PDA

View Full Version : Royal-Lac I love this stuff.



Michael Smith
04-16-2016, 02:39 PM
I have been experimenting with Royal-Lac. It's a shellac based product that solves many of the short comings of standard french polish. It is much more durable and impervious to things like alcohol and other chemicals. A beautiful high gloss finish can be achieved without buffing. Can also be buffed if desired. It's great not to have to put on spray equipment and to work with a product that is far less toxic. Robbie Obien has a youtube video on application. It isn't as easy to drop fill as nitro but I don't see why you couldn't do any drop filling with lacquer. 90296

sequoia
04-16-2016, 07:18 PM
Always interested in new finishes. What makes it different from standard shellac? How does it solve French polishing issues?

Timbuck
04-17-2016, 08:10 AM
Another great product I can't find in the UK...ill see if I can get the recipe and make some.

Red Cliff
04-17-2016, 11:13 AM
In the UK you could try Finneys in Chesterfield who make their own modified shellac polish called Finpol. They do a few versions, a 'Special Polish' and an extra hard polish. They work fine. They have a website.

lauburu
04-17-2016, 11:38 AM
ill see if I can get the recipe and make some
Can't wait for the video.
Miguel

Steve in Kent
04-18-2016, 06:14 AM
In the UK you could try Finneys in Chesterfield who make their own modified shellac polish called Finpol. They do a few versions, a 'Special Polish' and an extra hard polish. They work fine. They have a website.

That looks very interesting, if I new about that prior to using cellulose sealer and lacquer and would have given that a go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWViNoYKp88

PhilUSAFRet
04-18-2016, 06:30 AM
Thanks for the tip. Have to check it out, especially after watching this demo from Royal Lac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXRdJ6psTLg

Looks like Tru Oil gunstock finish now obsolete as instrument finish? Did a little research (similar question on Acoustic Guitar Forum) and seems like Royal Lac has a hardener in it that makes it more resistant to alcohol, sweat, etc. than comparable products.

Michael Smith
04-18-2016, 06:30 AM
I used the method Robbie OBrien demonstrates here


https://youtu.be/z6ofOgw-Bno

Kevs-the-name
04-18-2016, 09:14 AM
In the UK you could try Finneys in Chesterfield who make their own modified shellac polish called Finpol. They do a few versions, a 'Special Polish' and an extra hard polish. They work fine. They have a website.

I really like the look of this. Just watched the Youtube clip regarding its application. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWViNoYKp88) Thanks Steve-in-Kent!

I take it you recommend this as a good option then? Think ill give it a try.

Does it prevent the need to pore fill?
Thanks

Michael N.
04-18-2016, 11:24 AM
It's just a finish. I can't see how it would negate the need for pore filling - assuming you think that there is a need to pore fill in the first place.
Modified shellacs have been around for a long time. I've no idea what's in the Royal Lac but so called 'table top' shellacs usually have something like Melamine added. There does tend to be a bit of a fad about relatively 'new' products. It wasn't that long ago that everyone seemed to be after the U beaut hard shellac. Now I hardly ever hear it mentioned.
Shellac does resist alcohol fairly well. It just doesn't resist very strong alcohol. Beer, strong table Wine doesn't touch it. Even your average strength whisky only does superficial damage., the type of damage that can easily be repaired.

Michael Smith
04-18-2016, 11:37 AM
You still need to pore fill. Because it is a thinner finish than nitro your pore filling and prep need to be as good or better than lacquer.

Kevs-the-name
04-18-2016, 03:36 PM
In the UK you could try Finneys in Chesterfield who make their own modified shellac polish called Finpol. They do a few versions, a 'Special Polish' and an extra hard polish. They work fine. They have a website.

Which of these two do you recommend please?

sequoia
04-18-2016, 08:04 PM
Shellac does resist alcohol fairly well. It just doesn't resist very strong alcohol. Beer, strong table Wine doesn't touch it. Even your average strength whisky only does superficial damage., the type of damage that can easily be repaired.

I love shellac, but alcohol is like kryptonite to a shellac Superman. Which makes sense since shellac is in an alcohol carrier... Not sure what whiskey you drink Michael, but mine strips shellac like plutonium rips the skin off your face. Take home lesson: Drink beer when playing ukuleles with a shellac finish.... Didn't know they added melamine to shellac to stiffen it up. Makes sense. Basically plasticizing the polymer.

Laidback1
04-18-2016, 09:27 PM
Vijay, the owner of Royal Lac and Seal Lac is really a cool guy and provides great support on the product. If you have questions about the product and different methods of applying just call him. He's very generous with his time.
As far as pore fill, have just used the Seal Lac product and it works but took quite a few coats and have used Aqua Coat which worked great.

Michael N.
04-18-2016, 09:56 PM
I love shellac, but alcohol is like kryptonite to a shellac Superman. Which makes sense since shellac is in an alcohol carrier... Not sure what whiskey you drink Michael, but mine strips shellac like plutonium rips the skin off your face. Take home lesson: Drink beer when playing ukuleles with a shellac finish.... Didn't know they added melamine to shellac to stiffen it up. Makes sense. Basically plasticizing the polymer.

Try the test. I have. I pooled a strong beer (8%) on to a shellac surface. Left it sit there for 10 minutes, which is far longer than what would happen in a real life everyday situation. Nothing happened, the surface was as good as before the test. Then I tried a strong table wine. 10 minutes later, nothing. Only a whisky marred the surface but that was very superficial damage. Allow to dry/harden and less than 5 minutes with a polishing fad and it's back to it's original state.
There's a very good reason why people seek out the very strongest alcohol for dissolving shellac. Ever stripped a shellac finish with the very strongest alcohol? It takes a lot more work than most folk think.
As for water (the other thing that supposedly damages shellac), again nothing. I've pooled water on a shellac surface for days. Nothing. It has to be hot water for it to show signs of damage. Most of what you hear regarding shellac and it's suppose vulnerability to alcohol and water is from furniture (i.e table) makers. Unless you get in a bar room fight it's highly unlikely you'll be pouring a strong alcohol or hot water over your instrument.
Shellac is vulnerable to alkaline solutions though (a few varnishes are, including Tru Oil). It's OK with mild acids but even mild alkaline solutions will mar the surface. This is part of the theory as to why some peoples sweat damages shellac. Most folk have sweat that is slightly acidic as far as I'm aware. The slight acidity is part of the skins defence mechanism, known as the acid mantle layer. Quite why some people seem to strip shellac has to be down to some sort of alkalinity. Perhaps the nature of their sweat is slightly different to the norm. Washing powder is also alkaline, so rinsing clothes is a must. Not really a problem with modern washing machines. I happen to be one of the lucky one's. I don't seem to have much affect on shellac at all, I can play the instrument for years and very little wear. Yet I've had an instrument returned after just 3 months - down to bare wood.

Wildestcat
04-18-2016, 11:03 PM
Which of these two do you recommend please?

Ive just emailed Finneys for their opinion - watch this space ....

Steve in Kent
04-18-2016, 11:15 PM
I really like the look of this. Just watched the Youtube clip regarding its application. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWViNoYKp88) Thanks Steve-in-Kent!

I take it you recommend this as a good option then? Think ill give it a try.

Does it prevent the need to pore fill?
Thanks

I have just had a go at making a beaten up Lanikai 8 string look a bit better.

Ended up using a cellulose sealer and lacquer, so have not tried the Special Polish, but would have if I had heard of it earlier.

(My thread is http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?119821-Trying-to-bring-new-life-to-a-well-used-abused-ukulele )

Kevs-the-name
04-18-2016, 11:57 PM
Ive just emailed Finneys for their opinion - watch this space ....

Thats great.
...bated breath....

Wildestcat
04-19-2016, 02:40 AM
Here you go Kev - not the definitive answer you probably wanted to hear though! I think I might try the "Extra Hard".

Hi

Either will do. Each product has a different formula that some musical instrument makers prefer to the other but this is simply personal preference.I've enclosed some links for you. Rosewood as a timber can be problematic due to it's dense nature but as long as it is not too resinous shouldn't cause too many problems.

https://www.finneyswoodfinishes.co.uk/FINPOL_Extra_Hard_Polish

https://www.finneyswoodfinishes.co.uk/FINPOL_Special_Polish

Please get back in touch if not sure.

Mark Finney

Kevs-the-name
04-19-2016, 05:44 AM
Here you go Kev - not the definitive answer you probably wanted to hear though! I think I might try the "Extra Hard".

Hi

Either will do. Each product has a different formula that some musical instrument makers prefer to the other but this is simply personal preference.I've enclosed some links for you. Rosewood as a timber can be problematic due to it's dense nature but as long as it is not too resinous shouldn't cause too many problems.

https://www.finneyswoodfinishes.co.uk/FINPOL_Extra_Hard_Polish

https://www.finneyswoodfinishes.co.uk/FINPOL_Special_Polish

Please get back in touch if not sure.

Mark Finney

That's great (I think) as you say, not a definititive answer!!!
In fact not a answer at all !
Can't say we're any closer to knowing which to chose!
I'll get a coin ��

Wildestcat
04-19-2016, 06:22 AM
Hi Kev. I've gone one better and spoken to Mark on the phone - very helpful chap. On the strength of our discussion I have decided to go with the "special" rather than the extra hard. Apparently the extra hard isn't as hard as it used to be due to the unavailability of one of the original formulation ingredients, and the "special" is probably as tough as you need for instrument use - plus it doesn't need a special thinner (clear meths is OK).
For use over an epoxy grain fill, Mark still recommends a sealer/barrier coat to ensure the modified shellac flows on and sticks properly. If it doesn't, there is a risk of the second coat causing the first coat to wrinkle slightly. My normal shellac sealer mixed from Liberon blonde dewaxed shellac flakes will be fine for that.
Ref. polishing mops, a No 8 is recommended for general use (the size being used in the video). A No 6 is probably big enough for a uke, but a No 8 more suited for guitar. Easier to use a slightly bigger mop for a smaller job than vice versa.

Red Cliff
04-19-2016, 12:01 PM
Sorry to all those who were waiting for me to say something else about Finpol - been busy. But you guys seem to have sorted it out yourselves anyway. My answer would be I can't tell much difference between them except that the 'special' seems easier to prepare/apply.

I've never used it over epoxy grain fill so can't comment on that one. In the end it is cheap enough you can buy some and try it on scrap wood and if you don't like it you've only lost 10.

Kevs-the-name
04-19-2016, 12:33 PM
. In the end it is cheap enough you can buy some and try it on scrap wood and if you don't like it you've only lost 10.

I agree somewhat, however being cheep is not not strictly true! For the smallest amount it would cost:
Polish - 16.75
Thinners 6.10
Wax 11.26
Mop 17.98
Postage 8.40

It adds up if your just 'trying' something out. I'm certainly not discounting it, I just want to make sure it is what's best for me.

Michael N.
04-19-2016, 01:10 PM
Buy the large area brush set from royal langnickel. You get a 1", 2" and a 3" for very little. Sometimes one of the brushes isn't made that well but they are so cheap who cares. I've bought 4 sets over the last 5 or 6 years, not that any have worn out. I have a brush that cost me 30 and I use these cheap brushes all the time. Cheap but highly capable. and they are a natural hair. The expensive brush sits in a drawer.
Why is the wax so expensive? Why do you need it?
Here's just a small sample of brushes that I have. Obviously I have a bit of a problem. They include a cattle hair, synthetic golden taklon, an Omega china bristle, a few hake hair and a squirrel hair. My real expensive sable brush isn't included. The type I like are the Hake and the squirrel. China bristle is too stiff, the cattle hair is OK for oil varnish, not so much for spirit. I don't get on with the taklon at all. The cheap ones are the very white looking hair. The rest are much more expensive brushes but don't work any better IMO.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g193/mignal/94c8550b-c4ee-4919-bb33-d9d2940d3901_zps7qszeo2q.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/mignal/media/94c8550b-c4ee-4919-bb33-d9d2940d3901_zps7qszeo2q.jpg.html)

konut
04-27-2016, 08:11 AM
What would be a good grain filler to use underneath Seal-Lac and Royal-Lac?

Michael Smith
04-27-2016, 11:20 AM
What would be a good grain filler to use underneath Seal-Lac and Royal-Lac?

I use zpoxy.

Michael N.
04-27-2016, 12:12 PM
The best grain fillers IMO are those that dry clear. Shellac (takes forever), epoxy, superglue, although I've never used the last two as a filler. Aquacoat is pretty good too.

konut
04-27-2016, 01:44 PM
Thanks all!

sequoia
04-27-2016, 06:35 PM
I'm really liking the ColorTone clear grain filler from SMD. It has taken me a little while to get used to the stuff, but results are encouraging. The recommended 2 coats will not fill all your pores, but it gives you a good base. Seems compatible with everything I used so far.

90658

Michael Smith
04-27-2016, 10:23 PM
No dis to you but I gave up on that filler. I tried filling some walnut and was in 6 or seven coats before I got a good fill. About drove me crazy.

Sven
04-27-2016, 10:42 PM
I tried shellac over CA and had trouble getting it to stick. In the end I took it off and went with the CA straight.

sequoia
04-28-2016, 06:31 PM
No prob Michael. I hear your pain. It does not fill in the two coats as the instructions claim. I have resisted using more coats because I'm not sure what it would do to the sound or as an underlying finish. What I will say is that it gives a good base to begin filling. So no, it isn't a complete pore filler. Don't give up on it yet Michael, but also realize it is no Holy Grail to pore filling either.

A couple things I've learned: Slather the stuff on pretty heavy and then on both the first and second coats squeegee against the grain rather then with the grain. Sand back hard after first and second treatments. At this point STOP and let dry for a day or two. Do not continue to a total pore fill. Now begin your pore fill with your choice of lacquer with the stuff as a solid base. But no, this stuff will not or ever be a complete initial pore fill. I guess you could say it is a good solid start. What I like is it is clear and sticks good to my lacquer layers. Also it seems to be acoustically transparent. What's not to like?

Michael N.
04-28-2016, 11:33 PM
There is no 'good' pore filler. Just a lot of stuff that does the job but each seems to have it's drawbacks. I tend to like the fillers that dry clear, largely because it gives a more natural look to the wood. That's why I've recently tried Aqua coat. I really dislike the acrylic type smell it has though. I doubt that I'll use it again.
I'm going to mess about with using high clarity Hide glue as a filler. I've tried it before but this time I'm going to approach it a little different, use an additive. I'm also going to try and minimise the sanding, which is hardly my favourite occupation.