LMi Aqua coat clear wood grain filler. Warning Warning

Michael Smith

Michael Smith

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Feeling brave because of a previous post about the clear grain filler from Stuart McDonald I decided to try the LMI brand. It went on very nicely then promptly turned my beautiful red brown Koa tenor green. A sickening pea green cast, very pronounced. It penetrated so deeply I cannot remove the green cast completely with extensive sanding. Living only a few miles from LMI it's the most I can do not to drive back there and throw it through their plate glass window. What a mess.
 
Thanks for the post, Mr. Smith. I recently saw a product called AquaCoat reviewed in a woodwork mag and debated about purchasing the filler. I am not sure if it is the same filler as you are describing from SMD orLMI. I would post a link, but don't know how to. Do you think it was a bad chemical reaction between the two materials or something different?
 
I think it must have been a reaction between the Koa and the filler. I tried some on mahogany, the mahogany didn't change color at all. I did a naphtha wipe before filling perhaps it reacted with the naphtha residue, I don't know. What I do know is I aint ever using that crap ever again, not in this life time or the next.
 
Oh man oh man. I feel your pain Michael. A thing like that can ruin your whole day. Sorry. You do nice work and don't deserve that... By the way I live fairly close to LMI if you don't count a huge mountain or two in the way and some of the worst roads in the country, I'm pretty close. They are really good folks and definitely would want to know about this and I bet they would make good. Maybe a trip to Windsor is in order? Anyway, thanks for the warning.
 
I second that. They're good people and they should be informed of the problem. Whether or not you get some money back is up to their after-sales policies, but an apology is in order, and your (bad) experience might avoid further problems for them down the line.
 
Oh man, that sucks! I would bring the uke over to them to see what they say. From my experience, they stand by their products.

The filler coming from Stewmac (it's called Good filla or something like that) is different than the LMii stuff. I did pick up the LMii filler a couple of weeks ago, but have yet to really test it. Generally, I make about 10 to 20 test panels to figure out what's the best way to apply it, what I can add to it(tints), and if it's any good. If I like it, I'll do a ukulele with it and see how it holds up after a New England winter before I put on something I'll be selling.
 
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When you are using a new filler or any kind of finish/stain/dye etc. it should ALWAYS be tested on an off cut of the same wood type. I fell victim to a similar thing many years ago. I'd heard of a new way to fill pores and I promptly went right ahead and used it on a newly made instrument. I spent hour after hour very carefully trying to pick out the filler from every single pore. The experience probably cost me 10 hours work. I just about salvaged it but it did teach me a very hard lesson. I'm not sure you should be blaming the makers or the sellers of the filler.
 
It is a shame what happened. Unfortunately, most companies will only accept liability up to the cost of the product, a pittance when you take into account the cost of materials and labor involved.
Should have tested it on an off-cut from the exact same woods. Caveat emptor.
mainger said:
I second that. They're good people and they should be informed of the problem. Whether or not you get some money back is up to their after-sales policies, but an apology is in order, and your (bad) experience might avoid further problems for them down the line.
Click to expand...
 
I've used Aqua Coat for a couple of years and I like it. My experience with it is under nitro finishes only. In the 1970's and 80's, a lot of us would get our filler from the Martin Guitar Company. In those days they would send you a plastic bottle of flammable solvent based, brown gunk filler in the mail. Back then, you probably could have sent dynamite through the mail! Times were different. I pretty much try anything new that comes along, if it looks at all promising. Actually those old solvent based fillers, thinned with Naphtha, were pretty easy to use. Unfortunately they were not clear and we had to tint the filler to match the wood. That was a pain, and sometimes a slight disaster. Along the way, I've come to discover that the success of using a particular filler comes with learning how to use it.Dirt would probably work just fine if you could find a good binder! I know that the current rage is super glue and epoxy, and I've tried both. Although I could see the potential of both, I just don't enjoy working with the stuff. Many of the waterbase fillers I've tried dry just too hard to be easy to use. Aqua Coat dries to an easily sandable state. About the only thing you can do wrong with it is to put it on bare wood. Even that might work on some woods, but I always use a wash coat of finish under the filler. About 75% of my work is with koa, and there are no problems at all with this filler, unless you get it on the bare wood. In fact, most of the waterbase fillers and finishes I've seen will turn the blacks in koa to some shade of green. You can do a fill coat of Aqua Coat on a uke in about 10 minutes. A guitar takes maybe 15. It dries almost instantly, but I give it plenty of time. I do 3 coats, with no sanding in between. I let it dry for a day and then sand it with 220 and 320. If you have left any piles of it anywhere, you might have to do a spot 150 grit sanding to get it off. It takes a couple of instruments to learn how to use this stuff. It is very clear, and you probably won't get it all sanded smooth until you learn how to see it. Rough spots of filler will telegraph through the topcoats.
 
Pegasus Guitars said:
I've used Aqua Coat for a couple of years and I like it. My experience with it is under nitro finishes only. In the 1970's and 80's, a lot of us would get our filler from the Martin Guitar Company. In those days they would send you a plastic bottle of flammable solvent based, brown gunk filler in the mail. Back then, you probably could have sent dynamite through the mail! Times were different. I pretty much try anything new that comes along, if it looks at all promising. Actually those old solvent based fillers, thinned with Naphtha, were pretty easy to use. Unfortunately they were not clear and we had to tint the filler to match the wood. That was a pain, and sometimes a slight disaster. Along the way, I've come to discover that the success of using a particular filler comes with learning how to use it.Dirt would probably work just fine if you could find a good binder! I know that the current rage is super glue and epoxy, and I've tried both. Although I could see the potential of both, I just don't enjoy working with the stuff. Many of the waterbase fillers I've tried dry just too hard to be easy to use. Aqua Coat dries to an easily sandable state. About the only thing you can do wrong with it is to put it on bare wood. Even that might work on some woods, but I always use a wash coat of finish under the filler. About 75% of my work is with koa, and there are no problems at all with this filler, unless you get it on the bare wood. In fact, most of the waterbase fillers and finishes I've seen will turn the blacks in koa to some shade of green. You can do a fill coat of Aqua Coat on a uke in about 10 minutes. A guitar takes maybe 15. It dries almost instantly, but I give it plenty of time. I do 3 coats, with no sanding in between. I let it dry for a day and then sand it with 220 and 320. If you have left any piles of it anywhere, you might have to do a spot 150 grit sanding to get it off. It takes a couple of instruments to learn how to use this stuff. It is very clear, and you probably won't get it all sanded smooth until you learn how to see it. Rough spots of filler will telegraph through the topcoats.
Click to expand...

Hi Bob. Aqua Coat sent me a jar of the stuff for a possible review in American Lutherie. But you're so far ahead of me on this that you should write it. About everything you need to say is right above. Offer it to Tim and see what he says. I liked your story in the new issue.
 
LMI told me they were unaware that Aqua Coat could cause a color shift on raw koa. I believe them. They said they are testing on some of their koa. They overnighted me some Zpoxy gratis. I didn't ask. I do find a bit odd the manufacturer was unaware of a color shift on raw koa but according to the fellow from LMI who called me that is exactly what the maker told them. That and you might want to shellac first. I would like to point out I applied the product exactly as the Robbie O'Brien video on the LMI site describes. The top of my instrument was douglas fir. There was no color shift on the top nor the mahogany I tested. I ordered a similar product from Stuart McDonald to see if it does the same thing. Now I'm curious. This product does go on easier than just about anything I have used.
 
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The Stewmac stuff had no reaction on the Koa I had but the mahogany was problematic more because of the piece of wood I was using. I stopped bending koa with water in a machine set-up because of the green cast and staining. Now I hand bend and set it in the machine bender...
 
Pete - now you have me concerned. I suffered some 'greening' when I bent my first set of koa sides, using a heat blanket machine-type setup (home brew). The wood was wrapped in paper and then aluminum foil. I questioned the 'green' effect here earlier, and one opinion was that there must have been a little iron in the water (and indeed, we have a certain iron content in the water around here) and I should used distilled water. I have not bent another set of koa side since, but figured that when I do, distilled water will solve the 'greening' problem. Are you saying that the 'greening' is some how inherent in koa + hot water/steam of a bender environment? Do you hand bend dry and then 'finish' things in the machine?
 
You need the opinion of Chuck and others who work consistently with koa and seem to have little problem. I experimented for about a year trying every method I could down to collected rain water and still got discoloration. Now I hand bend and then 'set' it in a machine with a heat blanket on full blast for 4 minutes allowing it to fully cool in the form before taking it out. I've bent over 1400 sides so am getting the hang of hand bending. Setting them is just to remove those minor kinks you get with highly figured wood and in anticipation that one day I might revert to wood bindings :)
 
Pete,

You may have something with the water. I received a can of Color Tone water based filler from Stu Mac. I tested it on a piece of wood that had been bent with a blanket. It was wrapped in aluminum foil and placed between two spring steel slats. It did not come out of the bender green but when I applied the Aqua Seal it turned green. When I did the same test with the Stu Mac Color Tone filler. It also got a green cast. This leads me to believe something in the bending process may be introducing a chemical into the koa. Either the water, the aluminum, or the spring steel slats. I suspect the aluminum when heated to 300 degrees is giving off aluminum oxide and that may be causing the problem? Or perhaps just heating the koa may cause a chemical change. I have to do more testing but an initial test of a piece of koa that did not go through the bender did not produce the green tint with either product. The image below is a sequential cut of koa the one on the left is unfilled the one on the right filled with Aqua Seal . Both were wiped with Naphtha.

IMG_1081.jpg
 
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Ah ha! I might have an answer to your problem Michael. I was watching a video of a Mya-Moe bending operation when Char mentions that using stainless steel backers on the bending process will change your wood to a nice green color. Something to do with chromium I believe. Anyway, stainless steel is a no-no when it comes to bending. Just straight flexible carbon steel.... Also, I have used the SMD clear filler on a variety of woods (not Koa yet) and have seen no green. I have other issues with the stuff, but greening is not one of them. The issues I suspect are with me and not the substance, but I'm not comfortable with the stuff yet. Interestingly, I've had excellent results with the stuff on all kinds of woods except for mahogany which is the main reason I used the stuff in the first place. Note this is the SMD stuff which might or might not be different than the LMI stuff, but I suspect they are one and the same.
 
I bend using blue spring steel slats with the side inserted into a dampened canvas "envelope" and rain water (I'm on water catchment here) and have never experienced any discoloration with koa. I don't know if that's attributed to a single thing or all of these things but it may give someone else a clue to solving their problem.
 
I got some patchiness which I think had to do with how I sanded out the filler and not necessarily the filler itself. Maybe. The directions said only two coats on raw wood with no backer. Next time I'm going to try three coats over a shellac backer. I'm not saying you should do this, but that is the next step I want to try. Funny, but the two coats on raw wood worked perfect for me on every wood I used except mahogany. Also there might be some issues with the quality of the mahogany I was using. Old growth Honduran this ain't if you get my drift...
 
It is pretty clear from all that I have encountered and what Bob has said that using this produce without first shellacing can lead to madness.
 
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