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johnson430
12-18-2015, 10:35 AM
I recently discovered an online ad that had a refurbished Pono listed as "like new" but it is obviously a refurbished instrument bought from a Pono refurbishing store in Hawaii and is not a seconds.

My question is this:
How is a buyer going to know if they are getting a refurbished Pono or a genuine Pono that is not refurbished?

I know that "seconds" are supposed to be marked with a "2" but what about a refurbished instrument?

I am aware of a person selling refurbished Pono on the internet at their store in Hawaii.
These look just like any genuine Pono but are sold at a discount.
They are not labeled as seconds or identifiable as refurbs by the photos I have seen. (Yes, I saw the sound hole stickers, they are not labeled with a "2" like Pono seconds are)

So how do I know what I am buying from a member on UU or the fleamarket, or CL, or the Bay is offered as a "real" Pono. (Which is ironic to those that know what Pono means)

Will the serial number at the neck attachment on the inside of the body identify a refurbished instrument?
Should sellers post the serial numbers so that prospective buyers can be sure of the authenticity of their purchase?

I type this just as one of the possible Pono refurbs I have been watching is being relisted on The bay after it showed being sold.
The seller has 5 stars and one star is for selling the the exact instrument he just tried to sell here on the UU marketplace.
The seller was also found admitting that he had a factory "hook-up" in Hawaii on another site, selling the same instrument.

Interesting? ...I think so.


Thanks for any constructive input.
Johnson
A concerned Pono owner

UkerDanno
12-18-2015, 11:34 AM
You seem to be chasing that instrument/seller around...I wouldn't believe a word he says.

Rllink
12-18-2015, 11:57 AM
I'm sorry that I don't have an answer for your question. But another question would be, what does "refurbished" mean, and who refurbished it?

DownUpDave
12-18-2015, 12:01 PM
It is really, really, really simple........buy a new one from HMS. Next question :deadhorse:

JustinJ
12-18-2015, 12:12 PM
I think it's an important question Johnson430 has asked. If someone starts buying refurbished and reselling them on here, it's not fair to the others who purchased their instruments new and try to resell them. I would want to know if something was refurbished. I do not mind buying refurbished and do it often with electronics, especially electronics refurbished by the company that made the product. I know it's refurbished and is usually discounted appropriately for a refurbished item.

I would like to know what is the difference between a "second" and a refurbished . Is a refurbished a 2nd that has been fixed?

johnson430: This is off topic but you did the UU a service finding out about the seller in the marketplace. It's not fair to the rest of the group who are individuals trying to sell their one uke. I always thought of the marketplace as a place to buy or trade among the users of the forum, not as a business. Unfortunately some people try to get around this. With someone flooding the market with Ponos, it hurts the value of Ponos for resale.

Maybe we could have a rule that someone needs to be a contributing member for six months before posting for sale or trade in the marketplace. It's just a thought.

johnson430
12-18-2015, 12:28 PM
It is really, really, really simple........buy a new one from HMS. Next question :deadhorse:

Sorry Dave,
You missed the point of thread
See JustinJ's post #5 if you need clarification of why I started the thread.
This is an important topic for someone buying or selling a Pono.
Please keep your posts on topic.
Kindly,
Johnson

Now back on topic.
JustinJ. Thanks for backing me up on this. My thread was written to protect buyers and sellers from having any more issue with the refurbished Pono situation.
I hope there can be some kind of clear resolution on the matter.

PedalFreak
12-18-2015, 12:34 PM
From what I remember, the Pono B-Stocks have a black Sharpie dot on the label next to the model. Maybe contact Andrew, or one of the guys at theukulelesite, they'd let you know real quick :)

the flat tire
12-18-2015, 01:38 PM
I would call Pono.
I have John Kitakis' card if you want the number.
I know they sell factory seconds; instruments with blemishes. Check the label.
Mr. Kitakis might want to know if someone is trying to pass off instruments as 'factory refurbished' or selling instruments that have been 'refurbished.'

As far as I know, the ONLY place to get a factory 2nd Pono is from the shop.

buddhuu
12-18-2015, 02:31 PM
Sorry Dave,
You missed the point of thread
See JustinJ's post #5 if you need clarification of why I started the thread.
This is an important topic for someone buying or selling a Pono.
Please keep your posts on topic.
Kindly,
Johnson

Now back on topic.
JustinJ. Thanks for backing me up on this. My thread was written to protect buyers and sellers from having any more issue with the refurbished Pono situation.
I hope there can be some kind of clear resolution on the matter.

Dude, no doubt your reports and posts are well intentioned, and we appreciate the heads-ups you give us. However, you are not the forum police and you do not get to address your fellow members in this condescending manner. If you hadn't done so publicly then this post would not have needed to appear publicly.

Please. Chill. Out.

Thanks.

johnson430
12-18-2015, 03:08 PM
Dude, no doubt your reports and posts are well intentioned, and we appreciate the heads-ups you give us. However, you are not the forum police and you do not get to address your fellow members in this condescending manner. If you hadn't done so publicly then this post would not have needed to appear publicly.

Please. Chill. Out.

Thanks.

Sorry you feel that way Rick. Now that it is in the open.

Firstly, I did not mean anything condescending by my post and I am sorry if it comes off that way.
Secondly, I never claimed to be the forum police. I was just trying to keep things on topic.
I thought his post was not contributing to the thread and wanted him to understand why I posted this in the first place.
That is why I directed him to post #5.


I will do my best to not appear condescending in my posts in the future.

A very chill,
Johnson

AndrewKuker
12-18-2015, 04:25 PM
A customer sent me this link so I’ll clear things up real quick. “Refurbished" products have been returned to a manufacturer or vendor for various reasons, repaired from the manufacturer and resold. Pono does not do this. They never have.

If someone is getting a hold of Ponos, doing repairs on them, and then selling them as “like new”, that’s their prerogative, but they are simply “used”, because there is no refurbished Ponos.

igorthebarbarian
12-18-2015, 05:24 PM
A customer sent me this link so I’ll clear things up real quick. “Refurbished" products have been returned to a manufacturer or vendor for various reasons, repaired from the manufacturer and resold. Pono does not do this. They never have.

If someone is getting a hold of Ponos, doing repairs on them, and then selling them as “like new”, that’s their prerogative, but they are simply “used”, because there is no refurbished Ponos.

This is good to know. ^^^
If I were buying a Pono though, I'd just buy it from HMS. No worries with them.
If buying from another member I always want to know who/where they bought it from.

Rakelele
12-18-2015, 07:39 PM
Thanks for clearing this up, Andrew.

If someone is buying a "refurbished" Pono and is going to sell it at a higher price, as seems to be Johnson's concern, than I would think that it is that person's responsibility to disclose the origins of the instrument, not that of the original seller. If this information isn't provided in the first place, then a potential buyer should simply ask the person about it (which is a good thing to do with any purchase of a used item).

natchez
12-18-2015, 09:17 PM
I type this just as one of the possible Pono refurbs I have been watching is being relisted on The bay after it showed being sold. The seller has 5 stars and one star is for selling the the exact instrument he just tried to sell here on the UU marketplace.

Thanks for any constructive input.
Johnson
A concerned Pono owner

As a fellow Pono owner, I now have two here (an MT and an MCD, both bought from a UU member/seller and originally from HMS) with another coming Tuesday directly from HMS, I am as interested in maintaining my instruments' values as most. And, frankly, I am glad you have been following the Pono resale market closely. I like their instruments very much and find them to be very well made and excellent values, particularly on the resale market. And, yes folks need to be careful and do their due diligence when buying anything used.

However, in your post you state the cedar cutaway currently listed on the Bay appears to be the same as the one sold for which the seller had received positive feedback- i.e., a relisting. That implies that the instrument was either returned or possibly some collusion occurred. I was curious about this, so I took a very careful look. To be fair to the former member, the cedar cutaway that sold on the Bay and resulted in the positive feedback rating seems to have been purchased by the seller from rappsy, posted here: http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?114131-F-S-PONO-ATDC-C-Cedar-Top-Acacia-Tenor-w-Cutaway&highlight=rappsy It has black tuning buttons with Pono marked sealed-gear tuners, and a somewhat different wood pattern than the cedar cutaway currently listed by the seller on the Bay, which has amber tuner buttons and unmarked sealed tuners. So, unless the seller got the uke back, changed out the tuners and then relisted it, it is unlikely they are the same instrument. The wood patterns are similar, but at least to my old eyes they do not seem identical. The Pono logo also looks a little different to me.

So, not to belabor the point- thanks for keeping your eyes open for us, but it may be best to aim before you shoot.

buddhuu
12-18-2015, 11:02 PM
Unfortunately this isn't a new issue. The matter of seconds and refurbished ukes and disclosure thereof has cropped up several times over the years. I seem to recall a previous purveyor getting banned a couple of years back.

While it's quite possible for someone to unknowingly buy one of these instruments and thus to sell it later without disclosing, clearly that excuse becomes implausible with multiple ukuleles.

Where there is strong indication of dishonest dealing, or attempts to deceive the membership, the perpetrator will obviously be banned permanently.

A Google search should display previous discussions about this.

mm stan
12-19-2015, 01:42 AM
Unfortunately this isn't a new issue. The matter of seconds and refurbished ukes and disclosure thereof has cropped up several times over the years. I seem to recall a previous purveyor getting banned a couple of years back.

While it's quite possible for someone to unknowingly buy one of these instruments and thus to sell it later without disclosing, clearly that excuse becomes implausible with multiple ukuleles.

Where there is strong indication of dishonest dealing, or attempts to deceive the membership, the perpetrator will obviously be banned permanently.

A Google search should display previous discussions about this.
Aloha Rick,
Maybe its me, someone buys ponos or any uke and refurbishes them? Who cares.. he cannot sell a used uke for more
Refurbished or not. The sale is between the seller and buyer, of course you have bad sellers, what is this post supposed
To accomplish? So you make people aware that they're refurbished ukes out.. is this supposed to stop it.
Come on now. So you address the seller, he changes his name then what... geez

johnson430
12-19-2015, 03:44 AM
Thanks for the clarification on the ebay listing. I see the difference in the tuners now.
Regardless of that mix up, that seller is an a number 1 jerk, IMHO.
He was attempting to dupe other UU members. That just got my goat.



As a fellow Pono owner, I now have two here (an MT and an MCD, both bought from a UU member/seller and originally from HMS) with another coming Tuesday directly from HMS, I am as interested in maintaining my instruments' values as most. And, frankly, I am glad you have been following the Pono resale market closely. I like their instruments very much and find them to be very well made and excellent values, particularly on the resale market. And, yes folks need to be careful and do their due diligence when buying anything used.

However, in your post you state the cedar cutaway currently listed on the Bay appears to be the same as the one sold for which the seller had received positive feedback- i.e., a relisting. That implies that the instrument was either returned or possibly some collusion occurred. I was curious about this, so I took a very careful look. To be fair to the former member, the cedar cutaway that sold on the Bay and resulted in the positive feedback rating seems to have been purchased by the seller from rappsy, posted here: http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?114131-F-S-PONO-ATDC-C-Cedar-Top-Acacia-Tenor-w-Cutaway&highlight=rappsy It has black tuning buttons with Pono marked sealed-gear tuners, and a somewhat different wood pattern than the cedar cutaway currently listed by the seller on the Bay, which has amber tuner buttons and unmarked sealed tuners. So, unless the seller got the uke back, changed out the tuners and then relisted it, it is unlikely they are the same instrument. The wood patterns are similar, but at least to my old eyes they do not seem identical. The Pono logo also looks a little different to me.

So, not to belabor the point- thanks for keeping your eyes open for us, but it may be best to aim before you shoot.

johnson430
12-19-2015, 04:19 AM
A customer sent me this link so I’ll clear things up real quick. “Refurbished" products have been returned to a manufacturer or vendor for various reasons, repaired from the manufacturer and resold. Pono does not do this. They never have.

If someone is getting a hold of Ponos, doing repairs on them, and then selling them as “like new”, that’s their prerogative, but they are simply “used”, because there is no refurbished Ponos.

Andrew,
Thank for this, but I have one concern.
The seller of the ukes in question stated he had a "factory hook-up". If that is the case, could someone have access to a Pono instrument that didn't pass all QA checks before leaving the Hawaii factory?
I am under the impression that all Pono are finished in Hawaii. Are the final QA tests done in Hawaii or Indonesia?
If that is the case, and there is an 'inside man' then in theory these ukes could make it out of the warehouse before being identified as subpar. That is my concern.
Is there a possibility of this happening?
Also, how far does a serial number track a Pono?
Will it identify the dealer it was sent to?
Thanks for your input,
Johnson

DownUpDave
12-19-2015, 05:52 AM
Andrew,
Thank for this, but I have one concern.
The seller of the ukes in question stated he had a "factory hook-up". If that is the case, could someone have access to a Pono instrument that didn't pass all QA checks before leaving the Hawaii factory?
I am under the impression that all Pono are finished in Hawaii. Are the final QA tests done in Hawaii or Indonesia?
If that is the case, and there is an 'inside man' then in theory these ukes could make it out of the warehouse before being identified as subpar. That is my concern.
Is there a possibility of this happening?
Also, how far does a serial number track a Pono?
Will it identify the dealer it was sent to?
Thanks for your input,
Johnson


I might get my hand slapped by the mods for these comments. ............

Johnson you are doing more harm than good. I have no idea why you are on this crusade but you are doing nothing but darkening Ponos good name. It looks like you have an agenda that is not what you are trying to make it appear to be. Either that or you just don't get it. Asking Andrew if there is a dishonest thief working for Pono is insulting. It would be the same as me asking you publicly if your wife sleeps around and cheats on you.

You always seem to be looking for wrong doing and poking in your nose in other peoples business. Not sure why this is but it is getting tiresome. Lighten up and add something uplifting to this website. Post a video of a song performance, I've heard you play and you're good.

photoshooter
12-19-2015, 07:15 AM
I have a tendency to oversimplify things but from my perspective...
If I'm buying from an authorized Pono dealer the uke is new. If I'm buying from anyone else it's not new.
Refurbished, pre-loved etc etc are all nice terms but I lump them into the larger "not new" category.

If I'm buying from a dealer I expect to pay retail and I expect a certain level of service and security that comes at that price point.
If I'm buying from an individual I expect a cost savings. The amount of that cost savings will determine whether or not I'm comfortable foregoing the service and security I get from a dealer.
Obvious factors such as is the person a known contributor to the forum also factor in to the decision.

Maybe oversimplified but I subscribe to the low-stress lifestyle and this helps keep it that way.

Rakelele
12-19-2015, 09:46 AM
Johnson, instead of shooting into the dark, you should do better research. All the answers to your questions are out in the open, they can easily be found on the internet, most of them even with a little browsing through UU.

JustinJ
12-19-2015, 09:52 AM
The main points I've taken away from this thread

1, Pono does not sell refurbished

2. Refurbished is another word for used and not anyway associated with Pono

3. Pono has seconds that are marked with a 2

4. Any Pono sold on here will be a used uke, no matter what is stated

Johnson430: There may not be someone at Pono but the hookup could be with an actual store, not at the factory. I'm not saying this as a fact but it's seem more likely that a store could get rid of their overstock this way by selling it in the marketplace through a user. This is just a suggestion and not an implication of anyone.

.

buddhuu
12-19-2015, 10:01 AM
Aloha Rick,
Maybe its me, someone buys ponos or any uke and refurbishes them? Who cares.. he cannot sell a used uke for more
Refurbished or not. The sale is between the seller and buyer, of course you have bad sellers, what is this post supposed
To accomplish? So you make people aware that they're refurbished ukes out.. is this supposed to stop it.
Come on now. So you address the seller, he changes his name then what... geez

I see no problem with refurbished ukes or factory seconds, Stan. Some companies allow them to be sold, some don't. Personally I would certainly consider buying one if it meant I got a good player discounted due to a minor cosmetic flaw or not being pristine new. Problems arise when dodgy sellers fail to disclose the true nature of the item they're selling. It does happen. The occasional dishonest seller is the problem, not the seconds or refurbs.

Edit for clarification: To me, refurbished means more than just used. It implies issues that needed to be corrected before sale. If that were the case, disclosure would seem appropriate.

mm stan
12-19-2015, 11:54 AM
I see no problem with refurbished ukes or factory seconds, Stan. Some companies allow them to be sold, some don't. Personally I would certainly consider buying one if it meant I got a good player discounted due to a minor cosmetic flaw or not being pristine new. Problems arise when dodgy sellers fail to disclose the true nature of the item they're selling. It does happen. The occasional dishonest seller is the problem, not the seconds or refurbs.

Edit for clarification: To me, refurbished means more than just used. It implies issues that needed to be corrected before sale. If that were the case, disclosure would seem appropriate.
I agree rick, is see no issue with used or refurnbished ukes, as you say disclosure is a must in all sales, not only refurbished ukes. I would buy a refurbished uke knowing there is a discount, a used uke refurbished or not will
Lose value. Just say if it was refurbished to mske it better, isnt that a plus? I personally dont think any uke under
1000 dollars is worth refurbishing as you wont get your money back.. the quality in the job is a factor too
Unless the uke has sentimental value or its a name brand like martin or kamaka i would not refurbish it.
Isnt it just most of the time asthetics anyways and doesnt affect the tone or playability. Any uke sold in the market used
May not have full disclosure for whatever reasons.. hell youre buying a used uke..you take the risks for a better
Price. If a new uke valued at 800, was refurbished and sold for 600, i would just buy a new one..buyer beware
On the other hand, if one sold for 400, i might consider it.

Bill1
12-19-2015, 12:11 PM
Refurbished = used goods returned to original new specs.
The only rule or guidance changes I would suggest for the marketplace is a "mind your own business" note. If you can't afford the item, don't comment. If you have no intention of buying, don't comment. If you want to tell a buddy about the deal send them a link. If you want to write a review, put it on the reviews page. Otherwise enjoy the photos, enjoy watching the deal happen, but otherwise mind your own business.
In the event that there is something unethical or dishonest, make a report to the moderators.
December 2015 - Season of the Ponos.

mm stan
12-19-2015, 12:21 PM
Aloha Bill, good thoughts... on your comment myob
Another reason refurbished by who? Anyone can use that term without knowledge of factory specs. Most times they dont or may not. isnt factory specs supposed to be a business secret. In other words, when seeing refurbished, id just beware :)

johnson430
12-19-2015, 01:00 PM
I might get my hand slapped by the mods for these comments. ............

Johnson you are doing more harm than good. I have no idea why you are on this crusade but you are doing nothing but darkening Ponos good name. It looks like you have an agenda that is not what you are trying to make it appear to be. Either that or you just don't get it. Asking Andrew if there is a dishonest thief working for Pono is insulting. It would be the same as me asking you publicly if your wife sleeps around and cheats on you.

You always seem to be looking for wrong doing and poking in your nose in other peoples business. Not sure why this is but it is getting tiresome. Lighten up and add something uplifting to this website. Post a video of a song performance, I've heard you play and you're good.


Wow!
Honestly, going at my family? And what is worse, you went at my family on a misunderstanding.
Go back and read what i said, I was paraphrasing a seller, those were not my words. I never stated what you implied.
Shame on you for bringing my wife into this.

I love Pono. And I was not accusing anyone of theft.

I LOVE PONO!!!!!!
I own two and they are a f'ing amazing.
Read my posts. I always speak highly of my Pono and their great service. Always.

This is not about Pono. This is about the quality and origin of used instruments on the market. Period.
My question is simple:
Can a serial number track a Pono to a dealer?
That is my only question.

You all that think I have a hidden agenda are wrong. I just want to know if there is a way to track a used a Pono, at least to a known dealer.
Is that possible?
I think that is a very simple question to answer.

All this other jabbering about my intentions needs to stop.
Again, I have no ill intentions toward Pono or their employees or the owner.
Quite the contrary. I think they are a great company.
My questions stems from a seller in Boston who claimed something that seemed fishy to me and wanted to find the answers to my questions. Just like any other member who seeks answers to their questions I came here to ask. Sorry if you feel this is negative or controversial.
I have only come seeking answers.

Lastly,
Thanks for the nice compliment about my playing.

Happy holidays,
Johnson

deschutestrout
12-19-2015, 01:33 PM
Wow!

All this other jabbering about my intentions needs to stop.


Then, stop. If you can't communicate on this forum without ruffling many, many feathers ... you may want to look more closely at what you post. Just sayin'. Play your ukes, learn some new tunes.

johnson430
12-19-2015, 02:04 PM
Then, stop. If you can't communicate on this forum without ruffling many, many feathers ... you may want to look more closely at what you post. Just sayin'. Play your ukes, learn some new tunes.

Seems like only a few feathers are ruffled from the posts.
And you have missed the point again.
And you cherry-picked my words.
I was clarifying why I posted this thread in the first place. But I have been misquoted on this thread more than once.
Please read all of a post in the future.

And I play my ukes to my liking. Perhaps you should take your own advice and not tell me how to spend my time.
Happy holidays,
Johnson

buddhuu
12-19-2015, 11:35 PM
Ok, this one seems to have run out of useful, polite mileage.

Say goodnight, Gracie.