Ervin Somogyi on voicing

I enjoyed these thoughts at Ervin Somogyi's blog recently. Thought I'd share-
http://www.esomogyi.com/blog.html#voicing1

Thanks for posting that. I've always loved his work. Slightly off topic, but I'll be interested to see the results of his 3 identical guitars test in his most recent blog post.

Aloha Andrew ,
Thank you for the insightful blog, im guessing the luthiers who know tricks on voicing will not give it away
Its not tone, yup i meant the voice of your instrument.
Yes and if voicing in any way be controlled after the instrument is done for adjustment..
Im asking all luthiers gurus here, you can pm me..

i like that guy. all common sense and a good approach.

mm stan said:

Aloha Andrew ,
Thank you for the insightful blog, im guessing the luthiers who know tricks on voicing will not give it away
Its not tone, yup i meant the voice of your instrument.
Yes and if voicing in any way be controlled after the instrument is done for adjustment..
Im asking all luthiers gurus here, you can pm me..

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You can shave away bracing after an instrument is done. More difficult is to add wood/bracing to an unstable instrument or one that is too floppy (ie too much bracing was shaved off so it aint stiff enough to get a good tone).

I've preached this from the beginning: ALL uke makers should read guitar making books

beau

which guitar making books would be most helpful?

chuck in ny said:

beau

which guitar making books would be most helpful?

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Books of Luthiery
1. Contemporary Acoustic Guitar Design and Build- Gilet/Gore (2 Vols) (http://www.giletguitars.com.au/book.shtml) or (http://www.goreguitars.com.au/main/page_the_book_overview.html)
Disclaimer- i used to work at Gilet Guitars but this is acknowledged as the most scientific book on luthiery out there- alot is totally over my head as everything said in here is backed up with math and equations
The full review from American Lutherie # 109, Spring 2012. by R.M. Mottola (http://LiutaioMottola.com) can be read here: http://www.goreguitars.com.au/main/page_the_book_full_review.html

2. The Responsive Guitar- Ervin Somogyi (2 Vols) (GET ON AMAZON)
These two volumes tell you both everything and nothing.- I read them after I had been building for about 8 years and i think it would be difficult to build a guitar(instrument) without prior knowledge with these books. It is a must have for guitar builders though and there is much excellent knowledge i here for uke makers.

3. Making Master Guitars – Roy Courtnall (Expensive (about $100 for 1 vol) but good)- I only got this book in 2014- its great and all the classical guitars show the same top/back/sides thicknessess as ukes. Its more history then building but there is building in it- shows (and talks about) 7 or 8 luthiers different approaches to top bracings.
4. Classical Guitar Making- John Bogdanovich (this is cheap at $25 and really good)

5. The Art of Inlay- Larry Robinson (just for inlay)
6. The Luthier’s Handbook- Roger H Siminoff (Tap tuning etc- not great but something to eventually buy)
7. How to Make a Living Doing Something Crazy- Kent Carlos Everett (a must have)
8. The Qualities of Craftsmanship- Kent Carlos Everett (also a must but not quite as must as the above)
9. The Big Red Book of American Lutherie- All volumes are excellent resources. (Great stuff voer 6 -soon to be 7 vols)
10. Trade Secrets Vol 1 and 2- from Stew mac- some good tips in here. (more good stuff- been a while since ive seen these though)
11. Guitar Finishing- An excellent instrument finishing book by Stew Mac # 5095. (excellent finishing book, especially for colours, bursts etc)
12. Making an Archtop Guitar- Robert Benedetto (if you want to do a carve top uke)
13. The Guitar Players Repair Guide- Dan Erlewine (Excellent resource, tips, tricks)

Thank you very much for putting together such an extensive list. I appreciate it.

Mahalo Beau, fo sharing

Surprised this one was not mentioned yet.

Left-Brain Lutherie

Using Physics and Engineering Concepts for Building Guitar Family Instruments: An Introductory Guide to Their Practical Application

ISBN 0-9760883-0-4

http://www.ukuleles.com/LBLBook/TOC.html

I do not have it yet, do have the Gore/Gilet books.

mm stan said:

Aloha Andrew ,
Thank you for the insightful blog, im guessing the luthiers who know tricks on voicing will not give it away

Click to expand...

Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:

You can shave away bracing after an instrument is done. More difficult is to add wood/bracing to an unstable instrument or one that is too floppy (ie too much bracing was shaved off so it aint stiff enough to get a good tone).

I've preached this from the beginning: ALL uke makers should read guitar making books

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This reminds me of the David Crosby mods on his Martin that has become legend/folklore. I would say this ability separates someone who can make an instrument from someone who is an actual luthier. And I would imagine the best ones know the tricks, as mm stan has said, and evaluate each instrument and make the necessary tweaks to maximize the instrument's potential.

John

Also, it is a usual practice to add poster putty (in australia we call it blue-tac- the blobby stuff you hang posters on the wall with) to the inside of a classical guitar top to dampen problem nodes which cause a variety of problems such as buzzing, and top resonance being in sync with the air resonance making a wolf note.

If I win my fellowship Beau we are going to have a very serious discussion about this... as well as one with Chuck! I have never measured a darn thing or tried to tap tune or voice a ukulele. I'm too concerned about getting the other stuff right. And because I do, people consider I do a decent job. Now if I could find a way to improve that wasn't based on theoretical physics (bearing in mind most of this applied stuff is not empirically tested, peer reviewed and substantiated by a doctorial research fellowship - the only way it could be truly validated and move from opinion to fact) I think I would sit up and listen The other thing I just do not understand with all this theory is the premise that wood behaves in a predictable way - example: I have just completed 6 concert vita ukes. Tap the front and they all sound no better than a wet cardboard box and yet they have the most powerful, sweet sound out. Admittedly the cedar top walnut body one is the warmest with the mahogany body coming in second and the koa body one chirping away like it was made in Hawaii. But they will compete with any scientifically put together ukulele with it's over engineered kasha style parabolic shaped bracing with epoxy glued carbon fibre patch and elevated fingerboard.... This stuff is not for me. A more sensible discussion would be why this stuff seems to work well for those who use it and why it doesn't for intuitive builders like me. I think you would be unlocking a real treasure house of knowledge if you could answer that one! I suspect you would be looking at other factors in overall build and construction that are common to us all for the probable answer to the question And we haven't even touched on the effect of gradual hardening of lacquer over time as it 'tightens' the instrument or the changing of the crystalline micro structure of the wood over time. What about the stiffness of the neck (as opposed to the ludicrous tapping of 'tonewood' necks I frequently see on YouTube) ? I am yet to be convinced that the science, though important and essential to good builds is the holy grail to good tone, projection and 'sound'. I am reluctant to say it because I don't believe in magic per se but there is a certain 'mojo' that some of us have that can only be described as a divinely bestowed gift. I hope I have it, I know some of you guys definitely have it

Personally, I don't measure deflections or use any scientific methods- but it is unequivocally better to understand more sophisticated methods of building. Guitar books all tell you things that no uke book tells you- simple 101 stuff like tuck your transverse bars and back braces into the linings.

My method of bracing/carving tops is to tap until i get a long ringing musical note, instead of a thud- not sure if thats scientific or intuitive or empirical intuitive science or just common sense???

I totally agree that there is no evidence to show that one way is better then the other- intuitive vs scientific method of building.

To be fair, i don't think most "scientific" luthiers (ie- ones who measure every splinter of wood) claim that their instruments are better then more intuitively built ones.

It is probably true that a scientific method produces more consistent results- (said again- it produces results that are either good or bad but are consistent).

While intuitive is, at the end of the day, a bit more cross your fingers when you string it up...no matter how good a luthier you are.

interesting reading , even for a non builder. I read down about his Sawstop table saw. didn't know anything like that existed. bet that could save quite a few fingers!

I think the issue is more to do with repeatability and consistency, rather than the quality of the sound. If you have a top that weighs so much and deflects so much and you know exactly how you braced it and do chladni tests on it etc, you can then get another top to behave in the exact same way, ensuring a consistent sound across all of your instruments. If someone buys a Somogyi guitar, they want it to sound like a Somogyi guitar, not like an Olsen or McKnight guitar for example.
Having said that, I think it has a lot more of a noticeable effect on guitars and larger instruments. Ukuleles aren't exactly meant to have a piano-like sound that sustains forever with lots of bass, so there's a lot more tolerance for what sounds good and what doesn't.

If you are looking for a completely androgynous sound use carbon fibre - total consistency. The whole beauty of using a living and dynamic organic material like wood is the nuances that you get because it is not uniform! The repeatability is only ever exact in the build aspect -as for the sound.. there are parameters and all that testing counts for nothing when one person 'likes' it and another is not so keen! As far as ukulele go, the primary focus for most people is volume unless you are buying a Chuck Moore; you are then thinking eye candy first

Pete Howlett said:

The whole beauty of using a living and dynamic organic material like wood is the nuances that you get because it is not uniform!

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I totally agree-

Yes of course there will always be variations, otherwise guitars would get boring. What I meant was the overall general qualities of the sound. If you talk to Trevor Gore (who wrote The book on the application of physics to guitar design) he will tell you that he can make a guitar out of any material and still make it sound like one of his guitars, with the qualities his customers would expect from them. To prove it, he made a guitar out of scrap wood from an old shed and it sounds excellent. He has taken the guess work out of the building process, so you can build a guitar to a 'sound goal' and have a good chance of hitting it, rather than simply building one and seeing how it turns out.
Of course, as I said before, there is less of an application to ukuleles, as they have less strict requirements in their tone and just need to be loud.

You can make a guitar sounding object but the the quality of the sound is a function of the wood you use. The G&G books does not change that. Also the science of guitar making mainly works at the lower register of the guitar. The higher up you go in frequency the more art or craft takes over rather than science. Not to say the books are not a valuable resource, there is a lot useful information in them especially for the newer builder. But the information in the books are just one way to skin a cat, it will work for some, some not so much.