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DownUpDave
01-10-2016, 02:53 AM
SPOILER ALERT****** RESULTS ARE ON POST #31

This is such a great community and forum. Thanks to Jim Hanks we were made aware of the new iRig acoustic clip on mic. So I got one for Christmas and I was thrilled until I discovered the app "Amplitude Acoustic" was for IOS only. So I sent out a cry for help and along come Booli with a big helping hand......one he is justly famous for.

So as a pay back I thought I would do a recording sample for you......with a twist. First off the app I am using is just an audio recorder so this is clean and raw, no effects. The device used is just my Samsung Galaxy S4 phone. The twist is this is a back to back blind mic test.

One mic is the iRig the other is a Zoom Hn2, I have recorded three seperate pieces. I play one piece through mic A, hit pause unplug mic A plug in mic B then play the same piece. This way you hear each piece back to back through the different mics.

See which one you like and see if you can guess which one is which. After a day or two I will reveal which one is the iRig. I will say it is an excellent product and I glad I figured out how to use it, was stupid simple really

Sorry having trouble downloading. Nothing yet, will keep trying. This is a wav file 13.68MB. I have tried loading it through Box, Drop Box, Soundcloud and other and I keep getting the message "invalid file". Anybody got any ideas.

*****SAMPLE IS UP ON POST #4*******

kohanmike
01-10-2016, 07:33 AM
Convert it to .mp3, that's what I do for all the m4p files I record with my Mac, iPhone, iPad. You can use Audacity for that on Windows if I'm not mistaken.

Booli
01-10-2016, 08:51 AM
Sorry having trouble downloading. Nothing yet, will keep trying. This is a wav file 13.68MB. I have tried loading it through Box, Drop Box, Soundcloud and other and I keep getting the message "invalid file". Anybody got any ideas.

If the WAV file has more than one period in it's filename, or anything other than letters and numbers (no quotes or !@#$%^&*(+=) characters), or more than one consecutive blank space between the words of the filename, it will choke most programs that are not perfectly compatible with 'long filenames'.

Could also be the web uploader for those various services also choking on 'invalid characters' in the filename.

Try renaming the WAV file to something simple like:

micsoundtest.wav

and then retry the upload and see if that works.

Also, thanks for doing this :), as I just haven't got the time yet to do a proper audio sample with my own iRig Acoustic vs. my other recording equipment.

Jim Hanks
01-10-2016, 01:10 PM
Ok,here we go folks. Hopefully the SoundCloud compression doesn't do enough to invalidate the comparison:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-hanks/downupdave-irig-vs-zoom-h2n

photoshooter
01-10-2016, 01:19 PM
Thanks very much for doing this Dave.
The sound samples all sound great. I think I like mic A in each set better but it's close.
If I had to guess I'd say mic B is the iRig.


Mike

Jim Hanks
01-10-2016, 01:21 PM
I'm only listening on my iPad speaker so Im not going to make my guess yet but I am leaning one way already.

How did you record the Zoom into the Galaxy? Line out into headphone jack?

DownUpDave
01-10-2016, 01:37 PM
Ok,here we go folks. Hopefully the SoundCloud compression doesn't do enough to invalidate the comparison:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-hanks/downupdave-irig-vs-zoom-h2n

Thanks so much for helping me out with this Jim, you're the best. The sound has not changed at all compared to my original recording, good job.

To answer your question regarding hooking up the Zoom Hn2 to the Galaxy S4 phone. I used a 1/8" male to male cable from the Zoom line out into the headphone jack in the Galaxy, the Zoom then acts as an external mic.

Booli
01-10-2016, 01:40 PM
If I had to guess I'd say mic B is the iRig.

I agree. As in the second time each song is played. Mic A seems to have more 'air', but Mic B seems to have a warmer tone, which I would attribute to the iRig Acoustic being much closer to the sound source and picking up the lower frequencies better since it is inside the soundhole.

This is also a good demonstration of 'proximity effect' - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_effect_%28audio%29 for full details, but the summary is "The proximity effect in audio is an increase in bass or low frequency response when a sound source is close to a microphone."

So I am guessing that DownUpDave emailed his WAV file to Jim, and Jim is hosting it on his SoundCloud due to the hurdles DownUpDave had to upload the file previously? If so, then kudos and huge brownie points to Jim for being kind enough to take the time and to get this up for us to hear. YAY!

Thanks to both Dave and Jim! :) :music:

Jim Hanks
01-10-2016, 02:05 PM
No trouble. Glad to help.

I'm still on iPad with no headphones, but I'll go ahead with what I was thinking since it is the opposite of what you're thinking - so one of us is gonna get schooled. :o

I was thinking mic B is the Zoom, sounding warmer due to more room sound and irig/mic A getting more of the direct string attack.

Booli
01-10-2016, 02:26 PM
... but I'll go ahead with what I was thinking since it is the opposite of what you're thinking - so one of us is gonna get schooled. :o

Either way, we will all learn something, so there is definitely value in such an experiment as this. :)

And what is with that random 'drums & bass' techno track that gets auto-played? (Don't worry, I know it's not your song, Jim)

I was like pissed off because I was all mellowed out with the uke sound, and then this skippy techno beat comes on a just kills the mood - LOL.

Mind you, I like certain electronic music, but the segue does NOT work, and SoundCloud needs to improve the algorithms in their suggestion 'engine' for 'related' music...

I need some ear-bleach now. Time for some Eine Kleine Nachtmusik! :old: LOL.

Ukulele Eddie
01-10-2016, 02:36 PM
Fun Stuff, DownUpDave. The B recording is definitely "warmer" to my ear. I'd be interested to know:

1. How far was the Zoom from the sound hole?
2. Did you have the Zoom set on XY?

DownUpDave
01-10-2016, 03:03 PM
Fun Stuff, DownUpDave. The B recording is definitely "warmer" to my ear. I'd be interested to know:

1. How far was the Zoom from the sound hole?
2. Did you have the Zoom set on XY?


Very astute questions Eddie. Both those factors do influence the character of the recorded sound. I messed around and settled on about 2ft from the sound hole and mic set on 4ch, thought that sounded the best.

Here is more food for thought. I used my LfdM with D shaped sound hole (see pictures) this created an issue. If I place the mic on the treble side I have issues when I rest my anchor finger while picking. I recorded it with the mic on the bass side so it was out of the way. Then I thought maybe it would be too bassy. I recorded in both positions and could not hear a difference.

8725687257

Ukulele Eddie
01-10-2016, 03:31 PM
Very astute questions Eddie. Both those factors do influence the character of the recorded sound. I messed around and settled on about 3 ft from the sound hole and mic set on 4ch, thought that sounded the best.

Given that, then I would guess A is the iRig.

I have zero recording experience except for a couple of sound samples using my Zoom, but two very experienced musician friends showed me how to position the Zoom and they both had me position it about 8-10 inches from the sound hole and set it on X/Y. I defer to Messrs. Hanks, Booli and others and look forward to their thoughts, but I'd love to hear it again with the Zoom much closer (and whatever mode they recommend).

Fun thread, Dave, and a chance for lots of us to learn!

DownUpDave
01-10-2016, 03:42 PM
Here the thing Eddie I had it set on XY to begin with and closer which I agree is usually the best set up. But it did sound best to me set up the way I did it??? It was too DIFFERENT sounding than the iRig set up at XY and closer. So I tried to get them to sound a little more similar......right or wrong. I don't have much recording experience either.

bnolsen
01-11-2016, 05:17 AM
I'm not too keen on using the h2n for close in micing. Seems to be a better "area" mic and I think good at recording grand piano when placed above the curve. I think double miccing, one close pointing at the soundhole, another pointed at the fretboard, seems to provide the nicest sound.

sam13
01-11-2016, 11:32 AM
I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread ... but I liked:
Pattern 1: First
Pattern 2: Second
Pattern 3: First

Not sure what it means ... just liked what I heard in those better.

DownUpDave
01-11-2016, 12:38 PM
I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread ... but I liked:
Pattern 1: First
Pattern 2: Second
Pattern 3: First

Not sure what it means ... just liked what I heard in those better.

Ok your a friend and you did use a disclaimer.......BUT there are only two mics. A and B so try to guess which one of those is the iRig.There is no third choice......see what I gotta deal with Eddie.:biglaugh:

Booli
01-12-2016, 01:51 AM
... I used my LfdM with D shaped sound hole (see pictures) this created an issue. If I place the mic on the treble side I have issues when I rest my anchor finger while picking. I recorded it with the mic on the bass side so it was out of the way. Then I thought maybe it would be too bassy. I recorded in both positions and could not hear a difference.

8725687257

I tried both positions as well and found similar results, i.e., no emphasis of treble or bass, despite the mounting position, which tells me that the MEMS mic element inside is either a truly an omnidirectional mic, or acts as a PZM mic (http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/microphones/pzm.html) (& more info (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_microphone)) with how it is mounted, meaning that it is primarily picking up the sound reflected from the INSIDE of the soundboard, as opposed to the sound bouncing off the inside of the back of the instrument...I could be wrong though since I have not yet taken mine apart to see exactly which direction the mic element is facing.

DownUpDave
01-12-2016, 11:39 AM
I tried both positions as well and found similar results, i.e., no emphasis of treble or bass, despite the mounting position, which tells me that the MEMS mic element inside is either a truly an omnidirectional mic, or acts as a PZM mic (http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/microphones/pzm.html) (& more info (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_microphone)) with how it is mounted, meaning that it is primarily picking up the sound reflected from the INSIDE of the soundboard, as opposed to the sound bouncing off the inside of the back of the instrument...I could be wrong though since I have not yet taken mine apart to see exactly which direction the mic element is facing.

Thanks for keeps us informed. Will be cool when you "take it apart" , love doing the mad scientist thing as well. Use to:-)make my mom crazy when I was a kid.

Booli
01-12-2016, 12:15 PM
Thanks for keeps us informed. Will be cool when you "take it apart" , love doing the mad scientist thing as well. Use to:-)make my mom crazy when I was a kid.

Yes, I plan to do a full teardown with pictures. Just need to carve out some time. This week is very busy.

There is a Hacker saying, and this is Hacker in the classic 1970's 'hardware hacker' sense whereby Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak created the first Apple computers in a garage, that is: "You don't own your device unless you can open it / take it apart."

I'd say that about 85% of my learning how things work is by taking them apart, and also how I taught myself about electronics, since sometimes taking things apart breaks them, and then I can learn how to repair them (which was my very first motivation for learning how to use a soldering iron and a multimeter).

The true fun is when there are no schematics, datasheet or other technical reference available, and you get to create your own by probing circuits with a logic tester, and hopefully can avoid creating that fatal wisp of white smoke while doing so.

The big difference now is that I have to wear one of these OptiVisor things in addition to eyeglasses since all the surface-mount electronics are so tiny. :old:

http://www.jewelrysupply.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/optivisor-magnifier.jpg&maxx=300&maxy=0

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Tools_for_Maintenance/OptiVISOR_Headband_Magnifier.html

But the one I have is a cheap copy that I got at a flea market like 20 yrs ago for $8.

SoloRule
01-13-2016, 02:51 AM
A is Warmer and realistic ( that's your first Here Comes The Sun)
B is too electronic sounding to my ears
Its hard to judge when you are using Sofia
That girl sounds good even when it's played through a toy mic
BTW I used my new Bose headphones to listen !

Rakelele
01-13-2016, 03:13 AM
Very interesting comparison, thanks Dave! I really like the "scientific" approach of a back to back blind test.

My own knowledge encompasses ukes much more than mics -- the only thing I could tell for sure was that you were playing an LFdM. Very nice sound, and lovely playing.

As for the mics: I would describe the first one as being cleaner and dryer, probably closer to what you really hear from the instrument, while the second one seems to add some sort of reverb or hall. I hear it fuller and bassier. From this observation, I would guess that the second one could be the cheaper mic (or less specialized, I should say), because I tend to think that the more expensive one would aim at "true" sound, while random electronics, on the other hand, are often designed to virtually "enhance" their signals. Also, the cheaper/more general mic had to be placed further away from the source, which may have added to the "hall" effect. But again, I know nothing of recording and such...!

DownUpDave
01-13-2016, 05:09 AM
Very interesting comparison, thanks Dave! I really like the "scientific" approach of a back to back blind test.

My own knowledge encompasses ukes much more than mics -- the only thing I could tell for sure was that you were playing an LFdM. Very nice sound, and lovely playing.

As for the mics: I would describe the first one as being cleaner and dryer, probably closer to what you really hear from the instrument, while the second one seems to add some sort of reverb or hall. I hear it fuller and bassier. From this observation, I would guess that the second one could be the cheaper mic (or less specialized, I should say), because I tend to think that the more expensive one would aim at "true" sound, while random electronics, on the other hand, are often designed to virtually "enhance" their signals. Also, the cheaper/more general mic had to be placed further away from the source, which may have added to the "hall" effect. But again, I know nothing of recording and such...!

I know you have a good ear Rainer so I am very glad you contributed. To clarify your points the iRig is "cheaper" and clips onto the sound hole. The Zoom Hn2 is about three times the price, is free standing and has 4 different mic configurations to choice from.

Hope is defines the two mics enough to help with your "guess". Feel free to change it and make any relevent comments if needed.

DownUpDave
01-13-2016, 05:15 AM
A is Warmer and realistic ( that's your first Here Comes The Sun)
B is too electronic sounding to my ears
Its hard to judge when you are using Sofia
That girl sounds good even when it's played through a toy mic
BTW I used my new Bose headphones to listen !


Neither one of the mics nor my playing do Sofia justice.

Bose headphone...........oh I now have headphone envy :drool:

Rakelele
01-13-2016, 06:18 AM
See, I told you I knew nothing about mics (or their prices)! Now that you've explained, I think I might have had it backwards... :uhoh: I'm sticking with the second mic sounding fuller and somewhat "enhanced", though. :o

Croaky Keith
01-13-2016, 08:26 AM
First recording sounded more mellow than the second, which has an ear piercing sharp ring to it, I would feel happier with the first mic.

Booli
01-13-2016, 09:52 AM
Just to be clear, for the folks not familiar with this exact specific equipment, the sound sample from this thread is a comparison of the Zoom H2N, which is this:

https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/handy-recorder/h2n-handy-recorder
https://www.zoom.co.jp/sites/default/files/styles/png_to_jpg/public/products/hero-image/leadImage_h2n.png?itok=Xi5YxcSG
https://www.zoom.co.jp/sites/default/files/h2n_inputs-outputs_2.png
vs. the *NEW* IK Multimedia iRig Acoustic MEMS microphone, which is this:

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigacoustic/
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/joomla/images/ik_images/product_page/irigacoustic/1.0/big/irigacoustic_draw_section_02.gifhttp://www.ikmultimedia.com/joomla/images/ik_images/product_page/irigacoustic/1.0/big/irigacoustic_0U6A4975_mix.jpg

Doc_J
01-13-2016, 02:07 PM
Cool comparison Dave. Just heard the sound file. Mic "B" (iRig?) sounds more like a pickup, really clear and loud, definitely nearest to the strings. Mic "A" (zoom H2N?) sounds more at a distance, but close to the uke.

Jim Hanks
01-13-2016, 02:09 PM
So when is the reveal? (Edit: uh-oh, Doc and Booli are both against me. I'm sunk. :eek: )

Booli
01-13-2016, 02:30 PM
So when is the reveal? (Edit: uh-oh, Doc and Booli are both against me. I'm sunk. :eek: )

Ha Ha & LOL. I dont even remember any more which I chose or what they sound like. I need to listen again. :)

Forest for the trees.......la la la la. Yes, I am deep down the rabbit hole now. :music:

DownUpDave
01-13-2016, 02:47 PM
Ok time for the big reveal. Thanks to those that helped me out and those that joined in the fun and cast their vote.

Mic A was the Zoom

Mic B was the iRig

A few personal comments. My LfdM is very resonant and the iRig seems to pick up on that a little too much. I have used the iRig on some of my other instruments and it is a little more natural sounding on those instruments, especially reentrant tuning. The Zoom with its different mic configurations does record a more natural truer sound sample

The iRig is well designed, thought out, made and executed for all of $50.00. With the ablity to swap from one instrument to the next and to plug into a powered speaker or amp it does a lot for a little price.

Hopefully Booli gets the time to do a PROPER review as I am a neophyte when it comes to recording or the technologies associated with it.

Camsuke
01-13-2016, 02:54 PM
Comparisons aside, I am very impressed with the quality of the recordings. The time, effort and skill you have put into these sound samples will be of great benefit to many, well done Dave and thanks for sharing.

DownUpDave
01-13-2016, 03:49 PM
Comparisons aside, I am very impressed with the quality of the recordings. The time, effort and skill you have put into these sound samples will be of great benefit to many, well done Dave and thanks for sharing.

Jeez thanks so much Campbell, coming from you that means an awful lot. Your stuff is always great and I truly get inspired listening to it.

Jim Hanks
01-13-2016, 03:58 PM
I am very impressed with the quality of the recordings.
Agree. Both recordings would be very useable in my "studio". I'm probably gonna have to get the iRig as much for the swappability as the sound quality itself. (Still bummed about the crosstalk though.)

Fascinating that what I thought was room reverb was actually resonance inside the uke body itself. :-o

Booli
01-14-2016, 03:37 AM
...Thanks to those that helped me out and those that joined in the fun and cast their vote...

Hopefully Booli gets the time to do a PROPER review as I am a neophyte when it comes to recording or the technologies associated with it.

Thanks again Dave for doing this now. Neophyte or not, you should give yourself more credit for going from 'zero' to this demo. You're a fast learner, and it seems you have a knack for audio tech even if you do not realize it yet. Natural curiosity is the best motivator. :)


Agree. Both recordings would be very useable in my "studio". I'm probably gonna have to get the iRig as much for the swappability as the sound quality itself. (Still bummed about the crosstalk though.)

Yes, I agree. I would be remiss without once again giving thanks and kudos to you, Jim, for your helping Dave to get the WAV file online for all of us. I also appreciate your opinions on recording tech, ukes and music in general.

I am glad for the discussions, since I always learn something. :) Good stuff here!

rappsy
01-14-2016, 01:56 PM
I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread ... but I liked:
Pattern 1: First
Pattern 2: Second
Pattern 3: First

Not sure what it means ... just liked what I heard in those better.

I'm a little late to the party, but I felt the same way as Simon. 1,2 1, so 2 out of 3 for Mic A.

Didn't know which was which as I don't know too much about recording, but after hearing this and now knowing the answer, I like the Zoom.

xommen
01-21-2016, 09:29 AM
Apple released some really nice software today the will work really nice with the iRig I guess. It's called Music Memos, everyone with an iOS device should probably check it out ;). You can just record singing and playing, and it will add drums and or bass if you want to. Plus it shows you the chords it thinks you used.

librainian
01-21-2016, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the heads up. The app looks interesting. I couldn't find any mention of it supporting core audio devices like my microphone. i assume it does since it's Apple, but if you can confirm that...

Jim Hanks
01-21-2016, 01:36 PM
It's free so just get it and try it. It requires iOS 9.1 though and my old devices are still on 7 and 8 so I'm out of luck. I've been using Audioshare and even Evernote and the Voice Memo app to capture quick ideas but looks like Music Memos does a lot more.

xommen
01-22-2016, 01:59 AM
Thanks for the heads up. The app looks interesting. I couldn't find any mention of it supporting core audio devices like my microphone. i assume it does since it's Apple, but if you can confirm that...

I tested both my iCon microphone (which is connected to the headphone port) and a USB microphone (a Logitech that you get with a lot of consoles like the Wii) via a camera connection kit to my lightning port. They both worked as expected.
So I'm assuming any recording device will work. Fun thing is you can export the result to garageband on iOS or Mac (just the latest versions but still good fun).

Booli
01-18-2017, 04:25 PM
Anyone still on this thread might be interested in the just-released and newest model iRig, which I posted about with photos and links over here:

http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?125196-NEW-iRig-Acoustic-Stage-99