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View Full Version : Mammoth v Elephant Ivory nut,saddle, do you really know?



blue_knight_usa
04-09-2016, 09:43 AM
I pulled this post from another thread as a topic came up that I thought was interesting and really was better suited as a post.

For those interested in identification, this is a good reference. I was on safari in Africa and saw the slaughtered ivory confiscated in a shipping container. Much of it is told to people to be mammoth but it is not. The Chinese pay Somali's who cross the border and enter Tanzania and Kenya and are killing 30,000 elephants a year. This is the #1 source of the ivory trade in China which of course is sold all over the world from China..some showing up they say as "fossilized mammoth".

Identifying ivory as mammoth is NOT simple in many cases. You have to compare Schreger lines in which a process is used with cross section comparisons and specific measurements are taken of specific angles.

You will never know if you really have mammoth ivory unless someone can prove this test and provides proof if asked or of course is an expert and can do their examination and measurements of the Schreger lines and can also provide the evidence.

If there is Vivianite (type of phosphorus stain) present, then you can almost be certain it is mammoth, and so this visual examination can discern the two by Fish and Game but it's not always the case. It is not a simple plain eye detection if there is no vivianite present.


This guide can be used to identify all the various ivory out there.

http://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php#elephant
https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/resources/pub/E-Ivory-guide.pdf


My big question is how much mammoth is really out there? How do those who are selling "fossilized Mammoth (Mastadon)" nuts or saddles really know they are not buying and selling Elephant ivory? Are buyers provided certification of some type? I am curious for those who buy or sell it, how are you sure?

cpmusic
04-09-2016, 10:16 AM
Given what you've learned, I'd say it's a classic case of caveat emptor. I know of at least one dealer who is very highly regarded, but I have no idea what or where his sources are.

I've never used any sort of ivory on a guitar or uke, so I don't have a point of reference. But to my ear and eye, cow bone is an excellent nut and saddle material, and it's both plentiful and non-endangered.

blue_knight_usa
04-09-2016, 11:16 AM
I would be skeptical of real mammoth Ivory without some proof as it seems you can always get it and you don't hear of mammoth's being found every week so what is the real supply? No one can say. A nut and saddle without the visual Vivianite ( and if you really knew what that was) I think it's a crap shoot paying a premium for something that in most cases will not make a discernible difference compared to other bone. I have switched out a saddle that was corian for real cow bone and it made no difference at all that I could tell.

I would suspect the same between mammoth and cow, although the fossilized bone would be denser like corian, I am not sure beyond a certain density you would pick up any benefits. I think it's more of a "I have something rare or unique" more so than adding some musical benefit to the instrument. Again, just an opinion, but an interesting topic nonetheless for those of us who purchase custom instruments.

spookelele
04-09-2016, 12:30 PM
Maybe Chuck will chime in?
He uses it in his scrimshaw.
Im sure he's done his homework on it.

bonesoup
04-10-2016, 03:24 AM
Thanks for posting this. I hope everyone will think twice before purchasing anything with ivory. You can't be sure if you're supporting poachers, the lowest of the low.

Kayak Jim
04-10-2016, 04:33 AM
I think it's more of a "I have something rare or unique" more so than adding some musical benefit to the instrument.

I agree. And suspect if one asked about sources it would be "I got it from a really good guy who said it was mammoth" and if the ivory was counterfeit mammoth so could be any certification offered.

Why go there at all?

johnson430
04-10-2016, 05:03 AM
My big question is how much mammoth is really out there?

First, this is a very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.
Also, I found this in my research, from Wiki:

"It is estimated that 46,750 mammoths have been excavated during the first 250 years since Siberia became part of Russia.[84]
In the early 19th century mammoth ivory was used, as substantial source, for such products as piano keys, billiard balls, and ornamental boxes.
Some estimates suggest that 10 million mammoths still remain buried in Siberia. "
Found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_trade

Down Up Dick
04-10-2016, 05:07 AM
I read somewhere that there is no discernible difference between ivory parts and "regular" parts. Anyway, how good does the "tone" have to be? If one is plugged in or playing with a group does a ukulele's "sound" really matter?

It seems to me, reading about all the string and nut and bridge and tuner experimentation goin' on in the forum, that we should have a lot of "ace" Ukists here. You'd think the airwaves would be flooded with beautiful sounding ukulele music flowing from every corner.

Ahhh, well . . . I guess I'm just having a bad morning. Sorry if I 'roused anyone's ire. :old:

BlackBearUkes
04-10-2016, 05:51 AM
In the past, I have worked with many ivories including elephant, walrus and mammoth. They all look different and work different under the knife. Of those three, mammoth is the softest and looks nothing like elephant or walrus. In the late 90's I bought a pile of mammoth ivory cut-offs that a person was selling on ebay. There was enough pieces there to fill a kitchen draw to the brim. From these ivory chunks I made hundreds of ivory guitar picks and many nut and saddles. Mammoth ivory is not white in color like elephant or walrus, it is dark cream color to caramel color and sometimes orange and even blues. This stuff is old and looks and smells like its age.

The hardest of the three to work is Walrus IMO. I don't use Walrus or Elephant ivory for nuts and saddles, and actually don't use it for anything these days since the laws have gone crazy. Good quality bone is just as good as ivory for sound transmission and of course is plentiful and still legal. I hate plastics and the man made stuff many companies are using now, the stuff is cheap, cheap, cheap. When I bought a Martin D-28 in 1969 it had bone for the nut and saddle. Now, Martin uses some plastic stuff. If you pay $3000 plus for a nice guitar, don't you think they could at least use a bone saddle and nut?


I would be skeptical of real mammoth Ivory without some proof as it seems you can always get it and you don't hear of mammoth's being found every week so what is the real supply? No one can say. A nut and saddle without the visual Vivianite ( and if you really knew what that was) I think it's a crap shoot paying a premium for something that in most cases will not make a discernible difference compared to other bone. I have switched out a saddle that was corian for real cow bone and it made no difference at all that I could tell.

I would suspect the same between mammoth and cow, although the fossilized bone would be denser like corian, I am not sure beyond a certain density you would pick up any benefits. I think it's more of a "I have something rare or unique" more so than adding some musical benefit to the instrument. Again, just an opinion, but an interesting topic nonetheless for those of us who purchase custom instruments.

blue_knight_usa
04-10-2016, 08:59 AM
First, this is a very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.
Also, I found this in my research, from Wiki:

"It is estimated that 46,750 mammoths have been excavated during the first 250 years since Siberia became part of Russia.[84]
In the early 19th century mammoth ivory was used, as substantial source, for such products as piano keys, billiard balls, and ornamental boxes.
Some estimates suggest that 10 million mammoths still remain buried in Siberia. "
Found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_trade

That would certainly supply a lot of Ivory for a long time!

blue_knight_usa
04-10-2016, 09:08 AM
In the past, I have worked with many ivories including elephant, walrus and mammoth. They all look different and work different under the knife. Of those three, mammoth is the softest and looks nothing like elephant or walrus. In the late 90's I bought a pile of mammoth ivory cut-offs that a person was selling on ebay. There was enough pieces there to fill a kitchen draw to the brim. From these ivory chunks I made hundreds of ivory guitar picks and many nut and saddles. Mammoth ivory is not white in color like elephant or walrus, it is dark cream color to caramel color and sometimes orange and even blues. This stuff is old and looks and smells like its age.

The hardest of the three to work is Walrus IMO. I don't use Walrus or Elephant ivory for nuts and saddles, and actually don't use it for anything these days since the laws have gone crazy. Good quality bone is just as good as ivory for sound transmission and of course is plentiful and still legal. I hate plastics and the man made stuff many companies are using now, the stuff is cheap, cheap, cheap. When I bought a Martin D-28 in 1969 it had bone for the nut and saddle. Now, Martin uses some plastic stuff. If you pay $3000 plus for a nice guitar, don't you think they could at least use a bone saddle and nut?

I do agree for those prices I would not want plastic anything. One of my best sounding custom ukes is a concert and uses a bone nut and Rosewood saddle. Then again I have seen corian saddles so I would think you could use many types of materials for nuts and saddles just as you use different woods for the instrument.

Picker Jon
04-10-2016, 09:24 AM
I insist on unicorn horn for the saddles and nuts on all my ukes.

blue_knight_usa
04-10-2016, 09:30 AM
I insist on unicorn horn for the saddles and nuts on all my ukes.

But how do you know it's real unicorn? :biglaugh:

Down Up Dick
04-10-2016, 09:33 AM
I insist on unicorn horn for the saddles and nuts on all my ukes.

Yeah, it's really the thing for improving one's tone. What about a piece of dragons tooth--almost as good. :old:

Steveperrywriter
04-10-2016, 09:55 AM
I do agree for those prices I would not want plastic anything. One of my best sounding custom ukes is a concert and uses a bone nut and Rosewood saddle. Then again I have seen corian saddles so I would think you could use many types of materials for nuts and saddles just as you use different woods for the instrument.

I have two top-of-the-line tenor ukuleles, and both of the luthiers elected to use Tusq for the saddles. Probably says something, those choices.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
04-10-2016, 09:55 AM
I want to talk about the legalization of ivory and the possible banning of all types of ivory. Fossil ivories (thousands of years old) are legal to buy and sell in the USA in all but three states. It is legal to own fossil ivories however in all states. Elephant ivory has been banned since the CITES act went into effect in the early 70s. Same thing for whale teeth (and hippo and rhino horn). Shame on the people who use or trade in any of these products.
While the lay person may not be able to tell the difference it is fairly easy to distinguish fossil mammoth/mastodon from all other species in the hands of someone educated to tell the difference. Shoot, I've seen people here post photos of their ukes and ask what kind of wood it is, sometimes not knowing the difference between koa and mahogany. But any good woodworker would know at a glance. It just takes some education. When visual inspection is doubtful there are other methods to use. As Duane pointed out, the color, the grain pattern and the smell (smells like mold)is very unique. The color of fossil ivories is very unique, having taken up the color of the minerals in the soil in which it was buried. Most that I've seen has been tan to light brown and often dark brown, many times with pink, blue or green streaks in it. The consideration to ban fossil mammoth/mastodon ivory is simply a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water and maybe we have to lose a few babies in this case. If that's how we can protect the elephant herds (which I doubt) then I fully support it. I began working with fossil ivories in the mid 70's, just after the CITES act came into effect. (I've never used anything but fossil ivories.) The excavation for fossil walrus and mastodon ivory has been allowed only by native tribes and many of the villages in Alaska and Arctic regions are supported primarily through the sales of this ivory which can be anywhere from 5000 years old (in the case of fossil walrus ivory) and 50,000 years old (mastodon.) There is no black market for fossil mastodon ivory and a few people aren't getting rich from it'
As far as me using animal products for nuts and saddles personally, I switched a while back from cow bone (from animals they kill BTW) to "Tusq", which is some kind of plastic or chemical animal I think. I have used fossil mastodon ivories in some of my inlay work. (Any reputable source will give you an authentication certificate.)

I am indeed an animal lover. When I was younger I used to fish and even kill chickens to eat. I haven't done either for over 20 years because I haven't the heart for it any more. I hope the ban works to prevent the greedy and brutal slaughter of these majestic elephants. Unfortunately i don't think it will. Some sources think that the killing of elephants will even increase as the black market prices for elephant ivory also increases. Banning doesn't work. Sensible regulation, adequate staffing and training does. (BTW, there will still be plenty of ivory tusks from dead and culled ("problem") animals; these used to be tagged and sold by the department of wildlife to support protection efforts.) Banning didn't work with alcohol in the 20's. The war on drugs has failed and many states are now legalizing marijuana for both medicinal and recreational use. I think (I hope) that in 100 years we will look back and see just how barbaric it was to kill any animals for profit, sport or even food. (BTW, how come there's no ban on trophy hunting?) Again, I hope the proposed total ban on all ivories (including the fossil varieties) in some states does more good than harm. I'm afraid there will always be bad guys around though that make all of our intentions impossible. All we can do is try. And lose some babies in the mean time.

70sSanO
04-10-2016, 02:37 PM
So exactly what is pre-ban elephant ivory? I know Bob Colosi offers legal elephant ivory saddles, nuts, and bridge pins that is documented.

John

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
04-10-2016, 03:50 PM
So exactly what is pre-ban elephant ivory? I know Bob Colosi offers legal elephant ivory saddles, nuts, and bridge pins that is documented.

John

Pre-ban ivory refers to elephant ivory only. It is that which has been documented before 1972 when the CITES Treaty became enacted. If you can prove you've owned it before this date then I believe it's legal to trade. That could have changed now as I haven't followed the elephant ivory ban closely because it doesn't concern me. There is no pre-ban fossil mammoth/mastodon/walrus ivory because it is currently legal in most states. But the laws are constantly changing and it's very confusing, at least to me. Here's a link from a supplier that I used to buy fossil mastodon from that outlines the law pretty simply but bear in mind this was written last year and things may have changed:

http://www.boonetrading.com/Pg18.html

(BTW, I'd still feel creepy using elephant ivory, pre-ban or not. There are other good alternatives and I don't know anyone bragging about having a protected species element in their uke. I won't even use Brazilian rosewood!)

blue_knight_usa
04-11-2016, 05:09 AM
This is the latest law that I believe goes into affect in California in July. Closes a loophole they say that allowed a lot of people to label ivory pre-ban which was prior to 1977. I know in San Francisco where I work, Chinatown has TONS of ivory and I highly doubt it's all legitimately procured. They have been busted before for illegal ivory.

http://www.ifaw.org/united-states/news/victory-governor-signs-california-ivory-ban-bill-law

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_28920271/elephant-ivory-nearly-all-sales-california-banned-after

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/california-passes-sweeping-ban-on-elephant-ivory-rhino-horn_us_55e75831e4b0c818f61a6392

I was taking to a game officer in Kenya who said they kill the park rangers if they don't take bribes to let them hunt so there are many corrupt officials. The military there has no resources, no money, no aircraft. Send some Apache gunships over there on a "War against poaching" because you can't hide elephants being hunted.

The worst part is they kill a lot of elephants by poisoning the water sources so the elephants suffer greatly.

The "War on drugs" can never be won, so why not put resources to something you can win? I agree laws here aren't going to impact poachers that much because there is always someone to buy anything. You have to cut off the dragon at the head, but no one really knows how to do that effectively. They say in 10 years, they will be near extinct at the rate they are being killed.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
04-11-2016, 06:10 AM
Yet in South Africa they got too many elephants:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/26/environment

hollisdwyer
04-11-2016, 07:04 AM
I had always drunk the kool aid when it came to preferring bone or ivory for nuts, saddles and pins but when respected luthiers recommend materials like Tusq and the recommendation is based on the sonic quality of that material, I have to put aside my pervious perceptions and take note.

blue_knight_usa
04-11-2016, 07:06 AM
90124901229012390125We had a herd pass through in Tarangire and then hung out with us for about 30 minutes eating. It was a very moving experience seeing them interact with each other, socializing and playing. Yes, culling seems to be a necessary evil which was never needed until people got involved. Hopefully people can be more educated, but unfortunately when government and bureaucracy are involved it seems actions are taken in the wrong direction or not taken at all because they are afraid to make the "right" decisions because of special interest groups. As a photographer, going to Africa is like a ukulele player getting a Mo' Bettah.....it's a bucket list item well worth the journey.

cpmusic
04-11-2016, 08:45 AM
I had always drunk the kool aid when it came to preferring bone or ivory for nuts, saddles and pins but when respected luthiers recommend materials like Tusq and the recommendation is based on the sonic quality of that material, I have to put aside my pervious perceptions and take note.

I agree regarding ivory, but not with bone. Tusq may look better under the microscope (so to speak) and it's far better than plastic. But to my ear, at least with steel strings, Tusq is overly bright to the point of sounding brittle. It's also softer than bone, so it wears faster at the nut and saddle. Wear probably isn't much of an issue with nylon or similar strings, but bone holds up much better under steel. I've seen years-old bone saddles that show virtually no wear, compared with months-old Tusq saddles with grooves from steel strings. And unlike Tusq, bone polishes up to a nice sheen.

Just my two cents. YMMV.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
04-11-2016, 10:15 AM
When I build I can make adjustments in my technique or the woods used to make an uke that is bright, warm, sweet, loud or subdued. Those are characteristics built in the uke that saddle material will only have a slight affect on. What I like about a composite saddle is it's consistency. Whereas bone and ivory have can be all over the place with regard to porosity, weight, and consistency, with a composite I know what to expect uke after uke. I've built hundreds of ukes with bone saddles and only several dozen with Tusq and for now at least, for what I want to hear in an uke, I prefer Tusq. I think all these materials have their place given a specific instance. As always, experiment on your own and see if you get the results you like.

spookelele
04-11-2016, 11:25 AM
Yet in South Africa they got too many elephants:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/26/environment

Why can't they relocate them to where there aren't enough?
Seems like something the elephants would benefit from.

or is it because a bullet is cheaper than the petrol?

ksiegel
04-11-2016, 03:59 PM
Why can't they relocate them to where there aren't enough?
Seems like something the elephants would benefit from.

or is it because a bullet is cheaper than the petrol?

The article Chuck points to specifically says:

Amid words of protest and expressions of relief environment minister Martinus van Schalkwyk announced
the elephant had been a victim of its own success with numbers growing from 8,000 to nearly 20,000 in national
parks and private reserves in just over a decade.

Unveiling a new conservation plan he stressed that the killing of excess animals would only be allowed once all other
available options - including translocation and contraception - had been ruled out.

cpmusic
04-11-2016, 04:44 PM
When I build I can make adjustments in my technique or the woods used to make an uke that is bright, warm, sweet, loud or subdued. Those are characteristics built in the uke that saddle material will only have a slight affect on. What I like about a composite saddle is it's consistency. Whereas bone and ivory have can be all over the place with regard to porosity, weight, and consistency, with a composite I know what to expect uke after uke.

I expect consistency is the reason large guitar companies use it. And on a ukulele, I wouldn't expect it to make a great deal of difference. But saddle material matters more on steel string guitars, at least to my ear. Bone gives me a rounder, clearer tone, and it stands up better to the wear of steel strings. The tonal difference is subtle, but it works for me, especially on a guitar that's bright by design.

That said, I have a Martin 000-15 which has a Micarta saddle, and I love the tone as it is, so the Micarta stays.

70sSanO
04-11-2016, 04:46 PM
I think that article is from 2008. Later articles seem indicate massive poaching since that timeframe threatens extinction of the elephant kingdom.

At the bottom of this is the overall instability of governments on nearly the entire continent. There is no industrialization and ivory, as well poaching of tigers, is an easy source of income that most government officials profit from.

Elephants are just a means to an end.

John

Nickie
04-11-2016, 06:59 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Chuck. Just because an animal's body part works better, doesn't mean we should use it. I am so dead set against animal testing too, it should be banned altogether. Trophy hunting is for idiots. Anyone who would knowingly buy elephant ivory is not even a good excuse for a human.
I feel so adamantly strong about this that if I were young and could do as I please, I'd become a poacher hunter, like the young heroine I read about last year. She carries a high powered rifle and pistol and hunts down and kills the poachers. And who's to say I might not even set traps for trophy hunters, and maybe try to scare them off?
I am completely ok with Tusq nuts and saddles, especially where nylon strings are concerned.
If I offended anyone, I didn't mean to, I am just very passionate about animal's rights.

UkieOkie
04-11-2016, 07:55 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Chuck. Just because an animal's body part works better, doesn't mean we should use it. I am so dead set against animal testing too, it should be banned altogether. Trophy hunting is for a-holes. Anyone who would knowingly buy elephant ivory is an a-hole.
I feel so adamantly strong about this that if I were young and could do as I please, I'd become a poacher hunter, like the young heroine I read about last year. She carries a high powered rifle and pistol and hunts down and kills the hunters. And who's to say I might not even set traps for trophy hunters?
I am completely ok with Tusq nuts and saddles, especially where nylon strings are concerned.
If I offended anyone, I didn't mean to, I am just very passionate about animal's rights.

Nickie, what do you define as a trophy hunter and for what reason would feel justified in killing them? If these "trophy hunters" are hunting within guidelines and laws for responsible harvesting, and if the animals parts(meat, hide, and bone) are not wasted, then what is wrong with this sort of hunting? Every effort should be made to quickly and cleanly harvest the animal, just as in a properly ran slaughterhouse.

Responsible use and management is most often funded by hunters, like myself, who deeply care about the preservation [I]and[I] utilization of our animals. Sustainabiity is the key.

Everything dies. We all cause animal death regularly. Are you a vegan? Do you drive? Do you live in a home or apartment? Do you utilize paved roadways? All of those things kill animals. We are animals and we have to interact with nature. It uses us and we use it. And, yes, sometimes we pollute it and destroy it, and sometimes we work to maintain it and restore it. But no matter how we slice it, we cause death to animals. If I didn't shoot that deer, then she may have been hit by a car or who knows what, but what I do know is that she would have died someday, and it would have likely been by getting hit by a car or by getting older and slower and being dragged down and eaten alive by coyotes. I don't begrudge the coyotes. I don't envy the deer but I do love and admire it.

Everything eats and is eaten. The most devout vegans still must eat. And unless they only eat things they forage for in their immediate area then they contribute to substantial animal death. If we eat any farmed products like wheat, soy, corn, rice, quinoa, beans, lettuce, carrots, etc, then we contribute a great deal. Have you ever plowed, combined, or hayed a field? I have. Sorrowfully I have destroyed nests of baby turkey and young deer and countless thousands of gophers and moles and a whole host of animals. It is a sad fact of the feeding of our masses that death happens so life can happen.

For the record I don't like trophy hunting because of its lack of emphasis on the animal for sustainance, but as long as the animal is used by the hunter or those in need, then I see nothing wrong with it, and I can not for the life of me think why you would feel justified in killing trophy hunters or anyone for that matter.

Nickie
04-12-2016, 04:09 AM
Nickie, what do you define as a trophy hunter and for what reason would feel justified in killing them? If these "trophy hunters" are hunting within guidelines and laws for responsible harvesting, and if the animals parts(meat, hide, and bone) are not wasted, then what is wrong with this sort of hunting? Every effort should be made to quickly and cleanly harvest the animal, just as in a properly ran slaughterhouse.

Responsible use and management is most often funded by hunters, like myself, who deeply care about the preservation [I]and[I] utilization of our animals. Sustainability is the key.

Everything dies. We all cause animal death regularly. Are you a vegan? Do you drive? Do you live in a home or apartment? Do you utilize paved roadways? All of those things kill animals. We are animals and we have to interact with nature. It uses us and we use it. And, yes, sometimes we pollute it and destroy it, and sometimes we work to maintain it and restore it. But no matter how we slice it, we cause death to animals. If I didn't shoot that deer, then she may have been hit by a car or who knows what, but what I do know is that she would have died someday, and it would have likely been by getting hit by a car or by getting older and slower and being dragged down and eaten alive by coyotes. I don't begrudge the coyotes. I don't envy the deer but I do love and admire it.

Everything eats and is eaten. The most devout vegans still must eat. And unless they only eat things they forage for in their immediate area then they contribute to substantial animal death. If we eat any farmed products like wheat, soy, corn, rice, quinoa, beans, lettuce, carrots, etc, then we contribute a great deal. Have you ever plowed, combined, or hayed a field? I have. Sorrowfully I have destroyed nests of baby turkey and young deer and countless thousands of gophers and moles and a whole host of animals. It is a sad fact of the feeding of our masses that death happens so life can happen.

For the record I don't like trophy hunting because of its lack of emphasis on the animal for sustenance, but as long as the animal is used by the hunter or those in need, then I see nothing wrong with it, and I can not for the life of me think why you would feel justified in killing trophy hunters or anyone for that matter.

Well stated, my friend. I have tilled the soil also, and I know I have destroyed wild things, owls, rabbits, gophers, squirrels, unintentionally. I have harvested many a bale of hay, and many a slab of sod (having been a farmer). I have sprayed many a pesticide, before I became aware of the damage they cause. I am (sheesh, here I am defending myself) not a Vegan, or a vegetarian, but I eat less meat than ever. I have even smoked (a little) and drank booze and eaten junk food and polluted my bodily house, which is part of the planet we all live on. I do not do those things now. Even this, I have harbored many an ill thought, which is pollution of the mind and damage to the soul.
Seeing animals heads on walls and pictures of people posed by innocent animals they have shot makes me sick. How do you know those poor critters didn't drag themselves for a mile or two before they bled to death? And what is the sport, say, in shooting coyotes and bears from a helicopter? Or trapping a poor animal by the leg? UGH.
Killing for sustenance is one thing, but killing for a piece of ivory, or for "fun" is sick, sick, sick.
I know only too well about Death being the ultimate harvester. I work as a hospice nurse. We are all going to perish from Earth, one way or another. It bothers me that most people cannot have voluntary euthanasia. Death is not the enemy, it is even our friend, our escape from suffering, but needless slaughter and maiming is immoral.
Yes, I might think twice about shooting a trophy hunter and feeding his sorry remains to a croc, but I would have no compunctions whatever about killing poachers.

UkieOkie
04-12-2016, 06:21 AM
Well stated, my friend. I have tilled the soil also, and I know I have destroyed wild things, owls, rabbits, gophers, squirrels, unintentionally. I have harvested many a bale of hay, and many a slab of sod (having been a farmer). I have sprayed many a pesticide, before I became aware of the damage they cause. I am (sheesh, here I am defending myself) not a Vegan, or a vegetarian, but I eat less meat than ever. I have even smoked (a little) and drank booze and eaten junk food and polluted my bodily house, which is part of the planet we all live on. I do not do those things now. Even this, I have harbored many an ill thought, which is pollution of the mind and damage to the soul.
Seeing animals heads on walls and pictures of people posed by innocent animals they have shot makes me sick. How do you know those poor critters didn't drag themselves for a mile or two before they bled to death? And what is the sport, say, in shooting coyotes and bears from a helicopter? Or trapping a poor animal by the leg? UGH.
Killing for sustenance is one thing, but killing for a piece of ivory, or for "fun" is sick, sick, sick.
I know only too well about Death being the ultimate harvester. I work as a hospice nurse. We are all going to perish from Earth, one way or another. It bothers me that most people cannot have voluntary euthanasia. Death is not the enemy, it is even our friend, our escape from suffering, but needless slaughter and maiming is immoral.
Yes, I might think twice about shooting a trophy hunter and feeding his sorry remains to a croc, but I would have no compunctions whatever about killing poachers.

Thank you for your candid reply Nickie. I am glad this was posted because we only get one of these earths. I hope we can take better care of it. Happy Strumming.

Trevor

Nickie
04-13-2016, 06:59 AM
Thank you for your candid reply Nickie. I am glad this was posted because we only get one of these earths. I hope we can take better care of it. Happy Strumming.

Trevor

You are very welcome UkieOkie! Honesty is the best policy. I know I am not always right, but I am always candid, unless it will really hurt someone's feelings unnecessarily!
Have a glorious day!