eq controls and/or a gain or boost control to help tailor your sound from the stage at your feet, as well as whatever the 'sound guy' does at his 'FOH' (front of house) mixer.

I should also mention that most, if not all DI boxes have a 'parallel output' as a 1/4" connector, which lets you route the unmolested signal to either a stage monitor or amplifier that you can control in order to hear yourself, regardless of what the sound guy does with his mix to the PA system.

If you buy a DI box, you might want to also get another 10-15" 'guitar cable' for your parallel output, as well as a 25" male-to-female XLR 'mic cable', that way you are prepared to connect up to anything at all.

Hope this helps! :)
 
Many 'ukulele, including some with built in preamps, do not put out enough juice to drive the step down transformer of a passive DI box through some mixing boards. An active DI box (DI with built in preamp) fixes this issue. For example on my Harbinger 8 channel mixer (Harbinger calls it a 12 channel mixer, but that's a stretch):

20141130_114304.jpg


20141130_114400.jpg


Channels 5-12 (which I call 5-8) have no pad (gain) at the input and no tone controls. Using an active DI like the Behringer ADI21 or LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI as a preamp using the unbalanced 1/4" output gives you enough signal and adds tonal control to the mono inputs to drive one of the last 4 channels.
 
@ ricdoug - That's some great info you posted - hopefully Lori will have a better idea now of the right equipment that she needs.

How are those Harbinger mixers holding up in the field? Didn't you also get a Phonic mixer a while back too? Any thoughts on that Phonic unit after using it for a while?
 
On my 18 Channel Carvin mixer (Carvin calls it a 20 channel mixer, but that's a stretch) the last two channels do not have a pad (gain). They can be used mono unbalanced or TRS balanced, though. For this mixer I use a snake to keep the stage uncluttered with all the cables:

Mixers.jpg


This board has plenty of gain and tonal control on the first 16 channels to work most instruments with a passive DI box. On the last two channels I use an active DI box using the balanced XLR output using a balanced XLR cable to a balanced 1/4 TRS to balanced XLR adaptor on the board. Ric
 
I don't own a Phonic mixer, Booli, but I have a lot of Carvin gear. The Harbinger's (I own two of them as you can see in the above photo) have been used about 20 times each live without a hiccup. Some of my Carvin gear is over 20 years old. Ric
 
I don't own a Phonic mixer, Booli, but I have a lot of Carvin gear. The Harbinger's (I own two of them as you can see in the above photo) have been used about 20 times each live without a hiccup. Some of my Carvin gear is over 20 years old. Ric

Thanks for the clarification. I must have gotten the Phonic mixed up with the Harbinger from one of the MF 'Stupid Deals'.

I've encountered lots of Mackie 1202 and 1404 series mixers in Brick & Mortar retail stores, as well as having seen them in use frequently at live shows, any thoughts about these mixers?

I've also been getting the Carvin catalog in the mail for years, but never had hands-on with anything they manufacture. It's good to hear that their equipment holds up. I will have another look for the next time I need to get a live setup going.

For many years I used a RAMSA (Panasonic/Technics) 24 channel board that was great, but when it died the cost of repair was too high (massive power surge fried the power supply) and my dealer (Dave from Sim-O-Rama Sound in NJ) lent me an old Allen & Heath 32 channel board to use indefinitely (really great guy) in the hope that I would buy it, but it was HUGE in size and weight, and way overkill for what I was doing at the time.
 
Wow, that is quite a system!. I was wondering about those dual channel lines. If XLR is balanced, and 1/4 inch usually not balanced, I can see how something like a 1/4 TRS to XLR Adaptor would make those doubled up inputs more useful, and how an active DI box can give you more control. We are looking at the more affordable Mackie Pro FX12 mixing board, which is currently around $200. We probably only perform about 6 times a year, so it is not going to get really heavy use.. They have an open box one in the local store. Not sure if I will get a discount on that since it showing light wear. I was wondering about active verses passive DI boxes. Thanks for your help. It really is great that we can share all your hard earned experience. We haven't been getting a lot of paying gigs, so we figured we would start out at about this level.

–Lori
 
Booli, you must be around my age if you remember Ramsa :)
Carvin is about a 20 minute drive :)

Lori, Mackie gets it's quality gear from many countries. The mixer you are looking at is 8 channels with a pad (gain) and tone control on all channels. It may have enough drive to plug the 'ukulele through an amplifier/powered speaker. The last two channels give you the choice of 1/4" TS (Tip/Sleeve) mono unbalanced or 1/4" TRS (Tip/Ring/Sleeve) balanced. Mono or stereo (a keyboard, for example) Here's a link to the owners manual:

http://www.mackie.com/products/profxseries/pdf/ProFX-OM.pdf
 
I can see how something like a 1/4 TRS to XLR Adaptor would make those doubled up inputs more useful
–Lori

Channels 9/10 and 11/12 are stereo channels - whether you use them mono or stereo they are still 2 channels. If you were to try to use them as individual inputs, the sound for each instrument would come out of the left only or right only. Ric
 
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