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Mim
01-24-2016, 10:33 AM
I went by MiSi to ask about stocking the Acoustic Trio and they literally pulled this out of their pocket...

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/MimsUkes/0124161135b.jpg

The new Mi-Si Air!!!! Notice the lack of wire!

Here is the write up:

Ok...MiSi Air ... "Do you have a strap button on your ukulele. If your answer is yes, then your instrument could be easily amplified with MiSi Air. The new amplification system for guitars and ukuleles based on MEMS microphone technology. Neither undersaddle nor soundboard transducers are involved. And that means no holes, no glue, no saddle preparation, and no balance problems. And no piezo distortions. Yes it is battery free like the rest of MiSis product line. Powering up the MiSi Air for 60seconds with the MiSi charger will provide you with 14 hours of performance time."

Whaaaat? I am so excited! I got to try it out, but it was on a Nalu with heavy gauge T2s in a loud loud percussion room, so it was hard to totally get a feel, but from what I could hear it sounded great and they said it does not have the feedback issues that a lot of soundboard mics have! I hope to be offering these soon for retail and for installation.

Now... It gets even more interesting! There is also he Acoustic Trio Air! Whaaaaat? It combines the best of both words. Here is a shortened write up:

It will be the under saddle pickup of the Acoustic Trio with the MEMS microphone technology of the air. So you get both. The balance is controlled by a sound hole mounted Pan and Volume pontetiometers. So you get the vibrations of the body and the air and of course is battery free. A 60 second charge will give it 8 hours of performance.


I am hoping the sound is what I want. But it being from MiSi gives me a lot of hope that the Air will indeed be what it is cracked up to be. They should be available in a couple months and I will install it in my Breedlove and let y'all know!

Here are some pictures of what it looks like on its own. No wire to anchor, no saddle to balance, no saddle to sand down, no bridge holes, just a quarter end pin jack... Yes!!!! Less fuss, hopefully a true instrument sound, and less parts to shift and buzz. Happy happy hopeful Mim!

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/MimsUkes/image.jpeg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/MimsUkes/image_1.jpeg

spookelele
01-24-2016, 11:04 AM
That is exciting!

Brad Bordessa
01-24-2016, 11:57 AM
Highlight of NAMM so far for me. Can't wait to hear how it sounds.

Doc_J
01-24-2016, 01:09 PM
But I assume there's another PCB + battery at the pickup? Hmm? 2 batteries?

Jim Hanks
01-24-2016, 01:20 PM
Ha! There's my "iRig Acoustic Pro" that IK shoulda made. :rolleyes:

M3Ukulele
01-24-2016, 02:50 PM
MISI Air looks cool. Hope it sound good and is priced OK. I've looked into sound hole miss that extend off a end pin jack before and they are expensive and require a 9V battery. Then you have to positions the mic via a good neck inside for optimal sound. Hope the MISI Air is as simple as shown. If sound is good, this could be a game changer.

Interested in the combined package of MISI AIR with additional UST but will wait for reports to explain this and hear the samples.

Thanks for posting MIM

spookelele
01-24-2016, 02:56 PM
What I'd like to see......
Is a bluetooth mems mic that just clips on the inside of the soundhole.

Then either marry it to a phone, computer, or... a receiver that has a 1/4" jack.

Sort of like.. clipping a BT headset to the uke.
Seems like something that shouldn't be a huge jump from just a BT headset.

hollisdwyer
01-24-2016, 03:01 PM
I have favoured MiSi's in all the Ukes I have had built recently. If this proves to be as good as the MiSi Trio and is released before August (when my next build starts), I'll ask for one to be installed. Less is more.

spongeuke
01-24-2016, 03:07 PM
I hope its the elegant solution to plugging in my Bass-Bari. Won't need double pickups.

Jim Hanks
01-24-2016, 03:50 PM
What I'd like to see......
Is a bluetooth mems mic that just clips on the inside of the soundhole.

Then either marry it to a phone, computer, or... a receiver that has a 1/4" jack.
The iRig Acoustic clips on the sound hole. It isn't Bluetooth of course but I would think the latency on Bluetooth would be unacceptable for this application.

Ukulele Eddie
01-24-2016, 04:35 PM
Great "catch", Mim. Look forward to hearing more on this new model.

Booli
01-24-2016, 08:43 PM
OMG- MIM- THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for sharing this with us! MiSi makes a great pickup system, and it's great to see that they are continuing to innovate!


But I assume there's another PCB + battery at the pickup? Hmm? 2 batteries?

MiSi pickups have no battery, but a capacitor that acts like a rechargeable battery, and a capacitor does not have the 'memory effect' and degradation that all rechargeable batteries have, whether NiCd, NiMh, LiIon, or LiPoly.

Other kinds of rechargeable batteries (not typically used for music applications, such as the SLA (or Sealed Lead-Acid) batteries do not have such problems, but have lower energy density, weight a tonne more, and are subject to getting 'sulfated' and need to be 'reconditioned' with a proper charger. SLA batteries are typically used as a backup power source for home alarm systems, and computer UPS power supply surge protector units, like 'APC Back-UPS', or those made by Tripp-Lite, or Cyberpower.

Having said that, if The dual MiSi also has the typical silver pickup ribbon element, in addtion to a MEMS mic, and a fader/blend control, there's not too much re-engineering required to make them BOTH work from the existing PCB. A typical MEMS mic, such as one made my STM Microelectronics is about 1.5mm square in size for the surface-mount package and likely could be placed on the existing PCB with power and signal traces etched therein.

The silver pickup ribbon that MiSi uses solders on to the PCB underneath the capacitor (which is the big round thing you see in one of the photos above), and MiSi already has an add-on PCB with a volume and tone control, that one can solder on to ANY MiSi Acoustic Trio with it's included wire after cutting a circuit trace on the preamp/endpin jack's PCB, and the volume/tone PCB has a 12" or so wire with thumbwheel controls, and is intended to be mounded at the soundhole for easy access.

One of the folks at MiSi had sent me the instructions and wiring diagram some time ago, and I still have them, but never got around to buying and installing the volume/tone control, since I never really needed to bother with it, and did my tone shaping by other means.

Mainland Ukes and Elderly both sell the add-on volume/tone control board for the MiSi, which IIRC is ~$35-38.

http://www.elderly.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/350x350/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/s/msvtc.jpg
http://www.elderly.com/mi-si-volume-tone-control.htm

So if MiSi were to enlarge the existing volume/tone control board to add a 3rd thumbwheel potentiometer as a blend control, and instead of 3 wires to the preamp board, it is now 4 or 5 wires (depending upon whether both the pickup and MEMS mic will share a ground wire or not) is not an expensive or complicated endeavor, and really would be electronics 101 to wire a blend control to a volume control to a tone control all in series with the output likely coupled with a capacitor and resistor parallel across the hot and ground on the output to provide some isolation from any possible DC ripple from the capacitor that is providing power to both the MEMS mic and preamp circuit.

All of this is just a guess, but I'd be very surprised if the shipping product is significantly different from what I've described here.

Having said all that - I WANT ONE. :)

My FIRST install would be into one of my Flea or Fluke ukes. Never been real happy with soundboard transducers, and any UST for these has to be installed at the factory at build time since the bridge is screwed in from UNDER the soundboard, and there's no easy access like on most other ukes.

This could be a real GAMECHANGER! I have the MiSi Acoustic Trio pickup installed on 3 instruments and did the install myself and it was pretty easy once you understand all the steps. Aldrine has a Uke Minute with Joe Souza of Kanile'a where they show one method of installation.

Booli
01-24-2016, 08:45 PM
Ha! There's my "iRig Acoustic Pro" that IK shoulda made. :rolleyes:

Yes - :agree::iwant:


The iRig Acoustic clips on the sound hole. It isn't Bluetooth of course but I would think the latency on Bluetooth would be unacceptable for this application.

:agree:

Doc_J
01-25-2016, 02:18 AM
Thanks Booli, I think I get it. you're saying it might have a mic on the PCB with the Jack, and not have an under the saddle pick up? Very interesting. It would be cool if they used Bluetooth and had a phone app for adjusting the sound volume and tone.

good_uke_boy
01-25-2016, 03:01 AM
http://mi-si.com/2016/01/17/ahead-of-namm-new-pickups/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone#MEMS_microphone

sam13
01-25-2016, 03:25 AM
Great update. Thanks Mim.

Beau Hannam Ukuleles
01-25-2016, 03:34 AM
SSSooooo... is the microphone somewhere on that green board?????

kkimura
01-25-2016, 03:49 AM
Yes, a MEMS microphone is a surface mount device.

spookelele
01-25-2016, 03:49 AM
In the UU video, he says the mic is hidden under the coin shaped capacitor.
That kinda seems... bad. I've not seen an application where putting something in front of a mic that isn't something pass through like a pop filter.. was a good thing.


https://youtu.be/6iVbIJvjays

Booli
01-25-2016, 05:13 AM
Thanks Booli, I think I get it.

You're welcome. :)


you're saying it might have a mic on the PCB with the Jack, and not have an under the saddle pick up? Very interesting.

Not exactly. It seems from what MIM has shared and other info from NAMM 2016, that they will have 2 models, one which is MIC only, and one that is MIC and UST pickup, and this the reasons for my explanation about PCB and battery in reply to your previous post.


It would be cool if they used Bluetooth and had a phone app for adjusting the sound volume and tone.

A BT control app may be closer to reality because...

They've already had a product for some time now that has the volume and tone controls on a hand-held remote device. They call it the 'Cutless'. Fellow UU brother Ukeeku did a video review of it when it was new.

Here's a photo:

http://mi-si.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/combo_2.png

Booli
01-25-2016, 05:23 AM
SSSooooo... is the microphone somewhere on that green board?????


Yes, a MEMS microphone is a surface mount device.

Here is a photo that shows a MEMS mic element in relation to a US 25 cent (quarter) coin:

http://cdn.active-robots.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/9/09397-500_1.jpg
Note that some additional components are needed, as well as DC voltage from 1.5v to 12v to actually create sound from one of these as an analog transducer. More voltage gives more GAIN and more HEADROOM, i.e. it is louder and can handle greater peaks-above-average if you use a higher voltage to power it.

For those curious, a MEMS mic is NOT an elecret mic, condenser mic, or dynamic mic. It is a slightly different and much newer technology than ANY of those. Here's a picture of how they are constructed:

http://www.eeherald.com/images/memsmicrophone3.png

photoshooter
01-25-2016, 05:37 AM
Well I'm with Booli on this one (even if I don't have a clue what he said) :p

The quality of the MiSi Acoustic Trio using a mems mic to deliver on the promise of the iRig Acoustic...
and at a cheaper price than the MiSi Trio (and easier to install)!!!

Take my money please!

Booli
02-24-2016, 09:16 PM
Well I'm with Booli on this one (even if I don't have a clue what he said) :p

The quality of the MiSi Acoustic Trio using a mems mic to deliver on the promise of the iRig Acoustic...
and at a cheaper price than the MiSi Trio (and easier to install)!!!

Take my money please!


Yep!

One month later and I'm STILL very excited for this to become available ASAP.

Holding my breath! :rock:

hollisdwyer
02-25-2016, 03:17 AM
Yep!

One month later and I'm STILL very excited for this to become available ASAP.

Holding my breath! :rock:
Do you know if MiSi is planning to have their volume/tone control to be connectable to the Air version?

Booli
02-25-2016, 11:23 AM
Do you know if MiSi is planning to have their volume/tone control to be connectable to the Air version?

No idea.

I have no access to inside info on their products and am as much in the dark as everyone else.

I am however a HUGE fan of the Acoustic Trio pickup and have installed it myself on 3 ukes and 2 guitars.

Ukuleleblues
02-29-2016, 03:56 PM
Hey Mim, any idea when you will be selling these?

theboss
02-29-2016, 04:38 PM
Hey Mim, any idea when you will be selling these?

I've been told by another supplier April.

spookelele
04-05-2016, 05:45 AM
I've been told by another supplier April.


It's april.

Any updates? I'm super interested in this thing.. pretty much at the "take my money" stage.

Croaky Keith
04-05-2016, 06:28 AM
Not saying it's the exact same thing, but take a look at this,
http://www.omegamusic.co.uk/products/baton-rouge-v10-cce-mi-si-concert-electro-ukulele
look at the right hand side, expand the text if necessary.

Booli
04-05-2016, 07:09 AM
Not saying it's the exact same thing, but take a look at this,
http://www.omegamusic.co.uk/products/baton-rouge-v10-cce-mi-si-concert-electro-ukulele
look at the right hand side, expand the text if necessary.

Yea, good catch on that one Keith - but the description does not indicate which version of the Mi-Si pickup is in there. A phone call or email might get this info, but since I'm in the USA, I'll leave that to those that might be local to Omega Music since I'd buy from a USA vendor if possible.

Were I to guess, I'd say that they are likely using the older pickup, the 'Acoustic Trio' model, just because it usually takes until the April-May-June time-frame for products from Winter NAMM to actually appear to distributors and then resellers, that is, if the products ever actually ship in the first place...

Maybe Omega has some NOS (New-Old-Stock) Mi-Si pickups that they want to clear out in order to sell the new version, and that is the how/why this Baton Rouge uke has one at better price pre-installed?

Croaky Keith
04-05-2016, 08:02 AM
Well I just ordered one of those Baton Rouge MiSi Concert Cutaway ukes anyway, as it looked like a good deal - we shall see. :)

LarryS
04-05-2016, 08:09 AM
That looks really cool!

spookelele
04-06-2016, 09:35 AM
Well I just ordered one of those Baton Rouge MiSi Concert Cutaway ukes anyway, as it looked like a good deal - we shall see. :)

It looks alot like the caramels to me. With the wood burned rosette.

strumsilly
04-06-2016, 10:16 AM
the misi site says the air's are now available. anyone know where to get one? I want to try one out in my new to me [thanks Lenny] Koaloha longneck concert.

Ukejenny
04-06-2016, 10:44 AM
Very promising. And the fact that it charges in 60 seconds... This sounds like a win win.

DownUpDave
04-06-2016, 11:22 AM
the misi site says the air's are now available. anyone know where to get one? I want to try one out in my new to me [thanks Lenny] Koaloha longneck concert.

I just saw that and was about to post the news, good job Andy.

I sent them an email injury about the other new pickup "Air Trio" asking when that will be available. That was just a couple of hours ago so when I get a reply I will post it here.

Booli
04-06-2016, 01:05 PM
I just checked all the dealers on their 'Find-A-Dealer' page and could not find any info regarding the new pickup. Many of those web sites also have no search function nor offer online sales. (except Elderly.com)

Also checked several other places that I've bought the Mi-Si Acoustic Trio for Uke, and oddly none of them even show ANY Mi-Si products.

One upon a time Pohaku Ukulele and Mainland Ukes were selling the Acoustic Trio, but I have not checked their sites yet.

We might still be waiting a while for any dealers to get them, but I am hopeful that they reply to DownUpDave's email with some info for us...I have one uke and one guitar that are ready to have the new Air model installed immediately (by me) once I can get the funds together.

One uke will be a tenor Flea, and the guitar is an Art & Lutherie Ami Nylon parlor guitar with a cedar top/cherry back and sides.

On Fluke and Flea ukes, unless you buy direct and opt for the B-Band pickup system to be installed, there's too much risk of drilling into one of the internal braces, or the screws that hold the bridge on...

(the bridge on these ukes is screwed in to the soundboard by screws from the UNDERSIDE, and there's no way to get to them without removing the top, or cutting a hole in the polycarbonate back of the instrument, neither of which is something I'm willing to do)

On these ukes, I've tried a dozen different pre-made soundboard surface transducers, as well as built a few of my own and simply not happy with the sound, regardless if I used a $25 or $500 impedance-matching external preamp.

On the Ami parlor guitar, the setup/string geometry/intonation is absolutely perfect, and I do not want to upset or mess with the saddle or saddle slot, nor suffer the problems with a surface transducer....

So in either case, the Acoustic Air (or whatever it's called when we can actually buy it) would be just perfect for me to try on both instruments. I've already got the hole drilled for the endpin jack, so installation should take no more than like 10 mins if I go real slow....

Waiting with baited breath is an understatement.

I just hope the cost is closer to $100 than $200.

MEMS mic elements can be bought in single qty from electronics parts distributors like BG Micro, Digikey and Mouser for like $2 each, and the Mi-Si Crystal preamp can be had from Elderly for $118 as opposed to the Mi-Si Acoustic Trio with the pickup ribbon for $135 (which is the highest price I've seen it advertised, and I never paid more than $119 for it sans shipping).

DownUpDave
04-06-2016, 01:19 PM
I got a very quick response from Yevgeny loffe of Mi-Si Electronics Design. He informed me "Air Trio will not be available yet for another 2-3 weeks - such are the growing pains associated with introducing a completely new product".

It was quite professional of him to respond so quickly with as accurate an answer as he could provide.

I have no idea what the price will be Booli, I never asked him and the price is usually set at the retailer and as you know can vary.

Booli
04-06-2016, 01:27 PM
I got a very quick response from Yevgeny loffe of Mi-Si Electronics Design. He informed me "Air Trio will not be available yet for another 2-3 weeks - such are the growing pains associated with introducing a completely new product".

It was quite profeesional of him to respond so quickly with as accurate an answer as he could provide.

I have no idea what the price will be Booli, I never asked him and the price is usually set at the retailer and as you know can vary.

Thanks so much for sharing these details. I would be happy to wait for a product with all the bugs worked out prior to shipping rather than suffer through the alternative.

Their pickups have not let me down thus far, so fingers crossed! :)

Inksplosive AL
04-06-2016, 02:43 PM
So I guess you uninstall and reinstall the whole unit to change the battery?

Booli
04-06-2016, 03:18 PM
So I guess you uninstall and reinstall the whole unit to change the battery?


Nope - not at all.

First, as detailed previously in this thread and other discussions regarding Mi-Si pickups here on UU, there is NO battery at all but instead a 'super-capacitor' that acts like a battery, and thus no batteries to change ever. Mi-Si has said that the preamp can be recharged for ~5,000 cycles, which is if you charge it every day and run it flat, would get your more than 10 yrs of use.

Second, the previous Mi-Si units come with a charger, which have a 1/4" plug on one end that you insert into the jack, and the other end of the wire has a standard AC-to-DC wall-wart that you plug into the wall for 60 seconds. After that, it's charged. Remove the 1/4" charging plug from the endpin jack, and the AC outlet. No batteries involved.

In my use of the Acoustic Trio, I get about 14 hrs of continuous play time before needing a charge.

FYI, you have to remove the guitar cable from the jack when you are done, because this is a switched jack (turns on the preamp) and if you leave the plug in the jack it will run down the battery overnight.

Symptoms of the unit needing a charge can range from distorted sound, to low volume output, to no output at all.

The distorted sound comes from the fact that the circuit in the preamp has a 'gate-follower' or 'gate-follows-source' transistor network inside, and as such if the voltage is too low, not enough electrons can open the gate, and thus the sound is not 'clean'. This is common to both analog op-amp designs (LM386, etc) as well as PWM/differential digital-amp (TDA2020, etc) design.

Hope this helps....:)

Booli
04-06-2016, 03:21 PM
Here's a link to the PDF owners manual for the Mi-Si Acoustic Trio for Ukulele for anyone that's curious about how to install and or use one:

http://mi-si.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/mi-si_trio_uke_manual.pdf

spookelele
04-06-2016, 04:55 PM
I wonder if they'd let us do a group buy.

strumsilly
04-07-2016, 04:05 AM
so , has anyone found an online seller of the air yet?

KoaDependent
04-07-2016, 07:15 AM
Their pickups have not let me down thus far, so fingers crossed! :)

"Pickups with no letdowns" would be a great marketing slogan...

ksiegel
04-07-2016, 06:16 PM
so , has anyone found an online seller of the air yet?

When I last talked to Mim about it, she said it should be available sometime in May.

pekelo
04-08-2016, 06:28 PM
This Mi-Si is pretty good - I ended up using it for my uke books -for the CDs
I've got a Martin Tenor that I found at a music store that sells used instruments
in the U-district
So I got this Mi-Si, & had Dusty Strings install it
& used it on all the mp3 tracks of my CDs (for pekelos haw'n 'ukulele method:)
happy picking/pekelo

spookelele
04-09-2016, 12:06 PM
Elderly is listing it now. 4/18 arrival for the mems, 5/30 for the trio

http://www.elderly.com/brands/mi-si.html

Booli
04-09-2016, 12:40 PM
Elderly is listing it now. 4/18 arrival for the mems, 5/30 for the trio

http://www.elderly.com/brands/mi-si.html

AWESOME! Thanks for keeping an eagle-eye out for this! :)

Time to start lining up those shekels...

flailingfingers
04-09-2016, 03:46 PM
OK you experts: Which one of the two do you recommend and why?

Booli
04-09-2016, 04:07 PM
OK you experts: Which one of the two do you recommend and why?

There is no perfect answer.

It all depends upon your own specific needs...

Do you want an internal MEMS mic? (that's what this new thing brings)

or

Do you you want the piezo ribbon under-saddle-pickup? (the previous version)

or

Do you want a combination of MEMS mic and piezo ribbon? (also new)

There are different 'applications for'/'reasons to use' each type of device.

The performance of each new device yet remains to be seen and field-tested by us plebs, so EVERYTHING is speculation until in-hand sound demos are possible.

spookelele
04-09-2016, 04:15 PM
So... heres a thing.....

Where do you mount this? Traditionally we mount in the tail block or the bottom because of the cord. Also, in everything else.. the location doesn't matter because it's transduced. But this is a mic inside, and everywhere inside is not going to sound the same. Sound engineers will talk your ear off about how critical mic placement.

This is kinda.. all new territory.

Do you mount it in the tail block? if so, do you mount it closer to the sound board or away?

Do you mount it on the lower bout? If so, do you mount it closer to the hole, or find the average focus of the 2 parabolas and try to get it close to the focus? Do you try to get it under the saddle?

I have no idea. Maybe it doesn't matter? I've never listened to a uke from the inside.. which is what this is going to do.

photoshooter
04-09-2016, 04:26 PM
I'm under the impression that the mems is an endpin jack all-in-one unit which would simplify the choice of mounting location.

Edit: yup, check the first post in this thread

Booli
04-09-2016, 04:46 PM
So... heres a thing.....

Where do you mount this? Traditionally we mount in the tail block or the bottom because of the cord. Also, in everything else.. the location doesn't matter because it's transduced. But this is a mic inside, and everywhere inside is not going to sound the same. Sound engineers will talk your ear off about how critical mic placement.

This is kinda.. all new territory.

Do you mount it in the tail block? if so, do you mount it closer to the sound board or away?

Do you mount it on the lower bout? If so, do you mount it closer to the hole, or find the average focus of the 2 parabolas and try to get it close to the focus? Do you try to get it under the saddle?

I have no idea. Maybe it doesn't matter? I've never listened to a uke from the inside.. which is what this is going to do.

Seems to me that it mounts in the tail block and provides an endpin jack just like all their other products. See the photos in post #1 that MIM shared.

As far as the sound from inside the uke, well I've put various different mic elements inside the uke, and inside a guitar and there are certain spots that are 'hotter' than others, and certain spots where the phase cancellation and comb filtering is actually favorable to reproduce an authentic sound similar to what you receive at your eardrums, and all of this happens without fancy processing in the preamp because of the physics of sound.

So if there is a loud boomy bass frequency or shrill treble frequency that hits the top and back at relatively the same time, with phase cancellation, it zeros out to almost a null, i.e., no or very little sound, and if the frequencies reflect with an offset in time, lets say 1 millisecond or more, then they hit the mic element NOT at the same time, and instead of phase cancellation you get a comb filter effect, which depending upon which frequencies and how far apart the delays are, can actually sound quite natural and ambient because this is very much the way that human ears perceive sound in the open air as it reflects off surfaces in your environment.

So Spookelele, while these are valid questions, and having spent some time as a sound and recording engineer, and I can tell you that the worry may all be for naught if done right, but until I get one in my hands I cannot say for certain how it will perform. But experience has taught me that being optimistic about the performance of this is backed by lots of good math that I've been exposed to by real-world applications of mic technology.

Also, mounting closer to the sound hole is likely to create and/or enhance terrible feedback since you will have the membranes of the MEMS mic freely able to perpetuate those infinite oscillations with the speaker cone in whatever PA or amplifier you use.

If the mic is deeper INSIDE, closer to the tail block, you have a large air space, which is nearly separated from the outside except for the sound hole, and this provides a sort of buffer for the frequency reflections to bounce around inside, and with each bounce, they actually lose energy, and thus the mounting position (at the tail block) helps to mitigate feedback.

But that's just my theory...YMMV.

The LR Baggs 'Anthem' (and similar) guitar mic system has the mic element either right on the saddle plate or directly opposite the saddle plate ON THE BACK of the instrument and they are renowned for feedback rejection and good sound, but I am not sure what the electronics are in the preamp and what, if any processing is done inside the preamp.

I DO know that the Mi-Si pickups have a special and fixed EQ curve built-in that is balanced for a flat response using the LR Baggs silver pickup ribbon, which in Mi-Si's lingo is their 'linearization scheme'. I've tested the Mi-Si 'Crystal' preamp with several different pickup elements and ones that had a natural eq curve significantly different from the LR Baggs ribbon sound all kinds of bad in different ways, and pickup elements that were closer to the LR Baggs, sounded quite good or the same as the LR Baggs ribbon that Mi-Si has provided.

So with all of this, it's entirely possible that Mi-Si ALSO has a special EQ curve built-in to the Crystal preamp specific for the units with the MEMS mic in order to make it sound good.

Again, some of the above speculation, and proof will be in hearing it in person....

spookelele
04-09-2016, 05:04 PM
Right. it's an "end pin"

But the microphone is under the super capacitor about Im guessing 4 inches from the outer surface you mount it on.

With a piezo, where you mount that doesn't matter because there's a wire and piece goes under the saddle.
With a humbuck/etc where you mount the end pin doesn't matter either.

But the air is a microphone.

Where you mount it on the body is going to determine where inside the body it's "listening"

Take for instance you're going to mount it in the middle of the butt.

If you drill your hole closer to the sound board, you'll hear one thing.
If you drill closer to the back you'll hear something a little different.
If you drill directly in the middle of the tail block, which orientation do you use? do you face the microphone toward the top, the back, or one of the sides.

And that's just the tail block.

The lower bout can be thought of like 2 intersecting parabolas that open up into the soundhole and the upper bouts. Parabolas do that interesting focus thing with sound bouncing around. Do you try to get in a focus?

These are all things you don't worry about if you use a wire to the thing that has to sit under the saddle.

But this isn't that thing. It's a mic.

Like.. if you use a stick on transducer, if you put it in different places, you get different tones.
I think it's going to be like that. Except, not only x/y on a projection but also z in the body depth.

The mems is a very small thing, so it's very point in space where it hears sitting inside some complex curves in 3 dimensions.

DownUpDave
04-09-2016, 05:06 PM
I am going to get the Air Trio because it has BOTH mic and the undersaddle pickup. It comes with a tuning wheel to dial in how much of each input. Should be the best of both world. But as Booli said it is still to be seen how well it works. The ablitity to blend how much of each input it captures just makes the most sense to me

Booli
04-09-2016, 05:27 PM
Right. it's an "end pin"

But the microphone is under the super capacitor about Im guessing 4 inches from the outer surface you mount it on.

With a piezo, where you mount that doesn't matter because there's a wire and piece goes under the saddle.
With a humbuck/etc where you mount the end pin doesn't matter either.

But the air is a microphone.
...

But this isn't that thing. It's a mic.

Like.. if you use a stick on transducer, if you put it in different places, you get different tones.
I think it's going to be like that. Except, not only x/y on a projection but also z in the body depth.

The mems is a very small thing, so it's very point in space where it hears sitting inside some complex curves in 3 dimensions.

All valid questions. Not sure exactly of the answers. We will find out once the device is installed.

I plan to insert mine into a hole that is exactly half-way between the top and back of the ukulele, right in the seam where the edges of the sides meet where they are glued to the tailblock, just like all my other Mi-Si pickups and see how that goes...this is also the most structurally sound place to drill a 1/2" hole.

Not sure how you would position the face of the MEMS mic since really no way to tell from outside the uke and my hand is too fat to get inside the sound hole of any uke I own, even the baritones...will have to think about that one.

All of your questions in your post that I quoted above tie in to issues and effects of both phase cancellation (re: destructive interference) and comb filtering, both of which will alter the frequency response heard at the MEMS mic.

See here if not familiar with phase cancellation and comb filtering:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_%28wave_propagation%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_filter

and also some about audio feedback:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_feedback

That said, still all speculation on my part, sorry I cannot provide concrete absolutes, nobody can yet, not until we get them installed and test them.

spookelele
04-09-2016, 06:22 PM
I am going to get the Air Trio because it has BOTH mic and the undersaddle pickup. It comes with a tuning wheel to dial in how much of each input. Should be the best of both world. But as Booli said it is still to be seen how well it works. The ablitity to blend how much of each input it captures just makes the most sense to me

See... thats why I want the air.
If I wanted a transduced pickup, I'd get a baggs 5.0. Of the samples I've heard, it sounds the best.

In theory, a mic should give you more of the natural sound.. which is what makes this quite exciting, but really, there's going to be some coloration because it's not really isolated because it's directly clamped to a vibrating surface. Still, its very promising.

photoshooter
04-10-2016, 02:30 AM
Right. it's an "end pin"
~~~~~~~snip
If you drill your hole closer to the sound board, you'll hear one thing.
If you drill closer to the back you'll hear something a little different.
If you drill directly in the middle of the tail block, which orientation do you use? do you face the microphone toward the top, the back, or one of the sides.


Good points that I hadn't considered.



See... thats why I want the air.
In theory, a mic should give you more of the natural sound.. which is what makes this quite exciting, but really, there's going to be some coloration because it's not really isolated because it's directly clamped to a vibrating surface. Still, its very promising.

I'm not that great a player so I'm not sure the world needs to hear every nuance from me :)
However I bought the iRig Acoustic some months ago and playing with it I'm really liking the sound. One thing I don't like is that it clips to the edge of the sound hole and magnifies any contact my arm makes with the uke. I'm hoping the MiSi being inside the uke mitigates some of that. The Air Trio sounds like the ultimate solution since the ability to mix/blend the undersaddle and mic will allow the opportunity to create variations in the sound to better suit individual songs.

I'm really eager for these products to hit the street!

flailingfingers
04-10-2016, 02:57 AM
I think I got my answer: wait until Booli can try them.

strumsilly
04-14-2016, 05:05 AM
I ordered the mems from elderly today for a ukulele I have purchased but hasn't arrived. hopefully they will arrive close to the same date.

spookelele
04-18-2016, 07:06 AM
I ordered the mems from elderly today for a ukulele I have purchased but hasn't arrived. hopefully they will arrive close to the same date.

I'd be interested in hearing it in a uke.

Not sure what to think about it in a guitar.....Almost wonder if it would need some kinda dampening material inside the body. Maybe it'll be better in a uke since the body is smaller.

https://soundcloud.com/misimysound/mi-si-air-on-s-yairi

https://soundcloud.com/misimysound/mi-si-air-on-gibson-j-200

Booli
04-18-2016, 09:03 AM
I'd be interested in hearing it in a uke.

Not sure what to think about it in a guitar.....Almost wonder if it would need some kinda dampening material inside the body. Maybe it'll be better in a uke since the body is smaller.

https://soundcloud.com/misimysound/mi-si-air-on-s-yairi

https://soundcloud.com/misimysound/mi-si-air-on-gibson-j-200

Thanks for posting this.

Maybe it's just me, but if this is the official Mi-Si Soundcloud, you'd think that they'd actually tune the guitars in those audio samples before making the recordings, it's like nails on the chalkboard to me to hear those octaves be like 15 cents off in intonation...

Also, about 2/3 the way into those recordings the player is strumming real hard, and you can hear clipping (distortion) in the recording - the untrained ear may not hear it, but I do, and this is also something that the iRig Acoustic suffers from (which ALSO uses a MEMS mic element), i.e., being VERY VERY sensitive.....either that or the input gain on whatever recording device is about 2-3 db TOO HIGH and that is causing the distortion heard.

I'm trying real hard to hope that these audio samples are not typical of the new device, because sadly, so far, for me, it's a disappointment.

I will reserve judgment until one of us mere mortals can get one installed and put up our own sound samples....

DownUpDave
04-18-2016, 12:47 PM
I am officially "unexcited" after hearing those two samples. I agree with Booli, these are uninspiring to say the least. But I will wait to pass judgement until I get one installed in one of my own ukes. Here's hoping it sounds better

Brad Bordessa
04-18-2016, 01:52 PM
From what I've seen, there's a whole lot of music tech companies that seem to pull their demo guys off the street and hand them a guitar (or uke). I would guess this is one of those cases: a super smart engineer who can strum a couple chords better than the next guy. "Joe plays pretty well! Let's get him to do the demo!" That's great, but hardly cuts it.

I thought it sounded pretty good for what it is, all tuning/playing issues aside. Provided that the clipping issue can be addressed, I would be STOKED to have one of these to blend into my UST sound. By itself it might not be the beesknees, but it's most things a UST is not. So it would be the best of both worlds if you could blend the two! Could be revolutionary.

Five Ways
04-18-2016, 07:40 PM
I have one on order from SUS in the UK and i'm looking forward to it's arrival.

Booli
04-18-2016, 11:14 PM
...Provided that the clipping issue can be addressed...

So you hear it too? I mean it's not just my imagination, right? Please advise either way.

No hard feelings if others think I'm being too critical, I promise. :)

Jim Hanks
04-19-2016, 01:40 AM
Isn't clipping the recording engineers fault? I can get my irig acoustic to clip pretty easy, but if I turn down the input to -5 or so, it doesn't.

Shimmy
04-19-2016, 02:32 AM
Ken Middleton got the Air installed in a Mike Pereira tenor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUtKFfjeFQE

Croaky Keith
04-19-2016, 02:48 AM
Sounded good to me! :)

spookelele
04-19-2016, 05:08 AM
So you hear it too? I mean it's not just my imagination, right? Please advise either way.

No hard feelings if others think I'm being too critical, I promise. :)

I heard something... Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's the recording, the processing, or the compression.
But the 2 clips I linked.. were not record quality for sure.

spookelele
04-19-2016, 05:13 AM
Ken Middleton got the Air installed in a Mike Pereira tenor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUtKFfjeFQE

That had a much better tone.

But there's still a treble buzz in Ken's video.

Hope it's not the clip on the super capacitor....

Booli
04-19-2016, 06:31 AM
Ken Middleton got the Air installed in a Mike Pereira tenor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUtKFfjeFQE

Thanks for posting this.


That had a much better tone.

But there's still a treble buzz in Ken's video.

I agree that the tone was better than the Mi-Si Soundcloud recordings, but with the sound turned up to a reasonable level on my Yamaha HS-50 studio monitor speakers, I hear something not quite right...some buzzing? rattling? crackling? kind of sound, that seems to be related to his movements in the video...

If you are listening with a laptop, tablet or smartphone's tiny little speakers, you may not be able to hear these things due to the limitations of such speakers as governed by the physics of sound...having said that, headphones would get you closer to the real sound of the recording in a pinch.


Hope it's not the clip on the super capacitor....

If the preamp board for this is the same as or similar to the Acoustic Trio, the super-capacitor is soldered directly to the PCB, and should not have ANY movement at all relative to the PCB of the preamp....but I have not seen one up close yet so I dunno...something is not quite right to my ears...

Lots of things we do not know (in BOTH Ken's video and in the Soundcloud recordings)- i.e., the rest of the signal chain from the Air to whatever it was recorded with, and if any post-processing was done...so it's all just guessing on my part...

Despair is starting to gain some ground for me here...waiting for more audio samples with known/shared specs on the full signal chain from the Air to the recording device, and full details on and if, any post-processing was done...

When I get one, I plan to go straight into the Apogee JAM on the iPad, and use MoviePro to capture the sound and video, with no effects, nor ANY manipulation of the sound. If still it sounds disappointing after that, well, that's a good reason to buy from a vendor that accepts returns and gives refunds.

I already have at least 2 ukes with other (cheap, passive) pickups in them that have an endpin jack, so for me to install and/or remove one of these (if need be) is not going to cause unwanted holes since they already exist in those instruments.

spookelele
04-19-2016, 07:54 AM
the buzz is pretty evident. I can hear it on my cheap laptop speakers.
At first I thought it was something on my desk.

It seems primarily when he hits the 1|2 strings harder.

Ken said he thinks it might be something in his recording, and not necessarily the unit itself.

Anyway.. i'm still hoping it's just a matter of setup, and not some inherent flaw in the pickup system.
I have been wondering though.. if it's vibe between the hole and the end pin.
I can't think of anything else that would vibrate with it installed that wouldn't without it.

mmfitzsimons
04-19-2016, 08:38 AM
So much tossing and turning over this—relax, people, we're talking about ukuleles!!

I'm so excited to be able to amplify my beloved super tenor without having to mess with the saddle, etc.

Booli
04-19-2016, 08:59 AM
So much tossing and turning over this—relax, people, we're talking about ukuleles!!

I'm so excited to be able to amplify my beloved super tenor without having to mess with the saddle, etc.

The point is that WE ARE EXCITED and only wish for the Mi-Si Air to live up to it's potential.

Discussing it and sharing information is how these forums work.

Without all of this discussion (or ones like it), there would BE no UU forum (or very little content here).

This product has the potential to be a game-changer, and I say this as an avid technophile, musician and gear enthusiast who has had many decades of experience with audio engineering for both live sound and recording.

So I cannot apologize if it seems I am being critical.

The way that the gear market is today with SO MANY choices, and little time and less money, it is essential to separate the wheat from the chaff, otherwise your time and money disappear and all you are left with is a big fat handful of disappointment.

There are way too many crappy products in any 'market' that are basically disposable, and it is by sharing our information that we can help each other to avoid them and make better choices with our time and money, and doing so helps to keep the good products in the market while forcing the bad products to disappear into oblivion (hopefully).

Hobbyist or Professional, one is STILL spending time and money either way.

Brad Bordessa
04-19-2016, 09:29 AM
So you hear it too? I mean it's not just my imagination, right? Please advise either way.

No hard feelings if others think I'm being too critical, I promise. :)

Yeah. When he/she'd strum hard it would over-saturate. Didn't sound like digital clipping though, I didn't think.

Bottom line is: the snowball is rolling. Even if MISI can't get the technology right the first time, somebody will in a few years. We've been waiting a LONG time for this sort of thing. I would honestly be surprised if it was perfect. But wait until Baggs or Fishman jump on board... With that many brilliant minds working towards a similar goal positive progress is inevitable.

robedney
04-19-2016, 11:12 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong on this Booli, but it seems to me that there need to be two discrete preamp circuits in there -- one for the mic and one for the piezo, and that the balancing pot should be seeing the output from the preamps. A passive pot (meaning the the balance control is seeing the output from the mic and the piezo before inputing to the preamp(s)) runs the risk of being noisy -- it's dealing with a very low level signal.

I'm seriously interested in this because I'm just about to finish off what will be the final prototype of our carbon fiber/wood hybrid tenor. I want to put whatever the best (and most complimentary) pickup system I can find in the thing. Like most of you I intuitively feel that the misi air -- with it's combo of mic and transducer -- should be the cat's meow, particularly because it offers the misi capacitor/charging system. I hate putting batteries into things. The carbon fiber body of our prototypes are particularly resonant and I want to capture that, something a straight under saddle pickup mostly misses.

spookelele
04-19-2016, 11:32 AM
misi air, is just a mems.

the misi acoustic trio air, is the piezo/mems combo. It's not out till end of next month, so there's no sound sample to compare.

robedney
04-19-2016, 11:38 AM
Thanks spookelele!

Booli
04-19-2016, 12:11 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong on this Booli, but it seems to me that there need to be two discrete preamp circuits in there -- one for the mic and one for the piezo, and that the balancing pot should be seeing the output from the preamps. A passive pot (meaning the the balance control is seeing the output from the mic and the piezo before inputing to the preamp(s)) runs the risk of being noisy -- it's dealing with a very low level signal.

Nobody knows for sure yet how it's put together. However, I can tell you that the silver UST pickup ribbon of the previous generation, i.e the Acoustic Trio, has a very HIGH impedance, and a very LOW output signal/voltage from my own hands on tests. The preamp circuit for this compensates for both factors.

The handful of MEMS mics that I've tried were VERY sensitive by default when supplied with more than ~6 volts of power, and as such the input gain on any attached preamp has to be DOWN and not UP like with the UST pickup ribbon.

I don't know if they will have two discrete preamp channels on the 'Acoustic Air' board with slightly different functions. I am only a potential consumer, and have no 'inside information' here, and my thoughts in this thread are based upon my experience and understanding of their previous generation model.


misi air, is just a mems.

the misi acoustic trio air, is the piezo/mems combo. It's not out till end of next month, so there's no sound sample to compare.

What he said ^ :).

robedney
04-19-2016, 12:50 PM
OK, I have a message into Misi about getting an Acoustic Air Trio for testing in our instruments. I'll keep UU updated. You can see one of our prototypes at http://www.orcaukuleles.com

Steveperrywriter
04-20-2016, 05:24 PM
Andrew is testing these at the store. So far, not looking so great.

Booli
04-21-2016, 02:09 PM
Andrew is testing these at the store. So far, not looking so great.

So, should I cry now, or cry later?

I was full of so much hope, and I got drunk on my own self-induced hype. Serves me right for being optimistic. No good deed goes unpunished.

I will be crushed if it truly cannot deliver.

spookelele
04-21-2016, 04:22 PM
So, should I cry now, or cry later?

I was full of so much hope, and I got drunk on my own self-induced hype. Serves me right for being optimistic. No good deed goes unpunished.

I will be crushed if it truly cannot deliver.

Me too.

Ken's video held some promise except for the buzzing, but the buzz + the vendor clips, are a bit worrysome.

I suppose if MiSi didn't make a good one.. the door is open, and others will try.
The idea of just having to drill 1 easy hole to get a pickup... is soo enticing.

bigphil
04-21-2016, 05:33 PM
Andrew is testing these at the store. So far, not looking so great.

Yes, Andrew reported issues with feed back to such an extent that he said he doesn't plan to carry them if he doesn't have better results in further tests...

Ken Middleton
04-21-2016, 08:16 PM
The noise on my first recording using the MiSi Air was hard to track down. I think it may have been the cable. It was either faulty or not properly inserted into the jack. I have not been able to replicate the distortion/noise again and it does not appear to be present on any of the other recordings I made in Reno or San Francisco recently. I feel sure that it is not a fault on the unit itself.

hollisdwyer
04-22-2016, 02:10 AM
The other MiSi pickups are so good I'd be surprised if the Air doesn't, ultimately, join their ranks of highly thought of units.

DownUpDave
04-22-2016, 02:51 AM
I was pretty stoked about these pick ups. Here is what Andrew from HMS said on facebook after installing in a cedar top Pono tenor. "it feeds back really easily, got overdriving wolf tones even at lower frequencies. I definitely couldn't send this out. I'm gonna try it in a soprano next. I bought a bunch of them but I'm not gonna sell them if I can't get better results......Oh well"

spookelele
04-22-2016, 05:38 AM
I was pretty stoked about these pick ups. Here is what Andrew from HMS said on facebook after installing in a cedar top Pono tenor. "it feeds back really easily, got overdriving wolf tones even at lower frequencies. I definitely couldn't send this out. I'm gonna try it in a soprano next. I bought a bunch of them but I'm not gonna sell them if I can't get better results......Oh well"

I thought wolf tones were particular to an instruments resonance.
Unless he means something else?

Or is that what we hear in Ken's video?

ZappCatt
04-22-2016, 06:03 AM
I know nothing about microphones, recording instruments and the limitations but.....

How did this get off the drawing board/out of the lab if these issues are so prevalent and easily noticeable by so many people? I realize that Booli is an audio recording expert, but it seems like everyone who has heard them thinks they have serious issues.

Is MSI that desperate to get a new product out?

Just seems weird.

kmac66
04-22-2016, 06:38 AM
What are "wolf tones"?

Booli
04-22-2016, 07:08 AM
I know nothing about microphones, recording instruments and the limitations but.....

How did this get off the drawing board/out of the lab if these issues are so prevalent and easily noticeable by so many people? I realize that Booli is an audio recording expert, but it seems like everyone who has heard them thinks they have serious issues.

Is MSI that desperate to get a new product out?

Just seems weird.

Thanks ZappCatt, but I am far from an expert, but I do have a useful amount of experience with audio and try to share-forward as much as I can from what I've learned myself hands-on.

Surely, there are others here on UU with equal or greater experience than me. Maybe I'm just very vocal when I'm passionate about something?

It's good to see that I'm not 'hearing things' that are not there that others can hear too, but also bad because these 'things' or 'artifacts' are not things we want in a product that has (or is supposed to have) transparent audio.

I dunno what Mi-Si has been motivated by, as I have no inside connection, nor ever communicated with them directly, I'm just a past and potential future customer of their products just like the rest of you folks.

Could it just be that being 'first to market' is going to come with some growing pains here with this product, and some of us with wild anticipation have jumped the shark?

Like Brad said, maybe we will see some competition from Fishman, LR Baggs, et al, and via that fight for market share, we will have a usable product with no concessions? I dont know.

Would that I could to get one in hand to test myself immediately - but funds are non-existent and free time for such a project is in short supply right now - so I am quite appreciative of the efforts of others and the sharing of information here - I humbly thank you all for your past and future efforts in this regard...

What does the Mi-Si future hold? It's anyone's guess. :)

Mahalo - Booli

robedney
04-22-2016, 07:17 AM
What are "wolf tones"?

Ah, welcome to the violin world! A wolf tone (or wolf note) sounds a bit like your dog howling. It happens when a bowed string comes close to matching the specific body resonance of the instrument. There is often a pulsing as well, caused by a slight frequency mismatch.

I doubt that what Andrew is hearing is a true wolf tone. These tend to happen specifically in bowed instruments, not plucked or strummed. However -- just thinking out loud here -- I suspect that he is hearing a frequency mismatch. It appears that the mic in this case is mounted to the circuit board including the capacitor and pre-amp circuit(s). If that's the case, the mic element is going to resonate both the the sound waves propogating in the air inside the body AND directly to the vibration of the body itself. Those to things are never going to be in sync (at least naturally).

I may be all wet here, but is suspect that the combo of an under-saddle piezo and an internal mic would require that the mic "float", in other words be in some sort of rig that suspended it and isolated it from body resonances. Even then, it might be necessary to provide some means of electronically controlling the timing of the inputs -- bringing the acoustic output into sync with the piezo and the mic. Intuitively it makes sense that feedback would be a major issue otherwise, as would wolf-like tones.

If the above guessing proves to be accurate these things may work well in one uke and not another -- even of the same make and model. The primary natural resonance of any two instruments nearly never match precisely, even when all other things are equal.

spookelele
04-22-2016, 07:35 AM
What are "wolf tones"?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi_6r0kk2nE

robedney
04-22-2016, 08:14 AM
Another thought:

Let us not forget that Misi's claim to fame has to do with using a capacitor to run the preamp circuit -- and cleverly charging that capacitor through the existing end-pin jack. Tried and proven preamp circuits for piezo input abound on the web, so it's not hard to come up with one. Running off of a capacitor as opposed to a battery is brilliant -- charging is fast and capacitors can cycle repeatedly without loss of life. This achievement, however, does not necessarily translate to acoustical/electronic engineering prowess. I guess we'll find out.

When we started looking for a pickup system for our violins we tried all sorts of things. We ultimately ended up making our own, comprised of three disc-type piezo transducers located in three distinct locations. Finding the optimum locations was time consuming, in that it had to happen experimentally -- mapping body resonances in a violin is the stuff of super computers.

Why three? Stick a piezo in the bridge of a violin (much the same as an under-saddle pickup in a uke) and it works pretty well. However, you tend to get the same sound from a variety of instruments because you are sampling exclusively at the bridge and pretty much ignoring all those rich and lovely body resonances that go into the purely acoustical mix. When you sample from three carefully chosen locations you get something much closer to the full sound of the particularly instrument, capturing its best qualities.

That's the advantage to a mic. In theory, an internal mic is isolated from the body of the instrument, and the element is resonating with the complex mix of sound waves propagating through the air inside the box. In other words, you are capturing something much closer to the richness of the full instrument. We all know, however, that mics do not come problem free -- the most common culprit being feedback. Once you've got a mic inside an instrument, the instrument itself becomes part of the mic. Depending on all sorts of variables you might be creating a feedback machine. Tune out the feedback (directionality, location, electronically filtering) and you begin to compromise the fullness of the sound. It's all one big compromise.

Booli
04-22-2016, 12:09 PM
Ok, so MIM started this thread and then just disappeared...back like 2 months ago after NAMM was over....

Did we scare her off?

Maybe she thinks we're all a bunch of krayzees or or sumfin...???

Paging MIM to the psych ward....MIM to the psych ward STAT! :biglaugh:

mmfitzsimons
04-22-2016, 12:27 PM
The plot thickens. The mystery deepens. Ken's post was encouraging, but Andrew's... not so much. The only thing certain is that uke players are lucky to have these boards, not only as a source of info, but to spare our non-uke playing friends from having to hear us work through our hopes and fears. ;)

As for me, my order is placed, not sure if it's shipped, but I'll let the order stand. I have an uke I'm unwilling to cut, so like Obi Wan, this is my only hope for amplification.

And if the amplification is imperfect, well, so is my playing.... All things considered, I make a pretty good guinea pig. :)

Croaky Keith
04-22-2016, 09:18 PM
Ok, so MIM started this thread and then just disappeared...back like 2 months ago after NAMM was over....

Did we scare her off?

Maybe she thinks we're all a bunch of krayzees or or sumfin...???

Paging MIM to the psych ward....MIM to the psych ward STAT! :biglaugh:

She's probably just too busy setting up all those ukes that people on here keep telling newbies to get from her. :rofl:

AndrewKuker
04-22-2016, 11:46 PM
I thought wolf tones were particular to an instruments resonance.
Unless he means something else?


Must have been another tone, related to the wolf. Vibration and energy, it’s all the same problems. A uke is small and punchy. To a microphone it’s like an angry midget boxer! Straight shot to the diaphragm and boom KO/

I can turn the gain on my mic preamps way higher without overdriving when recording a big dreadnaught guitar than with a soprano ukulele. I’m talking about recording mics but the Mi-Si air is a mic, invisible and from the future, but basically a small condenser. Could double for back up vocal mic if you sing in the sound hole. But live it’s gonna pick up the monitors real easy and create a feedback loop. It's hard to mic an instrument from the inside, tried quite a few along the way. I’m still optimistic like a dog. Wolf!

When we get the Trio/Air blend and can work with that I’m confident it will be much better because I believe you can choose your blend. So in your room at home or when going into an interface cut in some of that mic and maybe it becomes sweeter, but then live go full miss trio and you’ll be all G.

I’d be interested in Baggs doing an Anthem/ 5.0 version. The problem frequency with ukes is usually around 250k and that system has a crossover so under 250k automatically goes to the element. Maybe everything below 400k would go to the 5.0/ that’d be good, maybe.

Anyway, we tried the air in a tenor and soprano and….Honestly I actually like acoustic sound best. Let’s all just unplug and live off the land.

Mi-Si is a great company as we all know, real envelope pushers. From my experience so far, the Air struggles on it’s own at higher volumes, but I think the brighter voiced, heavier built ukes would be less problematic. As would just recording vs. live. The dual Air/Trio should cover all bases…. Guaranteed to be the pickup of your dreams. We got this other dual mic(also in the pre-jack) /piezo from a company called.. Double. That’s what the box says. I’m assuming it’s gonna be Awesome! It's a nice box.

DownUpDave
04-23-2016, 12:51 AM
Andrew thanks for the great detailed answer. It is appreciated by all of us. Here is hoping the Air Trio with its ability to blend the levels of the two inputs is a success. I love the Misi acoustic Trio I have in a Pono spruce and mahogany baritone. It is actually the most naturally sounding combo I own.

AndrewKuker
04-23-2016, 01:43 AM
Thanks Dave! Btw, when I said guaranteed to be the pickup of your dreams, I meant hopefully will be the pickup of your dreams. Haha! It just struck me what a nerdy dream that would be.

DownUpDave
04-23-2016, 02:43 AM
Thanks Dave! Btw, when I said guaranteed to be the pickup of your dreams, I meant hopefully will be the pickup of your dreams. Haha! It just struck me what a nerdy dream that would be.

We are all Uke Nerds around here anyways. So that dream would be very appropriate.

By the way...........when do you sleep??? ;)

strumsilly
04-25-2016, 04:43 AM
Thanks for your thoughts Andrew. I was planning on putting the air into my new [to me] Collings tenor, which is lightly built and resonant as hell, good things in a uke, but probably a bad match for the air. Ordered from Elderly and they are not showing them as in stock yet, probably should just cancel the order and use a mic, but it sure is handy sometimes to just plug and play.

AndrewKuker
04-26-2016, 08:52 AM
LR Baggs is sending me a nylon voiced Lyric mic pickup to experiment with in ukulele. You can learn more about that here http://www.lrbaggs.com/pickups/lyric-acoustic-guitar-microphone. The reason I think this is a better fit is because it’s a PZM or boundary mic so it doesn’t capture reflection. This is even more important in a smaller chamber. It has phase cancellation and a compression on the low end that helps prevent feedback too. From what I have heard in guitar gives a better mic pickup sound than anything on the market. It would need some tweaking for ukulele and it won’t be as easy to install as the Misi, but for this type of system for ukulele I think it’s the most promising.

spookelele
04-26-2016, 09:30 AM
Where do you put a 9v battery in a uke?

I can't imagine if you put that much mass on the soundboard that its a good thing.

AndrewKuker
04-26-2016, 10:01 AM
Most of the active pickups we used to install had the 9v which would be mounted on the back. But they have made this system with the 3volt and that's how it would be if it's modified for ukulele.

Booli
04-26-2016, 10:59 AM
We are all Uke Nerds around here anyways. So that dream would be very appropriate.

Indeed, similar dreams have happened to me already...

Booli
04-26-2016, 11:13 AM
LR Baggs is sending me a nylon voiced Lyric mic pickup to experiment with in ukulele. You can learn more about that here http://www.lrbaggs.com/pickups/lyric-acoustic-guitar-microphone. The reason I think this is a better fit is because it’s a PZM or boundary mic so it doesn’t capture reflection. This is even more important in a smaller chamber. It has phase cancellation and a compression on the low end that helps prevent feedback too. From what I have heard in guitar gives a better mic pickup sound than anything on the market. It would need some tweaking for ukulele and it won’t be as easy to install as the Misi, but for this type of system for ukulele I think it’s the most promising.


Andrew - Thanks so much for testing these pickups for us.

Without the resources you provide to this community, many of is would be left with little to no information. I'm sure that other folks here appreciate your efforts too.

Mahalo,

Booli

Osprey
04-27-2016, 03:07 AM
Andrew - Thanks so much for testing these pickups for us.

Without the resources you provide to this community, many of is would be left with little to no information. I'm sure that other folks here appreciate your efforts too.

Mahalo,

Booli
Amen to that

AndrewKuker
04-28-2016, 04:30 PM
Just tried the dual system. It doesn’t totally cut out the mic with the blend all the way to the trio and we were getting all the same problems. Certain frequencies overdriving at moderate volumes and an overall imbalance. Plus the volume knob is going from 0 to 100 in the first 10% of it’s sweep like they used an audio pot instead of linear.

Anyway, thought I would share my experience. Wish I had better news. Maybe someone else will have more luck with it.

Brad Bordessa
04-28-2016, 08:54 PM
Bummer. Here's to 2.0.

Thanks for being the guinea pig.

DownUpDave
04-29-2016, 12:23 AM
Just tried the dual system. It doesn’t totally cut out the mic with the blend all the way to the trio and we were getting all the same problems. Certain frequencies overdriving at moderate volumes and an overall imbalance. Plus the volume knob is going from 0 to 100 in the first 10% of it’s sweep like they used an audio pot instead of linear.

Anyway, thought I would share my experience. Wish I had better news. Maybe someone else will have more luck with it.

So dissapointing that both products do not deliver clean sound. So much for this being the pick up of my dreams eh Andrew, more like a bad dream. Thank you so much for trying these out and being straightup and honest about all of this. Fortunately there are other good picks out there............including the tried and try Misi acoustic trio.

mmfitzsimons
04-29-2016, 07:27 AM
Yes, thank you Andrew. I guess this seals it, if even the combo doesn't cut it, I guess there really isn't much hope for the Air. I'm reluctantly cancelling my order, since they're still not in stock.

I may keep in mind your earlier comment; maybe the uke I had in mind is meant to stay acoustic... That seemed to have worked just fine for the first ten thousand years of music. :)

Booli
04-29-2016, 07:39 AM
Yes, thank you Andrew. I guess this seals it, if even the combo doesn't cut it, I guess there really isn't much hope for the Air. ...

More kudos to you again Andrew. Mahalo.

Seems like the new Mi-Si is falling short of expectations.

So, to go in the opposite direction - Andrew have you ever done a live show using those great Schoeps mics that are in so many of your videos that yield such great audio in your demos?

If so, How are the Schoeps mics with regard to feedback on a stage environment?

Thanks in advance and sorry for the off-topic.

AndrewKuker
04-29-2016, 09:51 AM
Well the Schoeps are really expensive. But there are similar mics for much less and you can use a condenser live but there are factors to consider. One is your polar pattern. You want a tight cardioid for as little off axis as possible.

Another factor is that you’re gonna get the best sound quality from a condenser at least 3-6 inches away from it and that’s harder to get really good gain without feedback on a loud stage. On a moderately quiet stage that’s much more achievable. So like with an SM58 your best sound is when your kissing it, so you have a lot less to ask from it, gain wise. That along with the small proximity it’s picking up makes it a lot easier for a sound guy to control but with a tight cardioid polar pattern it’s doable.

So it depends on your sound and volume as well as the design of the condenser. I want to get a mic from this guy that custom builds them in Portland, Ear Trumpet Labs, made for live and recording. - http://www.eartrumpetlabs.com/ I don’t just have UAS, I have GAS! Love of gear never goes away.

But back to the topic, thanks Booli and others. I have to say we’ve been installing the Trio regularly for the last few years with practically no problems and many great musicians choose them. Gerald Ross was recently telling me he uses them in all his ukes and never has issues, and he has a great sound. So I don’t mean to bad mouth the company. It’s just that this product didn’t work for us. Like Brad said, here’s to 2.0/

ksiegel
04-30-2016, 05:47 PM
Ken Middleton just uploaded a video, using the MiSi Air. He plugged directly into his Zoom H4N.

It sounds great - but that's directly in, rather than on stage.

Here's the video:


https://youtu.be/qc5Dn49ekl0

strumsilly
05-01-2016, 04:28 AM
Yes, thank you Andrew. I guess this seals it, if even the combo doesn't cut it, I guess there really isn't much hope for the Air. I'm reluctantly cancelling my order, since they're still not in stock.


ditto ,so did I .................

Ken Middleton
05-21-2016, 08:50 PM
SOLUTION

I have figured out what the "buzz" was on my first recording using the MiSi Air. I listened through headphones and realised I had heard it before. It is simply the buttons on my waistcoat (vest) rattling on the back of the instrument. It happens with all pickups, including undersaddle ones, when I move about too much. Solution: take the waistcoat off.

Feedback is another issue.

SailingUke
05-24-2016, 11:03 AM
Just put one of these in my MP tenor.
Very easy to install. When I first tried it there was a little feedback from the "C" string.
A little adjustment on the amp and all is good.

strumsilly
05-24-2016, 01:25 PM
Just put one of these in my MP tenor.
Very easy to install. When I first tried it there was a little feedback from the "C" string.
A little adjustment on the amp and all is good.would love to her a recording , and what amp are you using? Maybe all hope is not lost?

strumsilly
06-10-2016, 10:57 AM
Just put one of these in my MP tenor.
Very easy to install. When I first tried it there was a little feedback from the "C" string.
A little adjustment on the amp and all is good.
so have their been any other UU'ers who have tried one. this is one of the few + posts.

Ukelelelolo
06-11-2016, 08:49 AM
so have their been any other UU'ers who have tried one. this is one of the few + posts.

Considering installing the air on my Kamaka concert any recent reviewers?

saltytri
06-11-2016, 09:40 AM
I put one of these in a friend's tenor. Within a couple of feet of a Loudbox Mini there was some feedback but after he backed away a bit it sounded pretty good. He played for just a few minutes and I didn't get a chance to evaluate it against any other pickups but the first impression was positive.

strumsilly
06-11-2016, 09:43 AM
I put one of these in a friend's tenor. Within a couple of feet of a Loudbox Mini there was some feedback but after he backed away a bit it sounded pretty good. He played for just a few minutes and I didn't get a chance to evaluate it against any other pickups but the first impression was positive.feedback seems to be the issue, which is understandable since it is a microphone

Booli
06-11-2016, 09:57 AM
feedback seems to be the issue, which is understandable since it is a microphone

I wonder if a soundhole cover would kill or reduce the feedback of the Mi-Si Air.. I've been looking for one of these pre-made for UKULELE (and NOT guitar) all over the internet, but have found none. However, I wonder if a test to cover the soundhole with some blue painter's tape would verify if a soundhole cover would help. If so, I have a few plastic lids I could cut down to size if/when I were to get one of the Mi-Si Air pickup/mic units.

FYI: feedback is usually caused by the mic 'hearing' the sound speaker, and over and over again, and the sound waves cause that howling sound, which is in fact an oscillation of the sound going from the mic, out to the speaker, and then back into the mic, and out to the speaker ad infinitum.

A soundhole cover will BREAK the cycle both physically and acoustically by interrupting the actual sound WAVES and stopping them from going back in to the mic at an amplitude (volume) that can be heard and re-amplified.

The other option to mitigate feedback is to use a form of EQ, called a NOTCH filter, and tune it to the offending oscillating frequency and reduce the amplitude of that frequency as far as possible, and usually lowering of -12 to -24 db is enough. Remember that the decibel (db) units are LOGARITHMIC (Base-10)and not LINEAR, which means a change of -1db is actually a 10-fold decrease in amplitude, so it does not take much gain reduction in NUMBERS to cut the volume of the howling feedback.

Also, using a mic, you want to put the speakers of the PA or amplifier in FRONT of you, pointing AWAY from you and INTO the CROWD, and NOT behind you.

If the speaker or amp is BEHIND you, you will get feedback all day long, as well as if you are FACING the speaker (just watch any old Jimi Hendrix video and you will see :))...

Ukelelelolo
06-11-2016, 10:14 AM
Thank you for the replies. I have a LrBaggs acoustic DI to dial down feedback. Installation seems less invasive which I like. Considering the Air, the Misi trio or Fishman under saddle passive. The Misi's are about the same price so that's not an issue...

Booli
06-11-2016, 01:47 PM
SOLUTION

I have figured out what the "buzz" was on my first recording using the MiSi Air. I listened through headphones and realised I had heard it before. It is simply the buttons on my waistcoat (vest) rattling on the back of the instrument. It happens with all pickups, including undersaddle ones, when I move about too much. Solution: take the waistcoat off.

Feedback is another issue.


Hi Ken -

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your videos (Mi-Si and others too) and contributing to this thread. You are one of the first people to be able to use one of these new pickups AND also post a video demo, and as such are both a maverick and a true gentleman.

Mahalo,

Booli :music:

dkp
06-29-2016, 12:23 PM
I just installed one of these in a Kamaka H-3 running through a LoudBox Artist and no amount of adjusting can result in performance volume levels without feedback. I'll try it through my effects pedals tomorrow, but I think this is a bust. The feedback frequencies are all over the map so a single notch filter like found on the LoudBox won't help. I have a Sabine FBX-2400 dynamic notch filter but don't want another box to fiddle with.

Aside from the feedback there is some clipping even though the clipping light on the amp never lights up. I believe that to be the on-board preamp.

The installation is the simplest possible. Drill a hole, set the inner nut/washer set for correct wall thickness, assemble. Don't even have to remove the strings. I use a 1/4" fiberglass rod about 14" long that I got at a hardware store. They're normally seen in garden supply areas of big box hardware stores. Nice friction fit in the jack and rigid. As a fall-back I have a "Jack the Gripper" made by Frank Ford for Stewmac that holds the jack while tightening the nut.

I'll try using my Acoustacsonic amp and pedals, one of which is a passive volume control and maybe the Mi-Si add-on volume/tone control but that is pretty cheesey. First impression is this is a pretty bad product.

UkeNukem
06-30-2016, 03:55 AM
The noise on my first recording using the MiSi Air was hard to track down. I think it may have been the cable. It was either faulty or not properly inserted into the jack. I have not been able to replicate the distortion/noise again and it does not appear to be present on any of the other recordings I made in Reno or San Francisco recently. I feel sure that it is not a fault on the unit itself.

My thought was it was either something scratching the body like a button or seam threads.
(EDIT-Well now that I read through I see I was correct!) That videos are wonderful Ken, great playing!

drandle
12-01-2016, 10:53 AM
Any further developments on this thread? I was considering purchasing one of the Mi-Si Air's for my resonator guitar. Have they resolved the feedback issues or is it a dead product now?

Booli
12-01-2016, 11:16 AM
Any further developments on this thread? I was considering purchasing one of the Mi-Si Air's for my resonator guitar. Have they resolved the feedback issues or is it a dead product now?


Why would you assume it a dead product?

I see it still for sale on Elderly and a few other sites.

FYI: There is nobody from Mi-Si, officially or otherwise on this thread, and likely not here on UU either. We are all just end-users.

You might only get true answers direct from Mi-Si as to what development has been done, and maybe point them to this thread with a link in your message to them at either http://mi-si.com/contact-us/ or via email: info@mi-si.com.

Sorry that I do not personally have any more information.

drandle
12-02-2016, 02:44 AM
Perhaps I jumped too big of a gap when I asked if it's a dead product. but obviously if it has bad feedback issues per the reports, then I would think the manufacturer would try to resolve it. I have a Mi-Si Simple jack on order for my Kala Ubass since mine was made before they put in Shadow preamps in them.

Clay.Glenn
10-18-2017, 06:22 AM
Perhaps I jumped too big of a gap when I asked if it's a dead product.

Many months have passed now, and I don't even see the Air Uke listed on the MiSi website. Anyone know whether it has actually been withdrawn from the market?

Booli
10-18-2017, 07:13 AM
Many months have passed now, and I don't even see the Air Uke listed on the MiSi website. Anyone know whether it has actually been withdrawn from the market?

I've noticed that too, i.e., the removal from the web site, but other than that, I've got no new info, and no 'inside info', as I am just consumer.

My guess is they pulled it from distribution and anywhere it is still 'in stock' is old inventory from the vendors that ordered based upon the NAMM show previews.

Clay.Glenn
10-18-2017, 08:34 AM
Many months have passed now, and I don't even see the Air Uke listed on the MiSi website. Anyone know whether it has actually been withdrawn from the market?

I wrote to MiSi and asked the question. I got this reply:


"Thank you for your interest in our products, and especially in AIR UKE! After conflicting reports from our customers, we have placed both AIR and AIR UKE on indefinite hold. Having said that, we have Acoustic Trio Air available (also for ukes) - please see attached manual.

Should you have any questions - just write to us!

Best,
Yevgeny"

Booli
10-18-2017, 10:18 AM
I wrote to MiSi and asked the question. I got this reply:

"Thank you for your interest in our products, and especially in AIR UKE! After conflicting reports from our customers, we have placed both AIR and AIR UKE on indefinite hold. Having said that, we have Acoustic Trio Air available (also for ukes) - please see attached manual.

Should you have any questions - just write to us!

Best,
Yevgeny"


Aloha brother Clay -

Thanks for the update.

Mahalo \m/