Mammoth v Elephant Ivory nut,saddle, do you really know?

I pulled this post from another thread as a topic came up that I thought was interesting and really was better suited as a post.

For those interested in identification, this is a good reference. I was on safari in Africa and saw the slaughtered ivory confiscated in a shipping container. Much of it is told to people to be mammoth but it is not. The Chinese pay Somali's who cross the border and enter Tanzania and Kenya and are killing 30,000 elephants a year. This is the #1 source of the ivory trade in China which of course is sold all over the world from China..some showing up they say as "fossilized mammoth".

Identifying ivory as mammoth is NOT simple in many cases. You have to compare Schreger lines in which a process is used with cross section comparisons and specific measurements are taken of specific angles.

You will never know if you really have mammoth ivory unless someone can prove this test and provides proof if asked or of course is an expert and can do their examination and measurements of the Schreger lines and can also provide the evidence.

If there is Vivianite (type of phosphorus stain) present, then you can almost be certain it is mammoth, and so this visual examination can discern the two by Fish and Game but it's not always the case. It is not a simple plain eye detection if there is no vivianite present.


This guide can be used to identify all the various ivory out there.

http://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php#elephant
https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/resources/pub/E-Ivory-guide.pdf


My big question is how much mammoth is really out there? How do those who are selling "fossilized Mammoth (Mastadon)" nuts or saddles really know they are not buying and selling Elephant ivory? Are buyers provided certification of some type? I am curious for those who buy or sell it, how are you sure?

Given what you've learned, I'd say it's a classic case of caveat emptor. I know of at least one dealer who is very highly regarded, but I have no idea what or where his sources are.

I've never used any sort of ivory on a guitar or uke, so I don't have a point of reference. But to my ear and eye, cow bone is an excellent nut and saddle material, and it's both plentiful and non-endangered.

I would be skeptical of real mammoth Ivory without some proof as it seems you can always get it and you don't hear of mammoth's being found every week so what is the real supply? No one can say. A nut and saddle without the visual Vivianite ( and if you really knew what that was) I think it's a crap shoot paying a premium for something that in most cases will not make a discernible difference compared to other bone. I have switched out a saddle that was corian for real cow bone and it made no difference at all that I could tell.

I would suspect the same between mammoth and cow, although the fossilized bone would be denser like corian, I am not sure beyond a certain density you would pick up any benefits. I think it's more of a "I have something rare or unique" more so than adding some musical benefit to the instrument. Again, just an opinion, but an interesting topic nonetheless for those of us who purchase custom instruments.

Maybe Chuck will chime in?
He uses it in his scrimshaw.
Im sure he's done his homework on it.

Thanks for posting this. I hope everyone will think twice before purchasing anything with ivory. You can't be sure if you're supporting poachers, the lowest of the low.

blue_knight_usa said:

I think it's more of a "I have something rare or unique" more so than adding some musical benefit to the instrument.

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I agree. And suspect if one asked about sources it would be "I got it from a really good guy who said it was mammoth" and if the ivory was counterfeit mammoth so could be any certification offered.

Why go there at all?

blue_knight_usa said:

My big question is how much mammoth is really out there?

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First, this is a very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.
Also, I found this in my research, from Wiki:

"It is estimated that 46,750 mammoths have been excavated during the first 250 years since Siberia became part of Russia.[84]
In the early 19th century mammoth ivory was used, as substantial source, for such products as piano keys, billiard balls, and ornamental boxes.
Some estimates suggest that 10 million mammoths still remain buried in Siberia. "
Found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_trade

I read somewhere that there is no discernible difference between ivory parts and "regular" parts. Anyway, how good does the "tone" have to be? If one is plugged in or playing with a group does a ukulele's "sound" really matter?

It seems to me, reading about all the string and nut and bridge and tuner experimentation goin' on in the forum, that we should have a lot of "ace" Ukists here. You'd think the airwaves would be flooded with beautiful sounding ukulele music flowing from every corner.

Ahhh, well . . . I guess I'm just having a bad morning. Sorry if I 'roused anyone's ire. ld:

In the past, I have worked with many ivories including elephant, walrus and mammoth. They all look different and work different under the knife. Of those three, mammoth is the softest and looks nothing like elephant or walrus. In the late 90's I bought a pile of mammoth ivory cut-offs that a person was selling on ebay. There was enough pieces there to fill a kitchen draw to the brim. From these ivory chunks I made hundreds of ivory guitar picks and many nut and saddles. Mammoth ivory is not white in color like elephant or walrus, it is dark cream color to caramel color and sometimes orange and even blues. This stuff is old and looks and smells like its age.

The hardest of the three to work is Walrus IMO. I don't use Walrus or Elephant ivory for nuts and saddles, and actually don't use it for anything these days since the laws have gone crazy. Good quality bone is just as good as ivory for sound transmission and of course is plentiful and still legal. I hate plastics and the man made stuff many companies are using now, the stuff is cheap, cheap, cheap. When I bought a Martin D-28 in 1969 it had bone for the nut and saddle. Now, Martin uses some plastic stuff. If you pay $3000 plus for a nice guitar, don't you think they could at least use a bone saddle and nut?

blue_knight_usa said:

I would be skeptical of real mammoth Ivory without some proof as it seems you can always get it and you don't hear of mammoth's being found every week so what is the real supply? No one can say. A nut and saddle without the visual Vivianite ( and if you really knew what that was) I think it's a crap shoot paying a premium for something that in most cases will not make a discernible difference compared to other bone. I have switched out a saddle that was corian for real cow bone and it made no difference at all that I could tell.

I would suspect the same between mammoth and cow, although the fossilized bone would be denser like corian, I am not sure beyond a certain density you would pick up any benefits. I think it's more of a "I have something rare or unique" more so than adding some musical benefit to the instrument. Again, just an opinion, but an interesting topic nonetheless for those of us who purchase custom instruments.

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johnson430 said:

First, this is a very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.
Also, I found this in my research, from Wiki:

"It is estimated that 46,750 mammoths have been excavated during the first 250 years since Siberia became part of Russia.[84]
In the early 19th century mammoth ivory was used, as substantial source, for such products as piano keys, billiard balls, and ornamental boxes.
Some estimates suggest that 10 million mammoths still remain buried in Siberia. "
Found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_trade

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That would certainly supply a lot of Ivory for a long time!

BlackBearUkes said:

In the past, I have worked with many ivories including elephant, walrus and mammoth. They all look different and work different under the knife. Of those three, mammoth is the softest and looks nothing like elephant or walrus. In the late 90's I bought a pile of mammoth ivory cut-offs that a person was selling on ebay. There was enough pieces there to fill a kitchen draw to the brim. From these ivory chunks I made hundreds of ivory guitar picks and many nut and saddles. Mammoth ivory is not white in color like elephant or walrus, it is dark cream color to caramel color and sometimes orange and even blues. This stuff is old and looks and smells like its age.

The hardest of the three to work is Walrus IMO. I don't use Walrus or Elephant ivory for nuts and saddles, and actually don't use it for anything these days since the laws have gone crazy. Good quality bone is just as good as ivory for sound transmission and of course is plentiful and still legal. I hate plastics and the man made stuff many companies are using now, the stuff is cheap, cheap, cheap. When I bought a Martin D-28 in 1969 it had bone for the nut and saddle. Now, Martin uses some plastic stuff. If you pay $3000 plus for a nice guitar, don't you think they could at least use a bone saddle and nut?

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I do agree for those prices I would not want plastic anything. One of my best sounding custom ukes is a concert and uses a bone nut and Rosewood saddle. Then again I have seen corian saddles so I would think you could use many types of materials for nuts and saddles just as you use different woods for the instrument.

I insist on unicorn horn for the saddles and nuts on all my ukes.

Picker Jon said:

I insist on unicorn horn for the saddles and nuts on all my ukes.

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But how do you know it's real unicorn? :biglaugh:

Picker Jon said:

I insist on unicorn horn for the saddles and nuts on all my ukes.

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Yeah, it's really the thing for improving one's tone. What about a piece of dragons tooth--almost as good. ld:

blue_knight_usa said:

I do agree for those prices I would not want plastic anything. One of my best sounding custom ukes is a concert and uses a bone nut and Rosewood saddle. Then again I have seen corian saddles so I would think you could use many types of materials for nuts and saddles just as you use different woods for the instrument.

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I have two top-of-the-line tenor ukuleles, and both of the luthiers elected to use Tusq for the saddles. Probably says something, those choices.

I want to talk about the legalization of ivory and the possible banning of all types of ivory. Fossil ivories (thousands of years old) are legal to buy and sell in the USA in all but three states. It is legal to own fossil ivories however in all states. Elephant ivory has been banned since the CITES act went into effect in the early 70s. Same thing for whale teeth (and hippo and rhino horn). Shame on the people who use or trade in any of these products.
While the lay person may not be able to tell the difference it is fairly easy to distinguish fossil mammoth/mastodon from all other species in the hands of someone educated to tell the difference. Shoot, I've seen people here post photos of their ukes and ask what kind of wood it is, sometimes not knowing the difference between koa and mahogany. But any good woodworker would know at a glance. It just takes some education. When visual inspection is doubtful there are other methods to use. As Duane pointed out, the color, the grain pattern and the smell (smells like mold)is very unique. The color of fossil ivories is very unique, having taken up the color of the minerals in the soil in which it was buried. Most that I've seen has been tan to light brown and often dark brown, many times with pink, blue or green streaks in it. The consideration to ban fossil mammoth/mastodon ivory is simply a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water and maybe we have to lose a few babies in this case. If that's how we can protect the elephant herds (which I doubt) then I fully support it. I began working with fossil ivories in the mid 70's, just after the CITES act came into effect. (I've never used anything but fossil ivories.) The excavation for fossil walrus and mastodon ivory has been allowed only by native tribes and many of the villages in Alaska and Arctic regions are supported primarily through the sales of this ivory which can be anywhere from 5000 years old (in the case of fossil walrus ivory) and 50,000 years old (mastodon.) There is no black market for fossil mastodon ivory and a few people aren't getting rich from it'
As far as me using animal products for nuts and saddles personally, I switched a while back from cow bone (from animals they kill BTW) to "Tusq", which is some kind of plastic or chemical animal I think. I have used fossil mastodon ivories in some of my inlay work. (Any reputable source will give you an authentication certificate.)

I am indeed an animal lover. When I was younger I used to fish and even kill chickens to eat. I haven't done either for over 20 years because I haven't the heart for it any more. I hope the ban works to prevent the greedy and brutal slaughter of these majestic elephants. Unfortunately i don't think it will. Some sources think that the killing of elephants will even increase as the black market prices for elephant ivory also increases. Banning doesn't work. Sensible regulation, adequate staffing and training does. (BTW, there will still be plenty of ivory tusks from dead and culled ("problem") animals; these used to be tagged and sold by the department of wildlife to support protection efforts.) Banning didn't work with alcohol in the 20's. The war on drugs has failed and many states are now legalizing marijuana for both medicinal and recreational use. I think (I hope) that in 100 years we will look back and see just how barbaric it was to kill any animals for profit, sport or even food. (BTW, how come there's no ban on trophy hunting?) Again, I hope the proposed total ban on all ivories (including the fossil varieties) in some states does more good than harm. I'm afraid there will always be bad guys around though that make all of our intentions impossible. All we can do is try. And lose some babies in the mean time.

So exactly what is pre-ban elephant ivory? I know Bob Colosi offers legal elephant ivory saddles, nuts, and bridge pins that is documented.

John

70sSanO said:

So exactly what is pre-ban elephant ivory? I know Bob Colosi offers legal elephant ivory saddles, nuts, and bridge pins that is documented.

John

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Pre-ban ivory refers to elephant ivory only. It is that which has been documented before 1972 when the CITES Treaty became enacted. If you can prove you've owned it before this date then I believe it's legal to trade. That could have changed now as I haven't followed the elephant ivory ban closely because it doesn't concern me. There is no pre-ban fossil mammoth/mastodon/walrus ivory because it is currently legal in most states. But the laws are constantly changing and it's very confusing, at least to me. Here's a link from a supplier that I used to buy fossil mastodon from that outlines the law pretty simply but bear in mind this was written last year and things may have changed:

http://www.boonetrading.com/Pg18.html

(BTW, I'd still feel creepy using elephant ivory, pre-ban or not. There are other good alternatives and I don't know anyone bragging about having a protected species element in their uke. I won't even use Brazilian rosewood!)

This is the latest law that I believe goes into affect in California in July. Closes a loophole they say that allowed a lot of people to label ivory pre-ban which was prior to 1977. I know in San Francisco where I work, Chinatown has TONS of ivory and I highly doubt it's all legitimately procured. They have been busted before for illegal ivory.

http://www.ifaw.org/united-states/news/victory-governor-signs-california-ivory-ban-bill-law

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/...vory-nearly-all-sales-california-banned-after

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...-ivory-rhino-horn_us_55e75831e4b0c818f61a6392

I was taking to a game officer in Kenya who said they kill the park rangers if they don't take bribes to let them hunt so there are many corrupt officials. The military there has no resources, no money, no aircraft. Send some Apache gunships over there on a "War against poaching" because you can't hide elephants being hunted.

The worst part is they kill a lot of elephants by poisoning the water sources so the elephants suffer greatly.

The "War on drugs" can never be won, so why not put resources to something you can win? I agree laws here aren't going to impact poachers that much because there is always someone to buy anything. You have to cut off the dragon at the head, but no one really knows how to do that effectively. They say in 10 years, they will be near extinct at the rate they are being killed.

Yet in South Africa they got too many elephants:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/26/environment