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Alleyoop
03-25-2016, 08:37 AM
I provide the songs that our Ukulele club uses for their meetings. I obtain these files from various internet locations where they are freely available. I then select and edit the files so they provide useful pdf's that are broadcast to a large screen at our meetings. I email a link to the songs for the members of our group. I usually remove the songs that we aren't currently using. Some members are irritated because I do not leave all of our songs on the online location.
I feel a bit selfish by removing them but, since I spend considerable time searching for and editing these songs it bothers me that they will quite possibly be used by groups other than our own. Am I being selfish in this regard?

Patrick Madsen
03-25-2016, 09:04 AM
That's what a leader does; provides songs for it's members and others who find their site. I'd drop out of a group whose leader did that.
Here's a good example of what a wonderful, growing uke club comprises of. Not only does he provide the tabs but he also has done audios of the charts for others to learn from and encourages others to glean what they choose. Check out charts and the audio sections.
http://www.seniorukeensemble.com

I lead a local group in Blaine. It takes a lot work just to get the material together and keep it organized. Using a large screen sounds like a good idea. If others wanted to use our material, I am more than willing to share; it's part of the ukulele Ohana togetherness.

ZappCatt
03-25-2016, 09:06 AM
Since you have put in work, I guess it is up to you, but......

You mention that you get your information, either all of it, most of it, or a good part of it from the work of others who have "done some work" and put them online for others to use and enjoy.

From a bystander, it seems like leaving your well presented versions online would be a way to "pay it forward" and help the wider Ukulele community.

hawaii 50
03-25-2016, 09:12 AM
That's what a leader does; provides songs for it's members and others who find their site. I'd drop out of a group whose leader did that.
Here's a good example of what a wonderful, growing uke club comprises of. Not only does he provide the tabs but he also has done audios of the charts for others to learn from and encourages others to glean what they choose. Check out charts and the audio sections.
http://www.seniorukeensemble.com

I lead a local group in Blaine. It takes a lot work just to get the material together and keep it organized. Using a large screen sounds like a good idea. If others wanted to use our material, I am more than willing to share; it's part of the ukulele Ohana togetherness.

Thanks Pat..i never saw your website before...good stuff

Patrick Madsen
03-25-2016, 09:19 AM
Thanks, but it's not mine lol. It's from the Anacortes (Washington) Ukulele group just down the road from me.

spookelele
03-25-2016, 09:23 AM
What's it costing you to make it available?
If it's nothing, you might as well just let people have it.

70sSanO
03-25-2016, 09:34 AM
I understand where you are coming from as I have done something similar when I played bass at the church we were attending. I does take time and effort to pull everything together, make sure it was in the appropriate key, format it, (for me I had to put it in Word and Power Point, print everything out and then hand them out and over time they are copied and maybe used elsewhere.

But, unless these are your selections, without the original songwriter, you really would not have anything to format and distribute. Your effort, and mine at the time, is merely taking the work of someone else and making it more useful. Even public domain music was written by somebody.

If there are no copyright issues, I'd say leave them there. But as other's have said it is up to you.

John

Brad Bordessa
03-25-2016, 09:55 AM
Point blank: Yes, you're being selfish.

Leave them up. It's our duty as music "facilitators" to empower as many people as possible. There's no glory in creating or editing illegal tabs or sheets (which is what almost all of them are, like it or not). There's certainly no glory in "controlling" them. If you don't enjoy the time you put into editing sheets or sharing them, why do it? The "payment" should be the joy you bring to people by handing them the chords to their favorite song.

I've learned so many things from other people's efforts. When I make a tab I'm paying it forward for the next guy by sharing it.

Music is NOT a competition.

Edit: I live in Hawai'i where this sentiment is unheard of. It would be considered "haole style." So apologies if this seems harsh, but its my background and... ...you asked. :-)

Croaky Keith
03-25-2016, 09:58 AM
You are using the work of others, yes you are being selfish.

If no one let you use their work where would you get your songs from!

Alleyoop
03-25-2016, 10:26 AM
I don't consider the responses to my query to be 'harsh'. They are honest answers to my question (am I being selfish). As a result of the answers I have rcd so far re this post ... I am strongly leaning towards changing my current method and ensure my tab versions will be made available to all. Deep down I have always felt that it's the right thing to do.
This is my first post to Ukulele Hunt and I am very impressed by the responses I have rcd thus far. I can only hope that I'm not looked down upon by posing the question.

Alleyoop
03-25-2016, 10:28 AM
Great reply .... I'm impressed ..... thanx and have a fine day!

Alleyoop
03-25-2016, 10:30 AM
Thanx for the straightforward reply .... you're absolutely correct. (I feel admonished .... think that's the word)
Have yerself a fine day.

Tuirgin
03-25-2016, 10:42 AM
I'm new to this community, but I think what I'm seeing between the OP and the respondents is a bit of an initial conflict of cultural expectations. At the risk of getting political, North America is primarily a capitalistic society which goes to great effort to protect it's interests at personal, corporate, and political levels, both to make use of advantage and to guard against being taken advantage of by others. On the other side we have the competing culture of inclusion, openness, collaboration. I think a great many people default to self-protective positions because it's their dominant context; it's what they've experienced most, despite the many internal contradictions involved in the closed model. I don't think there's any reason to look down on anyone for posing the question, especially when the response to the answers received is openness.

Inksplosive AL
03-25-2016, 10:52 AM
This is my first post to Ukulele Hunt and I am very impressed by the responses I have rcd thus far. I can only hope that I'm not looked down upon by posing the question.

Pssssssst this is ukulele underground... ;)

Nothing else to say as its already said.

~peace~

Uncle Rod Higuchi
03-25-2016, 11:23 AM
BTW, Richard Mityling(?) the leader pictured in the Anacortes Group, recently passed away, Tues of this week, I believe.
Please pass along any condolences you feel comfortable sharing. I'm sure the remaining members would be flabbergased
to receive world-wide response to their website and the generous benefits derived therefrom.

more to the point of this thread, I understand some of the concerns. My primary concern has to do with broadcasting copyrighted
material... even for the benefit of the world-wide ukulele community. I don't compose my own songs, but rather work out
chording and arrangements for popular favorites (generally 30's, 40's, 50's, Hawaiian, etc). As such, those are previously
copyrighted materials so we (song leaders, song sheet preparers) run the risk of offending or legally compromising the copyright
holder's property.

we try to get around it by making our materials available to our group as being for 'educational purposes/uses', and we do try
to use them to teach each other more about how to play the ukulele.

Anyway, it's a cloudy area in my mind... however, if it were not a problem (possible legal issue) I'd be on the side of making
just about everything we do available to as many people interested in ukulele-related materials :)

keep uke'in',

Patrick Madsen
03-25-2016, 11:47 AM
OMG, Richard passed away. Will pass it on to the Bellingham Group Uncle. What a voice he had.

mm stan
03-25-2016, 04:44 PM
If you originally wrote the arrangement, I feel you have the right to keep it private if you are benefiting from sales of it.. otherwise if youre just taking others stuff and compiling them together for convenience and availability... it should be shared at no cost...its actually others work that you are passing on, like the original poster has done to pass it on at no cost, you shouldn't be benefiting from others work after you made your songbook for you and your club and hopefully you're not benefiting from it financially.. Your time invested was to promote the Uke movement in your group, why not the whole ukulele community and movement , other clubs share, why shouldn't you?

70sSanO
03-25-2016, 04:47 PM
I can only hope that I'm not looked down upon by posing the question.

Don't worry about that, this is a good group of people and one of the best forums around.

Welcome!

John

Patrick Madsen
03-25-2016, 05:06 PM
Heck no you're not looked down on. Thanks for leading a uke group and Welcome Home to the Uke Underground!

Jim Yates
03-25-2016, 06:32 PM
I enjoy seeing and hearing others play tabs or chord sheets that I have arranged.

I wonder sometimes if folks are talking about tabs or chord sheets. I consider a tab to be an arrangement that shows you where to put each finger and how to play an arrangement note for note. Tabs usually have four lines (or sometimes five) for ukuleles and either each line or each space stands for a string. The timing is indicated the same way as in standard notation.
Most clubs use chord sheets with the words of a song and the chord changes indicated at the proper place. This is not a tab, though some folks tend to call it one.

This is a chord sheet:

It's A Sin To Tell A Lie Billy Mayhew

Be sure it's (C') true when you (Gaug) say, 'I (C6) love you'
It's a (C') sin to (E7) tell a (F) lie
(G7') Millions of hearts have been (B7) bro(C')ken
(D7) Just because these words were (Dm7) spo(G7)ken

I love (C') you, yes I (Gaug) do, I (C6) love you
If you (C) break my (E7) heart I'll (F) die (A7) (Dm)
So be (F) sure that it's (Fm6) true when you (C) say, 'I love (A7) you'
(D7) It's a sin to (G7) tell a (C) lie (G7)

This is a tab (Click on the image for a readable size.):
89699

Ukejenny
03-25-2016, 07:45 PM
I add and change chords on many of the songs I load for our group, but I leave it all up and open to the public. I don't think people realize how much time it can take to get all the chords correct and in the right place, but it is a labor of love. I'm glad you are rethinking sharing. I do put our ukulele club name on everything I do, so people will know where it came from and will have the url to come to our site and get more music.

Here's our music. http://ubalabama.weebly.com/music.html

Croaky Keith
03-25-2016, 10:13 PM
Here's our music. http://ubalabama.weebly.com/music.html

Many thanks for posting yours, (bookmarked). :)

Croaky Keith
03-25-2016, 10:20 PM
I don't consider the responses to my query to be 'harsh'. They are honest answers to my question (am I being selfish). As a result of the answers I have rcd so far re this post ... I am strongly leaning towards changing my current method and ensure my tab versions will be made available to all. Deep down I have always felt that it's the right thing to do.
This is my first post to Ukulele Hunt and I am very impressed by the responses I have rcd thus far. I can only hope that I'm not looked down upon by posing the question.
Glad you are joining in with the great uke community & have decided to share. :)

(As no doubt pointed out already, we are Ukulele Underground.) ;)

Mivo
03-25-2016, 10:53 PM
I'm generally a fan of sharing (most things), though I understand the reluctance when you have put a lot of time into creating something. If you put your name, or your group's name, on the arrangements, they'll still be "yours" and word of you and your group will get out, while others still get to benefit from your work and contribution. I think it's a nice solution. :)

Tootler
03-25-2016, 11:21 PM
I provide song sheets for my uke group on much the same basis as the OP described. I find chord charts online or in my songbooks and edit, transpose if necessary and put the sheets together. I've considered the issue of putting the sheets online for the group but have not done so to date and the only reason is that I'm wary of copyright issues. I've discussed this with the group and they're quite happy with my decision. So, in my case it's not a case of selfishness but just being cautious.

I'm in the UK and our copyright laws are slightly different from the US law and seems to be less aggressively enforced by copyright holders. However we do not have a "fair use" clause in our law so we can't blythly claim educational use.

UkerDanno
03-26-2016, 04:29 AM
Point blank: Yes, you're being selfish.

Edit: I live in Hawai'i where this sentiment is unheard of. It would be considered "haole style." So apologies if this seems harsh, but its my background and... ...you asked. :-)

:agree: :shaka:

Rllink
03-26-2016, 06:21 AM
I provide the songs that our Ukulele club uses for their meetings. I obtain these files from various internet locations where they are freely available. I then select and edit the files so they provide useful pdf's that are broadcast to a large screen at our meetings. I email a link to the songs for the members of our group. I usually remove the songs that we aren't currently using. Some members are irritated because I do not leave all of our songs on the online location.
I feel a bit selfish by removing them but, since I spend considerable time searching for and editing these songs it bothers me that they will quite possibly be used by groups other than our own. Am I being selfish in this regard?
I'm saying this in a nice way, at least in my heart I am, but let's face it, it goes both ways. So take a look here, and you will find a lot of songs already in pdfs, and it is freely available to anyone. http://www.scorpexuke.com/

Alleyoop
03-26-2016, 07:12 AM
Once again, Thanx to all, and Ukulele Underground for the intelligent and informative responses to my Post. If any of you are touring the Island (Vancouver Island, that is) you are most welcome to strum along with us at the Filberg Rec center here in Courtenay, British Columbia. And in my newfound spirit of 'Ohana', here is a link to our music (not complete .... but will be). We don't have a website as of yet ..... I'm working on that. http://1drv.ms/1RwdM70
Cheers

Gillian
03-26-2016, 09:07 AM
An incident that annoyed me was when someone copied some of our club's song sheets and replaced our club's name with theirs. The evidence was they also copied the same minor errors (chords not quite over the correct lyric) that were on our song sheets, (which have since been corrected).

Not a cool thing to do, IMO, but as the saying goes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I guess.

It IS a labour of uke love to come up with quality song sheets. We are constantly tweaking ours to include timing dots and measure bars which really help a group to play a song correctly. Enjoy! http://sanjoseukeclub.org/song_book.html

Recstar24
03-26-2016, 09:34 AM
Gillian,

I LOVE your song charts! The black dots is really a clever and non obtrusive way of showing the beat. I also really appreciate the bar lines, as a music teacher it's nice to see some semblance of musical notation for such an informal way of displaying music.

I stumbled upon your lava song after watching inside out and googled the song, yours popped up. My own students have enjoyed it immensely!

Thanks for sharing! I hope it's ok if I look further at songs I might be able to use in my own classes, with due credit of course.

Gillian
03-26-2016, 01:23 PM
Gillian,

I LOVE your song charts! The black dots is really a clever and non obtrusive way of showing the beat. I also really appreciate the bar lines, as a music teacher it's nice to see some semblance of musical notation for such an informal way of displaying music.

I stumbled upon your lava song after watching inside out and googled the song, yours popped up. My own students have enjoyed it immensely!

Thanks for sharing! I hope it's ok if I look further at songs I might be able to use in my own classes, with due credit of course.

I'm glad you and your students like our song sheets. I appreciate your gracious comments. :D

Our song sheets have undergone a metamorphosis... slowly improving them to try to make them as close to notation as possible with timing dots, measure bars, rests, etc. I know there are lots of songs that we still have to re-format but we'll get them all done eventually.

Recstar24
03-26-2016, 02:03 PM
I'm glad you and your students like our song sheets. I appreciate your gracious comments. :D

Our song sheets have undergone a metamorphosis... slowly improving them to try to make them as close to notation as possible with timing dots, measure bars, rests, etc. I know there are lots of songs that we still have to re-format but we'll get them all done eventually.

Truly, I'm super impressed how clean your sheets are and how much rhythmic information the timing dots and bar lines convey. In many aspects, that style can be preferable to real notation which can be intimidating to many new players. The two uke clubs I'm a part of use your traditional song lyric sheets and unless you know the song, you truly are guessing or listening to others for the sense of pulse, whereas your sheets someone can get a good sense of the best the way you haVe them marked.

Question - are you using Microsoft word for your sheets, manually spacing out with space bar to get the dots lined up perfectly? Do you have any tips for someone like me who will want to create and modify all his song sheets for his students? I have an adult uke class I will be teaching in the fall and I figure I should stArT getting to work modifying my current song sheets as well as making future ones in your style.

Gillian
03-26-2016, 08:54 PM
Yes, we use Word. Copying and pasting the bolded dots (single, double, triple, and quadruple) and repeated chord lines on the clipboard makes things easier. The diagrams are from Uke Farm's wonderful, free, "Chordette" font program. We use the Ariel font at 12 point and set the page for single line spacing.

Good luck!

hawaii 50
03-26-2016, 09:07 PM
Yes, we use Word. Copying and pasting the bolded dots (single, double, triple, and quadruple) and repeated chord lines on the clipboard makes things easier. The diagrams are from Uke Farm's wonderful, free, "Chordette" font program. We use the Ariel font at 12 point and set the page for single line spacing.

Good luck!

Thanks Gillian..i just looked at your songbook....nice to see you here....are you going to see Sarah and Craig in Cupertino.....say Hi to all for me....

I used to look at your song book when I lived in Calif. did not know it was you....:)

FiL
03-27-2016, 02:44 AM
I've written up hundreds of charts for a local acoustic jam group, so I understand the OP's mixed feelings. I can spend hours just on a single chord chart, because most of what I've found on the Internet is incorrect, incomplete, or both. I often feel like the time I spend on these charts is under-appreciated, but I get some enjoyment out of making them. Our group has about 2000 song charts now and all charts are available all the time, because they are widely used for many formal and informal jams and performances by many bands that have formed out of our group. I'm happy that people are using them.

In an attempt to mollify my concerns about copyright issues, I no longer post them publicly. Instead, we use Dropbox to share the files. I use the paid version of Dropbox so I can control who can delete a file, and it has worked really well for us. We have about 250 people sharing the folder.

- FiL

ksiegel
03-27-2016, 10:56 AM
I will write up lead sheets for the uke groups I play with, and hand them out at the meetings, with a "Keep it if you want to" comment. Others hand out song books of lead sheets/ notation that they have made, and collect them at the end of the meeting.

One of the groups uses Meet-up, and posts the files on the site, available only to members.

In both cases, I also hand out sheets from the San Jose Ukulele Club, with the club's name on the page, AND stating where it came from, because I am a member, albeit distance-challenged. (However, one of the other members of the Electric City Ukulele Club here in Schenectady is also a SJUC member, and gets there a lot more often than I do.)

I don't read music, and tabs confuse the hell out of me, but I've been following lead sheets (aka chord sheets) for nearly 45 years, and while what I play isn't always identical to the lead sheet, I will always provide a copy of my lead sheet to anyone who asks, UNLESS I am specifically asked not to by the copyright holder. I try to include the name of the writer(s) whenever possible, and sometimes even have the complete copyright information.

And sometimes, I just go to Chordie.


-Kurt

igorthebarbarian
03-27-2016, 11:40 AM
Completely understandable to want to protect that which you helped create. I have this same ethical dilemma at work with documentations/ training that I write.

Jim Yates
03-27-2016, 01:05 PM
I see a lot of confusion over the terms "Tab", "Chord sheets" and "Lead sheets" and I think most of us are talking about chord sheets.

Here is Wiki's definition of "lead sheets":
A lead sheet is a form of musical notation that specifies the essential elements of a popular song: the melody, lyrics and harmony. The melody is written in modern Western music notation, the lyric is written as text below the staff and the harmony is specified with chord symbols above the staff.

What Gillian has shown is a chord sheet with some clarification for the players as to the rhythm. It is a well done, clear chord sheet and anyone who knows the song will have no trouble using it, but a chord sheet, unlike a lead sheet, assumes that you know what the melody of the song goes like and just provides the lyrics and chords. I believe this is what we are talking about here. Am I wrong?

ksiegel
03-28-2016, 10:15 AM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - but that wiki definition of "lead sheet" looks like what we find in a "fake book". What you call a "chord sheet" I've been calling a "lead sheet" since I was in Junior High School in the late 60's - early 70's, so I will have to continue to do so - 45+ years of habit wins over published definition, I'm afraid. (g) But seeing as I can't play a song unless I have some inklng of the melody - and don't always need anything other than the melody to do so - I'll just quote Iris DeMent: "I'll let the mystery be".


-Kurt




I see a lot of confusion over the terms "Tab", "Chord sheets" and "Lead sheets" and I think most of us are talking about chord sheets.

Here is Wiki's definition of "lead sheets":
A lead sheet is a form of musical notation that specifies the essential elements of a popular song: the melody, lyrics and harmony. The melody is written in modern Western music notation, the lyric is written as text below the staff and the harmony is specified with chord symbols above the staff.

What Gillian has shown is a chord sheet with some clarification for the players as to the rhythm. It is a well done, clear chord sheet and anyone who knows the song will have no trouble using it, but a chord sheet, unlike a lead sheet, assumes that you know what the melody of the song goes like and just provides the lyrics and chords. I believe this is what we are talking about here. Am I wrong?

Croaky Keith
03-28-2016, 10:19 PM
A way to remember which is which.

You can't lead if you don't have the melody - but, if you know the melody, you can use chord sheets.

Tab tells you where to put your fingers on the fretboard without you needing to know the musical note names of the frets.

Edited to add: ......& a chord chart shows you where to put your fingers to play a chord.

Jim Yates
03-29-2016, 11:14 PM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - but that wiki definition of "lead sheet" looks like what we find in a "fake book". What you call a "chord sheet" I've been calling a "lead sheet" since I was in Junior High School in the late 60's - early 70's, so I will have to continue to do so - 45+ years of habit wins over published definition, I'm afraid. (g) But seeing as I can't play a song unless I have some inklng of the melody - and don't always need anything other than the melody to do so - I'll just quote Iris DeMent: "I'll let the mystery be".


-Kurt

Language changes and evolves Kurt, and your definition may well be correct in 2016.
The word "gay" doesn't have the same meaning today as it did when I was a lad.
The word "cover" had a different meaning a decade or two ago. Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra weren't referred to as "cover artists". In the fifties, sixties and seventies, a cover of a song meant that every lick, every harmony and even every mistake of a hit song was copied note for note, often by very talented studio musicians who were being paid scale for their efforts. This meant that companies like K-Tel could produce records of compilations of the current hit songs that were "just as good as the originals" (Note the quotes) for a fraction of the cost of doing a compilation using the original artists. An artist who did their own version of a song they didn't write were not said to be doing a "cover", just doing their version. Musicians like Woody Guthrie, Josh White, Ramblin' Jack and Joan Baez all did versions of House Of The Rising Sun which they'd probably learned from one of many blues or old time artists. They all used the same chord progression and melody and told the same story with some minor changes, but their versions were all very different from each other. Dave Van Ronk changed the tune and chord progression, intentionally or accidentally. Bob Dylan copied Dave's tune and changes, but his Rising Sun sounded nothing like Dave's. The Animals learned the song from Dylan's first album and made it a folk rock hit, changing the sex of the prostitute from female to male since Eric Burdon wasn't comfortable singing "Being so young and foolish poor girl, I let a rambler lead me astray". None of these versions of Rising Sun were called "covers" because they were so different from each other. Today, anyone who sings Rising Sun, or any song they didn't write themselves, no matter how much they make it their own individual version, is considered to be playing a "cover".
What you call "lead sheet", others call "tab", others (me at least) call a "chord sheet". My wife often tells me I'm still livin' in the sixties, especially when she thinks it's time for me to get a haircut.