Antonio Stradivari

I've been reading an interesting book on Antonio Stradivari and his violins (Antonio Stradivari - His Life and Work (1644-1737, Dover Books, 1963).

I don't play the violin nor do I make them, but I thought there were some interesting thoughts for ukulele makers.

- Antonio slavishly copied his master's designs (Amati) until he got them absolutely right before heading off in his own direction. This may have taken up to 30 years.

- Antonio produced a lot of violins.

- He worked without help or assistants (mostly)

- Not all of his violins were masterpieces and he produced some real clunkers. So even the Great Stradivari made the occasional boat paddle. I take comfort in this.

- His varnishing enhanced the sound of his instruments rather than detracting.

- He used local "found" wood when he had too and it was nothing particularly special. It was the construction that made the masterpiece and not the wood.

- He sometimes used slab (flat sawn) wood instead of quarter sawn.

- He made his last violin at the age of 94.

Anyway, interesting stuff... Now on to our regularly scheduled programming...

I've read that book. good stuff.
But what you said of the wood is also true of the varnish.

sequoia said:

- Antonio slavishly copied his master's designs (Amati) until he got them absolutely right before heading off in his own direction. This may have taken up to 30 years.

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This was the standard method of learning in many artistic fields throughout most of history, until just fairly recent times when people's view on copying shifted from it being the default way of learning, and an expression of respect and admiration, to being seen as unoriginal plagiarism.

I bought a beater fiddle last week for US$20 at a low-class antique shop. I plan to screw a salvaged 'uke neck onto it and make a violele -- stained bright red, probably. When I shine a light through the bottom f-hole I see printed in ink:


and a little symbol I can't make out inside a circle. Think I have a keeper?

Amazing back in 1737 someone lived to be 94.

Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:

But what you said of the wood is also true of the varnish.

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Exactly. There are two great myths about why these things sound so good. The first is that his wood came from the Bay of Venice (sinker logs) and were impregnated with some sort of magical mineral that made them sing. Not so. And second, his varnish was some sort of secret magical concoction that made average violins into masterpieces. Also not true. It was what he did with these two things that made them so good. The truth is he was an incredibly talented artist/craftsman that worked very, very hard to perfect his craft.

He was a shrewd business man too (I think) in that he produced a violin that was easy to play and yet could fill a concert hall with power and yet sounded good in a drawing room too. Thus he could sell to the professional concert hall musician as well as the (rich) amateur who just wanted to make pretty music in their living rooms. Probably a good reason why they are still so sought after.

Also any surviving Strad has had work done on it..

No doubt he built fine instruments, but it turns out that expert violinists can't tell the difference between a top-of-the-line modern one and a Strad.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/16/313099219/is-a-stradivarius-just-a-violin

Dougf said:

No doubt he built fine instruments, but it turns out that expert violinists can't tell the difference between a top-of-the-line modern one and a Strad.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/16/313099219/is-a-stradivarius-just-a-violin

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No, no I don't think that anyone would say he didn't build a fine fiddle. Yeah, they were good. Very good.. But here is the thing Doug, that these so called "experts" can't tell the difference between an 18th century violin and a 20th century model has me seriously questioning their "expertness" and there ear. I mean if you can't hear a difference between a 300 year old violin and a modern model than I would seriously question your expertise as a so called violin expert. They do sound different. Whether they sound better or not... well that is a different question. How are my ukuleles going to sound in 315 years. Ha, ha, ha I say. What is the sound of saw dust?

The study did not say that the 'experts' could not tell a difference, only that they could not tell which was the old one and which was the new one.

They reproduced the results with two sets of experts.

Here's another link to the same study with a better description of the actual experiment and its results.

http://www.livescience.com/44651-new-violins-beat-stradivarius.html

.

Actually a well done study and the results legitimate I think. A couple reasons maybe the old warhorses didn't measure up as well to modern instruments:

1) The violins are old and like an old wooden boat are becoming cooked. Nothing lasts forever. Not even a Strad. How well will a today's modern instruments perform in the 24th century?
2) Modern tastes in sound have changed and what sounded good to the ear in the 17th century doesn't sound as good to a musician in the 21st century.
3) Modern violins really are better. Quite possible.

The reason I started this thread was more about lutherie and Stradivari than about violins per se and more as it related to ukulele building in general. Thus the posting on UU. The points being: Thoroughly get the basics down no matter how long it takes, then innovate, innovate, innovate, and then work hard at your craft to perfect the instrument.

Yeah Yeah...but he never made a descent sounding ukulele did he?

Still pretty impressive that a 300 year old fiddle can still exist, let alone still be a world class instrument

Pete Howlett said:

Also any surviving Strad has had work done on it..

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"The Messiah" hasn't been touched- i think that is the only one with the original neck set.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Also,
Great Movie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120802/

Great Book (this is the other books i've read which follows the history of said instruments)
http://www.amazon.com/Stradivaris-G...43633147&sr=8-2&keywords=4+violins,+one+cello

Note that the 'experts' were not ivory-tower theoreticians but leading violin soloists with rather a bit of experience hearing and making music. Some folks really do have expertise, y'know. Not like me.

ksquine said:

Yeah Yeah...but he never made a descent sounding ukulele did he?

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And no banjos, twelve-string guitars, balalaikas, charangos, et al -- not even fretless ones. What a piker.

good subject. aside from aesthetics, would two piece bookmatched flat sawn panels be the equal of two piece quarter sawn?

Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:

"The Messiah" hasn't been touched- i think that is the only one with the original neck set.

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Now here is something interesting: Antonio basically nailed his necks on with a simple glued butt joint and 3 or 4 nails. A sort of crude "bolt on neck" when you think about it. (How things come full circle.) He did this because the mortise and tenon joint on instruments had not yet been invented. Note Picture below of a surviving headblock to neck join. Most of these were long ago replaced because, well, the neck probably fell off.



Pete's point is well taken. Virtually all Strads were extensively repaired/restored over the century's simply because they became unplayable or were frankly falling apart. Many times these repairs/restorations were horribly botched (butchered) so that the original instrument no longer exists other than a few parts and that all important label. And the number of frauds that nobody has detected? It is a murky world out there in old violin-land.

Yeah Yeah...but he never made a descent sounding ukulele did he?

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Actually he made all sorts of instruments other than violins. Lutes (very old fashioned), and at least three guitars, two of which exist today complete and a third where only the neck exists. Could he have made an ukulele type four stringed instrument? Quite possible. If you should find one, please send me an email. Please.

nailed the neck on, hey? no wonder he was able to produce so many instruments. i have thought about the neck joint a lot with my upcoming cigar box builds, and decided on antonio's approach. not exactly, just my version of it. i know the dovetail is a traditional and excellent join. since my parts are meeting at a flat ninety degree, i figure to use four 3/8" dowels. it would be the normal approach in my shop. as to quality. the joint should be the equal and better of any stresses put on it. whatever could make it fail would be catastrophic abuse that would destroy the instrument with the best joint.
tell you what i am rather amused that he used some nails. there is evidently more going on here than i thought.
the more i hear about stradivari the more of a mystery it is. i honestly don't get large portions of what is going on. perlman swears by their volume up and down the street and he is in my mind the top player, yet you have the blind testing and that's not nonsense. there is an explanation just not one that i grasp. my approach would be to bleed plenty for a nice unit 7k at best and call it good enough. fortunately it's not my instrument. you don't have to understand everything in life. it's part of the wonder of things.

chuck in ny said:

you don't have to understand everything in life. it's part of the wonder of things.

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Pretty much says it all.

i'd like to throw this out for your opinions on the subject of old instruments. has there been progress in ukulele construction in the last 100 years, and i would specifically ask whether e.g. kinnard and moore ukuleles are the better of kamaka &c. i have never played one but will answer that they must be otherwise people would not pay the premium. perhaps people pay half for looks and half for sound but that is the least percentage for sound as it's the major criterion.
my other instrument is trumpet and my feeling is that it is a consumer item with a 20 year life for a working musician. people play horns from the jazz age that are 50 and 100 years old and are in good condition and a modern trumpet of good manufacture can last for a very long stretch. the 20 year figure is losing the passion and speaking as an accountant would, the valves can wear, some players' saliva and body chemistry is acidic and wears on the brass tubing, and the progress that has been made with brass manufacture just as it has with string instruments. the instrument serves its purpose and you treat yourself to something new and exciting. naturally certain instruments brass or string are lifetime keepers and are carefully passed on to loved ones.
there is always someone out there with strong life force and something to prove. this is characteristic of our species. it would be an anomaly and a temporary aberration if someone could not do better.