Why do you build what you do? Question to beginner builders :)

And this really is only for beginning builders...

Back Story:
I've just hosted an intern in my workshop and had a great week. Like all who have done this, he was seeking guidance and was looking to see how a full-time professional shop works. He brought his four builds to-date for me to evaluate and I witnessed something I have seen before - an initial tentative first build with a less than perfect neck joint, some basic design and execution errors in other areas and a thin tone lacking sustain due to a heavy front - all the classic beginners mistakes bar one - it was very nicely finished! The next build was a leap in complexity with the next one exactly the same in adventurousness... and so on.

So this is the question: why do first or beginning builders tackle projects which over challenge?

One thing I most admire about Ken Timms, apart from the fact that he is a top bloke, is that he does a great Martin mahogany soprano repro. It's all he choses to do. I was in communication with him at the start of his journey so I have seen how he has developed; how quickly he discarded the distractions of building other styles, using other materials, even building then giving to his son a CNC machine because he couldn't use it for what he wanted to do! All this a strong model for how to get good at something - do it again and where appropriate, improve on it. Repeat...

So why do beginning builders want to play in the super league on their first builds? It is a mystery to me. And perhaps even greater is those rare beginners who do this and pull it off. It took me about a year before I started to know what I had to do, 15 years before I thought I was doing a fair job!

Hats off to you all

I don't know Pete. Perhaps there is no thought at all to the level of skill required.

Whenever I run a building course, I get at least 25% of the students asking to build something other that what's on offer, and then that being something very complex with cutaways and bevels.

First off, I don't think all first builders do over achieve. I do think that many people get in to building because a builder wont build what they want or want too much money so they figure they'll just build it themselves. Usually, they find out why someone wouldn't build it or wanted to much money to build it. Honestly, I bet more budding builders don't finish their first build and I believe those that do complete it, regardless of how shoddy the work, deserve a certain amount of respect just for completing a build. It definitely isn't an easy task by any means.

How do you know what your capabilities are unless you try?

Because I love a challenge! For me, making a normal, simple instrument is boring. I do this hobby because I love being creative, trying stuff I've never seen done before or working out how to do something that looks impossibly hard on someone else's instruments. I make furniture all day in my job, so what I do for fun has to feel totally different to that. I mainly do it for the journey, not the end result. All my instruments are for me anyway so I don't really care if they work out or not.
And as Printer2 said, how are you ever going to know what's possible if you've never done anything different.
That's just me though

I hope to be a beginner 'uke builder in a couple months -- keep me busy over the winter. I built dulcimers many decades ago and have some basic idea of my capabilities or lack thereof. I hope my first 'uke attempts will be a step up from cigar-box level. I do not delude myself that I will craft masterpieces. That's not my temperament. I am not obsessed with premium woods, complex architecture, fastidious wood-butchery, and ornate finish.

Instead, I want to built playable weird instruments, some of which I've mentioned in other threads. 'Ukes that aren't readily available at a reasonable price. 2- and 3-neck 'ukes and banjo-'ukes. 'Uke d'amores with sympathetic strings. Other ideas I don't recall at the moment as I'm limp with fatigue but they're probably Rube Goldbergian devices that no sane luthier would attempt.

Which raises the question: Do sane luthiers exist?

It's a matter of patience and speed. Some people can finish their first build in less than a month, and in that case doing a practice build wouldn't be so bad. But some of us take many months, and spending all that time on something you're not really excited about is a recipe for failure. So what if it takes a little longer to do what you really want? More fun leads to working on it more often and finishing sooner anyway.

It takes less effort to build elaborate stuff than it does to resist doing it

I built my first uke last month. I aspired to more than I was capable of because, on the way in, I had no idea of what it takes to build a uke. I learned a lot about building ukes. I learned a lot about what I was and wasn't capable of. I now want, more than ever, to build another uke, just a little more complex than the first.

As a beginner I think its different for all. I make pretty simple looking Ukuleles with the focus on how it sounds and plays. With each one I try to do something a little different to challenge myself, not always cosmetic. Going from Spanish Heel to Bolt On, making a better bender, trying a different Jig are just more challenges. I think if there was no challenge to overcome this would become boring and turn more into production work. I would like to believe that after 15 years you are still looking for that challenge.

Added note: I have been building for 2 years next month with #8 and #9 in the works. It will be a long time before I consider myself anything but

Since you requested, Pete, I feel, as a beginner, obliged to add my thoughts, although it seems obvious that there are a variety of reasons why a beginner decides to build, certainly not all are over achievers. Those who are, usually don't realize what's involved until it's too late! In my own case, after "discovering" the ukulele and learning to play one, it was a natural progression to want to build my own, since I have since childhood been involved in all forms of arts and crafts. My first attempt was a cigar box uke, followed by a Stewmac soprano kit, mainly because I found it difficult to obtain the items needed for uke construction. This taught me a lot and from then on , there was no going back. Fortunately, my past experience with model aircraft building and my engraving vocation, helped me a lot. I know I have a long, long way to go to achieve my goals and will take small steps to get there. I hope this helps.

Bob

Pete I love ya man. Aloha. I think this is going to be a great thread. But I don't basically agree with your premise or your question.

This is the way I see what you are saying: The beginner shouldn't reach beyond their limited skills until they have mastered the basics such as neck attachment, etc. etc. Building an uke is a step-wise process that in order to master completely, should not be exceeded by no more than small increments until mastered even if this takes years and years before you move on. This is the classic master/apprentice relationship and it has merit.

The place where we separate is that maybe we are talking two different situations: The established shop (you) and the beginner toiling away in his shed/garage/kitchen table. Two different environments. The beginner in his dank shed. Alone. No teacher. No real idea. No direction. Is it any wonder that his neck is wonky and his top too thick? What I want to say Pete is that you should help these people instead of questioning their flawed technique. Just say (after taking a deep, deep breath) first of all we need to get the neck on straight and then we...

I feel I need to add to this thread.
I was that intern mentioned by Pete

sequoia said:

The established shop (you) and the beginner toiling away in his shed/garage/kitchen table. Two different environments. The beginner in his dank shed. Alone. No teacher. No real idea. No direction. Is it any wonder that his neck is wonky and his top too thick?

Click to expand...

This is an almost perfect analogy! In hindsight though, perhaps I could have sought further advise or guidance. The main issues is, that when you are on your own, you don’t know what is wrong until its done! ps. my neck wasn’t wonky ha ha ha

sequoia said:

I want to say Pete is that you should help these people instead of questioning their flawed technique. Just say (after taking a deep, deep breath) first of all we need to get the neck on straight and then we...

Click to expand...

This I need to correct. Pete never questioned my flawed attempts. and he certainly DID help me by finding out what issues I had come across and discussing or showing me how he resolved such issues.

What he did question, is exactly as posted. “why after my first (relatively) poor attempt did I try to to make something more difficult without reflecting and revisiting what went wrong with the first one.?” .. and then doing the same on my 3rd attempt etc.
I think that it is a classic thing that most keen amateurs do. we want to try everything NOW. everything is new and exciting. I feel that it is through the guidance of seasoned builders that the amateur will recognise that processes need to be repeated many times to get them right.
certainly a case of learning to walk first...

After my time with Pete, I have looked back and will now concentrate on repeating processes.

I hope my ramblings make some sense!!

In fact.. I have just thought more about this!!!

I DO know the answer to this.
As a builder who wants to produce instruments to sell, you need to repeat the builds until you get them good enough. Consistency is the answer.
As a home builder who is making instruments for themselves, I don’t want 10+ identical models (each hopefully improving slightly in quality)
I want to try different woods, sizes, shapes, techniques etc. Hopefully the improvements will come, perhaps at a slower rate, but they will come all the same.

Lot of good insight, for a lack of a better word, on reasons for the choices we make. Have not built a uke yet but am using my guitar building journey to substitute. I never decided I want to build a master grade instrument and jumped in with little experience. Instead I arrived where I am progressively and never imagined I was going to be building real instruments. All started with seeing a kid playing a cigar box guitar and thinking I could build that. My next step was one out of necessity, I was just starting to learn how to play guitar but I had some medical issues where I spent hours in bed which I thought would be better spent practicing. Looked for a thinner acoustic guitar but luckily the music store had them off to the side and I missed them. So I decided to build one.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp142/printer2_photo/Guitar builds/Acoustic49.jpg

I was on a forum where people built electrics and thought I could make an acoustic guitar by routing out the whole center of a hollow body and using a thin top. A lot of good builders there and I managed to make a nice neck and the guitar sounded louder and better than I imagined. Should have stopped there and spent my time learning how to play, instead I thought I could build an acoustic that did not just sound close to a real guitar. Ordered some wood in but not wanting to screw it up I decided to make a practice guitar out of pine and cedar out of construction material. I was told by a few builders on a different site that I should not waste my time on the wood I was using and pick up a kit to start with. But I had a vision and wanted to see what it would be like. Lot of learning and making tooling and jigs but ended up making a cute little guitar.

http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/...uitar Build No 2/BuildNo2-154_zpsad885ab1.jpg

Fit and finish is not perfect but playable and sounds pretty good. I should have stopped there and concentrated on my playing but now I am hooked on building. Had no real previous fine woodworking experience but like a few others building planes out of balsa gave me a reasonable foundation. Since I am hooked by now the next few guitars were built plainly and not shooting for perfection as it is faster to complete an instrument. I am more interested in exploring the range of tonal possibilities and what will produce a good sounding instrument. I'll get fancy once I am reasonably confident the instrument will sound like I want it to. Part of the reason I am here, to explore the smaller instruments as well.

Kevs-the-name said:

I DO know the answer to this.
As a builder who wants to produce instruments to sell, you need to repeat the builds until you get them good enough. Consistency is the answer.
As a home builder who is making instruments for themselves, I don’t want 10+ identical models (each hopefully improving slightly in quality)

Click to expand...

You've nailed something. Decades ago I built dulcimers to sell, not to keep, and I strove for economy and consistency. When I restart my building program I'll focus on experimentation and dreams, not commercial production. Maybe someone might want to buy such weird fantasies but that's their problem and not mine. My goal isn't to build fine instruments but to see what's possible. I'll guess many beginning amateur luthiers want to push the envelope -- they've handled custom axes beyond their budget and want to make their own, but fancier, more out-there. Exotics woods and inlays! Complex architecture! We are easily caught-up in the thrill and may neglect the basics. Oops. Oh no, not ANOTHER damn learning experience!

1- It is good to build a simple instrument at first.

2- It is better to aim higher then you can achieve at the time. I'm still doing it!

Interesting thread. I find similar ambitions among some college freshman in science and engineering. Many wish to begin advanced research without having completed their first courses in science and math. It's good to have goals. That's what inspired them to start.

In a far few months time I hope to build my first stick Uke. Why - simply because I can't believe the extortionate price that is asked for Stick Ukuleles. I just want one that would easily travel, and I'm not prepared to pay over £100 to get one.

In my own expert field, I would say students always want to leap ahead because they don't realise the fundamentals make a firm trunk to the tree and what goes into being that full leafed, well rounded Oak, rather then a lanky, scraggy little thing no better then a twig.

"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."

Pablo Picasso

For me it is simple but like all good ideas it has been expressed by someone before me better and even used as their sig line
To make the world a better place Ukulele by ukulele.
Thanks Sven.