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Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 05:00 AM
Ya know, I cruise on this forum and in other places a lot. I post a few inanities from time to time and chuckle at some of the other posters too. I've also learned some stuff and maybe even taught a little. In addition, I'm a dedicated Internet "window shopper" and puzzler and gamer.

Those of you who post, post, post about the beauty and merits of your favorite ukuleles, your "what to buy next" contemplations, and your eternal string examinations and trials in addition to your jobs and, maybe family stuff, must not have a lot of time to spare.

I wonder if we all wouldn't be better served to put in some of this forum and Internet lurking time by actually playing on our numerous and costly ukuleles.

It was just a thought I had as I was doing my "beginning of the day" cruise around the net. I certainly don't play nearly as much as I could. What about you?
:old:

JJFN
04-25-2016, 05:08 AM
I was falling into that trap. I was on UU more than I was actually playing. I purchased the Jazz Ukulele by Abe Lagrimas and this has pushed me back to practicing more. So I guess I needed some motivation. Interesting subject.

jddennis
04-25-2016, 05:21 AM
I actually realized that I could play more by bringing my ukulele into the office and using my break time. I've also been taking it with me while my wife teaches at the YMCA. After I finish my workout, I practice. I feel like I'm making some big advancement. Not by playing more, but by playing with purpose.

Honestly, I don't think about *buying* new instruments too often. I've been playing since 2009, and I only have purchased three. The first was my intro uke. The second was an acoustic/electric tenor in 2012 to use when I play with others at church or jam sessions. The most recent was to commemorate my trip to Hawai'i earlier this year. As of right now, I don't have any plans to buy more, but it wouldn't be bad to start saving for a custom job.

Mivo
04-25-2016, 05:31 AM
I arrived at the same conclusion a while ago and cut down my forum time a little. Still reading and posting when I'm working, if only to clear my head, but I'm more mindful of the majority of my ukulele-related time and energy going into practicing -- instead of reading about practicing or what others have purchased or are selling.

I walked into the same trap with my other hobby (the game of Go) where I also ended up reading and writing more about it than actually doing it. It led to a lot of theoretical knowledge that I couldn't apply practically, which was a source of frustration, and it's really the same with the ukulele. Working on fixing that, though. I'd much rather play better and know less.

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 05:34 AM
jddennis, I don't buy Ukes anymore at all, but if I ever went to Hawaii again, I would certainly buy one as a keepsake. :old:

Booli
04-25-2016, 05:45 AM
The main reason I keep playing ukulele is because of this forum.

So many helpful links to books on technique, great uke players to listen to (both pro and fellow members), as well as educational info.

In ADDITION to that, the SEASONS contests every week FORCES you to learn new music and make a video and share it on YouTube, so if you dont PLAY, you cannot participate...

Not all of us do the forum instead of playing time, but for me the forum enhances playing time.:music:

I've also developed some truly great friendships with others, which transcend the forum, for which I am grateful. I'm sure many other folks here have done the same.

actadh
04-25-2016, 06:00 AM
I usually cruise the forum when I should be working ;) or on breaks such as now - a ten minute break between classes & I am eating a cup of applesauce and surfing before the next class.

wildfire070
04-25-2016, 06:14 AM
Same here. I check the forums a lot throughout the day because it's easier to access when I'm at work and when I'm at home, I'd like to have more time to play my ukes but with a 1yr old...I have to wait until nap time or bed time.

jollyboy
04-25-2016, 06:36 AM
I consider myself to be a ukulele hobbyist or enthusiast. And I like doing other uke-related stuff as well as actually playing the thing. As an analogy - someone who's really into motorcycles might derive pleasure from spending an afternoon taking the engine of their prize hog apart (and putting it back together again ;)) - almost as much as they might enjoy cruising around on it. So it's likely that I will continue tinkering around with my ukuleles, experimenting with new strings and so forth.

As far as posting here goes I enjoy the sense of community and greatly appreciate the ideas and information that the UU forums provide. I haven't had much luck finding uke-related group activities locally*, so I'm glad to have access to online resources. I think that if it was just me strumming away in my back room in 'splendid isolation' I might possibly lose interest.

*I don't even have a uke buddy to jam with - everyone say "aaawwwww" :p

spookelele
04-25-2016, 06:53 AM
Everything in moderation.

Otherwise.. the conclusion to your question, is we should shut down the forum, and replace it with a website with tab of the day.

Nickie
04-25-2016, 06:55 AM
*I don't even have a uke buddy to jam with - everyone say "aaawwwww"

Awwwwww, man!

I'm here instead of playing this time, because I've had a rather traumatic past few days. No details here, just work related BS. And moderate to severe arm pain. But it feels better today.
I'm here quite a bit at work (nights) because I am, as many of you know, EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN to play at work, or even have one on my person. Soul sucking job.....
Like Booli, my playing has a lot to do with UU. I'm inspired a lot here. I'm not a Seasonista, because I still don't feel like my playing is good enough, and I have no You Tube savvy whatever, except for listening to it.
Just missed a chance to play at a fundraiser Luau, because it is exactly the same time as our next club jam session. darn it.....

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 07:24 AM
Everything in moderation.

Otherwise.. the conclusion to your question, is we should shut down the forum, and replace it with a website with tab of the day.

Ouch!--bad day? Strum a bit. Maybe you'll feel better. :old:

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 07:28 AM
I consider myself to be a ukulele hobbyist or enthusiast. And I like doing other uke-related stuff as well as actually playing the thing. As an analogy - someone who's really into motorcycles might derive pleasure from spending an afternoon taking the engine of their prize hog apart (and putting it back together again ;)) - almost as much as they might enjoy cruising around on it. So it's likely that I will continue tinkering around with my ukuleles, experimenting with new strings and so forth.

As far as posting here goes I enjoy the sense of community and greatly appreciate the ideas and information that the UU forums provide. I haven't had much luck finding uke-related group activities locally*, so I'm glad to have access to online resources. I think that if it was just me strumming away in my back room in 'splendid isolation' I might possibly lose interest.

*I don't even have a uke buddy to jam with - everyone say "aaawwwww" :p

I think a lot of us are UUing so much because we're just bored, lonely or lookin' for something more interesting than our lives. :old:

janeray1940
04-25-2016, 07:41 AM
I think a lot of us are UUing so much because we're just bored, lonely or lookin' for something more interesting than our lives. :old:

I'll admit to falling into that "bored" category at times. I'm temporarily not working right now, which means I'm not currently a slave to a computer - and I'm finding that I spend a lot less time here and on a computer in general - there's just so many other things I like doing when I'm not chained to a desk all day! :)

jollyboy
04-25-2016, 07:57 AM
I think a lot of us are UUing so much because we're just bored, lonely or lookin' for something more interesting than our lives. :old:

I feel that's rather a negative way of framing it to be honest. I would say that it's perfectly normal and healthy for people to feel a desire to socialize with others with similar interests. And with something rather niche, like playing the ukulele, the internet provides a means for a bunch of enthusiasts, who might never meet in real life, to share their thoughts and experiences.

There seems to be a perception that engaging with other people online is a bit of a sad and lonely thing to do. Far better to be out in 'the real world'. Honestly, I believe that the way people interact with each other is evolving and changing and that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. It's just different. Thinking of it in a negative way seems to be all part and parcel of the things-ain't-what-they-used-to-be-and-everything's-going-to-hell-in-a-handcart mentality that some people choose to subscribe to.

spookelele
04-25-2016, 08:15 AM
Ouch!--bad day? Strum a bit. Maybe you'll feel better. :old:

Not so bad. What I mean, is moderation in using the forum, in shopping, research, etc.
If you make the acquisition of new gear the priority, then you'll probably get new gear.
If you make practice the priority you'll probably get better.

But staying in touch here, helps keep your interest up, which helps keep you playing.

Seeing something to get excited about is good, even if you don't end up getting that thing.

jddennis
04-25-2016, 08:22 AM
As for participating in the forum, I guess I'm a minimalist. I read a lot of posts during the workday (just to break up the doldrums), but often I don't have further input beyond what's there. I have no time to participate in the seasons. They seem very established, and I get confused when I try to figure out what the actual rules are. And if I could get the time to put an entry together, it'd only be one song at most. So it can be overwhelming and off-putting to see the content that others pump out in comparison to what I could do.

By the way, And the internet is most definitely not a lonely-person's activity. I was a communications major in college, and one of the classes I took looked at communications methods. Even though it takes longer for people to develop a rapport than face-to-face activity, the bonds people make over the internet are exactly the same. It's a great supplement for people, but for some it can open up all sorts of opportunity.

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 08:42 AM
I feel that's a rather a negative way of framing it to be honest. I would say that it's perfectly normal and healthy for people to feel a desire to socialize with others with similar interests. And with something rather niche, like playing the ukulele, the internet provides a means for a bunch of enthusiasts, who might never meet in real life, to share their thoughts and experiences.

There seems to be a perception that engaging with other people online is a bit of a sad and lonely thing to do. Far better to be out in 'the real world'. Honestly, I believe that the way people interact with each other is evolving and changing and that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. It's just different. Thinking of it in a negative way seems to be all part and parcel of the things-ain't-what-they-used-to-be-and-everything's-going-to-hell-in-a-handcart mentally that some people choose to subscribe to.

I don't see my comment was negative at all. Sometimes life is lonely, or boring or rather uninteresting.

When I was in the Air Force for 21 years and, later, in college for six years, there were lots of guys similar to me with whom I could interact, and it was fine. Now, most of those with whom I mingle are women and/or uninteresting male relatives. My neighbors are younger and busy with their families. My one good ol' friend's wife is very ill, so he's busy with her lots. I'll bet lots of old folks in the UU are lonely, and it's not negative. It just is.

And, being an old geezer, I can't do a lot of the interesting and exciting things that I usta do. Music, ale and Cognac is just about it, though I have a great wife too. And, missing those interesting, fun things is not negative either. It's all part of getting old. And everyone who is reading this post is gonna go through something similar. I know three or four different oldsters who have said "I wish I'd just die", and some of them finally did.

Negative? Nah! Just life. :old:

Kyle23
04-25-2016, 08:55 AM
I actually feel like I play too much. Yesterday I was just hanging out, watching the NBA playoffs all day and I was playing and watching at the same time. I probably played my Uke for about 8 hours yesterday, probably even more than that. That was the norm when I first started also. From the time I woke up I would play for 5+ hours a day. I did that for about the first 8 months. I have less time now but I still find myself playing multiple hours a day, sometimes all day.

Rllink
04-25-2016, 08:58 AM
I don't spend a lot of time on UU, but I visit it a lot. But like most it seems, I check Uke Talk, maybe Beginners, sometimes I check some of the others to see if something else has happened, but let's face it, most of the subforum just sit there. But I might spend five or ten minutes here, then I do something else. I seldom sit here and read everything regardless. I do not just come here to UU for the ukulele. In fact, I think that my interest in the ukulele itself is not as enthusiastic and most here. But I do find the people who post here interesting. I enjoy reading the responses and just seeing where people are coming from in their thinking. We have a lot of personalities here. I've never actually met a UU member in person, but I have made a few friends through the forum and I enjoy that as well. And when I get to know members, their posts take on a much more important aspect, which makes their posts even more interesting. So to me, it is more like visiting friends.

Croaky Keith
04-25-2016, 09:18 AM
Having read the comments so far, I can say that we, (that is all of us on UU), are here for a reason.

When I retired, I needed an inside hobby, I tried harmonicas, & was just about getting to grips with them, when I happened across comments about ukuleles.

That inspired me to have a go, having tried, & given up on guitar many years ago, the uke is small, lightweight, & has two less strings to bother with.

Last November, I started looking into getting a uke, which was fun in itself, so many different sizes than just the 'normal' (soprano), much different to when I looked at them in my earlier years back in the 60's, (remember them?).

I tend to collect things, & ukes were no different, but I got a handle on it before it got out of hand. :)

Basically, I have one of each type, & hope to stay at this level. Warning - there are a lot of different types.

UU has been very useful to a beginner like me, I have learned a lot by watching & listening to others, & the cameradery is just brilliant.

I was quickly persuaded into joining in with the Seasons, & I'm so glad that I did, they were so supportive of my early efforts, & let's face it, I was rubbish, but it motivated me to get better, & to join in the fun.

I don't have any local uke groups, so the Seasons are my local group.

As to spending a lot of time on the internet, I would be doing more of it if I didn't have my ukes. Comes the better weather, I shall be out & about, so will, maybe, not be here so much - who knows.

mds725
04-25-2016, 11:00 AM
I tend to visit UU at times when I couldn't otherwise be playing an ukulele, so I don't think participating in UU directly reduces my playing time.

PhilUSAFRet
04-25-2016, 11:24 AM
Have said many times that if I put in the time practicing that I do researching ukes and uke related material online, I'd be a gol'danged ukulele virtuoso.

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 11:51 AM
Have said many times that if I put in the time practicing that I do researching ukes and uke related material online, I'd be a gol'danged ukulele virtuoso.

You're zactly right. That's my whole point.

When I was a kid, my Mom usta nag me to practice. "If you don't practice, we're not gonna pay for more lessons!" I guess I oughta nag myself now--Ahhh, well . . .

:old:

Camsuke
04-25-2016, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=spookelele;1843201 tab of the day.[/QUOTE]

What a great idea Spooks! Here you go; http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?120146-Michelle

mds725
04-25-2016, 01:44 PM
Have said many times that if I put in the time practicing that I do researching ukes and uke related material online, I'd be a gol'danged ukulele virtuoso.


You're zactly right. That's my whole point. . . .

I'm kind of amused by the irony that for people for whom looking at ukulele stuff online takes time away from actually playing music, this thread is actually exacerbating the problem rather than solving it. :)

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 01:51 PM
I'm kind of amused by the irony that for people for whom looking at ukulele stuff online takes time away from actually playing music, this thread is actually exacerbating the problem rather than solving it. :)

Yeah, I thought of that too, but I did get in forty minutes on my Irish flute. I'm trying to get my embouchure back--too many strings. My new Irish banjo is next up--busy, busy, busy. :old:

DownUpDave
04-25-2016, 02:20 PM
I'm kind of amused by the irony that for people for whom looking at ukulele stuff online takes time away from actually playing music, this thread is actually exacerbating the problem rather than solving it. :)

Yea Dick........is this some secret ploy to prevent me from improving.

:music:It appears to be working :confused:

Pueo
04-25-2016, 02:40 PM
I tend to visit UU at times when I couldn't otherwise be playing an ukulele, so I don't think participating in UU directly reduces my playing time.

Yes, I am with Mark on this.
I fully admit I perhaps spend more time on this forum than I should, but I do enjoy the relationships that I have made on this forum, many of the folks I "met" here I have also actually met in the real world too, at the Roy Sakuma festival and at UWC.

Interestingly enough, in line with the OP, I heard that Aldrine was considering not having the forum at all because he was worried about making ukulele talkers instead of ukulele players. :D

Down Up Dick
04-25-2016, 04:15 PM
Yes, I am with Mark on this.
I fully admit I perhaps spend more time on this forum than I should, but I do enjoy the relationships that I have made on this forum, many of the folks I "met" here I have also actually met in the real world too, at the Roy Sakuma festival and at UWC.

Interestingly enough, in line with the OP, I heard that Aldrine was considering not having the forum at all because he was worried about making ukulele talkers instead of ukulele players. :D

Some of our younger members seem to have an aversion to any negativity or disagreement with what they like or believe. Different schools I guess--things change. Well, I wasn't brought up that way, and I like to wonder about things and try to improve what I think is a problem (a negativity?), and I really could play more and cruise less. I thought maybe someone else might be interested in my thoughts.

No one said that we shouldn't cruise the UU forum, and yet some seem to believe that I proposed it. Either that or they just want to disagree--to keep everything the same and safe and always positive (Yawn!).

If you want to read the forum posts instead of playing, well, heck it's still a free country--work out! :old:

Down Up Dick
04-26-2016, 06:00 AM
Yesterday, we went for our long walk, I played two music sessions and caught up on some of my reading. I'm trying to learn from my own post and change my boring existence. I hope I can successfully limit my lurkin' and cruisin'.

"I'll be back!"--Our X-Governator. See ya after dinner . . . :old:

Joyful Uke
04-26-2016, 06:13 AM
My fingers have been smashed and damaged over the years, making it hard to play as much as I'd like. Reading posts on UU keeps me engaged in ukulele related topics when I can't play, and keeps me thinking about what I can do when I can play.

I don't know anyone else who plays ukulele, so this is my source of information and ideas.

And I can pop in when I have a spare minute or 2, even from work, or while eating, unlike playing ukulele.

There is a place for both reading and playing, IMO.

Croaky Keith
04-26-2016, 06:22 AM
There is a place for both reading and playing, IMO.

Of course there is. :)

I do both, & enjoy both.

I did find that leaving a uke out on a stand helped me put more time into playing, because I could just pick it up a go picking, now I'm learning a bit of strumming too.

Each to their own, I say. :music:

Rllink
04-26-2016, 06:45 AM
To take this another step, I wonder how many people live and breath ukulele 24/7, and how many have other interests. Even interests beyond music. I have lots of things that I do, and for that reason I visit other forums as well. For me, the ukulele is just part of my life, and shares time with all those other interests. So I have to make sure that everything gets some attention each day, including my ukulele. Along those same lines, people talk about taking their ukuleles with them when they do other things, but I often times take things related to other interests along when I go on ukulele outings. Especially if there is some traveling involved.

drbekken
04-26-2016, 06:49 AM
I teach music in college. My office is filled to capacity with instruments (ukes, guitars, accordions, a piano, amps...) and books and papers... I read and play all day long, and during lessons I play too. It's a privilege that I value tremendously.

markT
04-26-2016, 08:33 AM
I am new here and new to the ukulele. I came here to learn.

However, I am not new to guitars (and mandolin) & amps and their various respective forums.
I do post a bit of show and tell & glad others do too. That's how I/we learn.
I do play one or more of my instruments daily.

Someone mentioned "everything in moderation". This is the key for me. :)

pbagley
04-26-2016, 09:23 AM
Did anyone check in on Nickie? If so I missed it. Hopefully things are better.
Maybe we should come up with a skype jam session. Perhaps even just a uke buddy skype thing for when someone needs a little diversion from traumatic days and the occasional life related BS that we all encounter from time to time.
A lot of us don't think our playing is "good enough". Mine is certainly not, especially compared to what I've seen. That said, I want to get something recorded and post it ... one of these days.
Like many I'm here as a little break from the work grind. When at home I have a ukulele (and a few other things) handy, and I find I don't spend as much time on UU.
Sorry if these are rather random and disjointed thoughts. Back to work....


*I don't even have a uke buddy to jam with - everyone say "aaawwwww"

Awwwwww, man!

I'm here instead of playing this time, because I've had a rather traumatic past few days. No details here, just work related BS. And moderate to severe arm pain. But it feels better today.
I'm here quite a bit at work (nights) because I am, as many of you know, EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN to play at work, or even have one on my person. Soul sucking job.....
Like Booli, my playing has a lot to do with UU. I'm inspired a lot here. I'm not a Seasonista, because I still don't feel like my playing is good enough, and I have no You Tube savvy whatever, except for listening to it.
Just missed a chance to play at a fundraiser Luau, because it is exactly the same time as our next club jam session. darn it.....

janeray1940
04-26-2016, 11:12 AM
To take this another step, I wonder how many people live and breath ukulele 24/7, and how many have other interests. Even interests beyond music.

And herein lies my problem - I have *way* too many interests! Music (not ukulele specifically even though that's what I happen to play) is and always has been at the top, but hiking and outdoor time, and photography are up there as well. I'm temporarily unemployed right now for the first time since 2003 and people have asked me if I'm ever bored. Hardly! I'm enjoying the time while I can and have plenty of free/inexpensive ways to pass the time.

I sometimes think I'm a bit of an anomaly among ukulele players - I most certainly do not live and breathe ukulele, specifically. I've never enjoyed uke festivals and find that the music I enjoy playing on uke is not often what others enjoy playing, and the music I enjoy listening to most often does not involve uke.

Now if only I could turn one of those many interests into a viable way of making a living... :)

Mivo
04-26-2016, 11:47 AM
Now if only I could turn one of those many interests into a viable way of making a living... :)

I managed to do that with one of mine (video games), and after a while the job aspects, as well as what once was a freely chosen activity (and field of interest) becoming mandatory, killed a good deal of the enjoyment. Almost twenty-five years later that is still what I do, while my hobbies shifted in the opposite direction (nearly all of them unrelated to computers).

janeray1940
04-26-2016, 12:21 PM
I managed to do that with one of mine (video games), and after a while the job aspects, as well as what once was a freely chosen activity (and field of interest) becoming mandatory, killed a good deal of the enjoyment.

I've had that happen too - seems the minute I start accepting payment for something I love to do, I stop loving it. So I know to proceed with caution in this area :)

Down Up Dick
04-26-2016, 02:23 PM
My fingers have been smashed and damaged over the years, making it hard to play as much as I'd like. Reading posts on UU keeps me engaged in ukulele related topics when I can't play, and keeps me thinking about what I can do when I can play.

I don't know anyone else who plays ukulele, so this is my source of information and ideas.

And I can pop in when I have a spare minute or 2, even from work, or while eating, unlike playing ukulele.

There is a place for both reading and playing, IMO.

Sure there is, Joyful, I hope you have a good time with the forum. Whatever floats your boat! :old:

Down Up Dick
04-26-2016, 02:40 PM
Well, this morning I played my regular video games and made a post or two, then we went for another good walk. Then I straightened up my garage, threw some stuff away and took some to a thrift shop. In the morning, I also played some Clawhammer--good session. After lunch, I caught up some of my reading and did an errand. Then I worked on my Clawhammer some more. I'm writing this before dinner because we wanna watch the election stuff later.

So, I had a large part of a whole day without all the boring cruising. Tomorrow, I've gotta get my car repaired and oiled, and, then, see if I can still play my tuba. I'd like to take a coupla runs at "St. Louis Blues" with my tenor banjolele too.

Sooo, I consider it a very successful and enjoyable day. I feel good about it. :old:

Down Up Dick
04-27-2016, 08:23 AM
Well, puzzles done and games played, and well, I might add. Then our walk, a clean sweep of the garage floor, and a good, long talk with my old neighbor and his wife. I also helped my wife load her car for a day of quilting. And now for some errands.

So, later, lurkers and cruisers, have a very nice day. "I'll be back!" after dinner. 'Bye! :old:

kohanmike
04-27-2016, 02:21 PM
I very much enjoy spending time on UU. I'm single, never been married, no kids, semi-retired (still do some graphic design, photography and property management), so I have time to peruse UU a couple of times a day, attend hour rehearsals 2 times a week, practice 2-3 times a day the hour set on bass uke for our next show, watch TV and strum a uke for a while a few times a week, and call my 94 year old mother daily.

Down Up Dick
04-27-2016, 04:14 PM
Well, another nice day without my iPad. Since I've stopped messing with it during the day, I really am feeling better emotionally. I'm more interested in other stuff, and I seem to have more energy, less lethargy.

You're correct, Bill1, a key idea in your post is that of doing, visiting, traveling. I miss all that too, but, for various reasons, we can't do it anymore. And, kohanmike, you seem like a busy, involved person too. Perusing the UU a coupla times a day is a good amusement and maybe informational too.

But I admit, many times I was way past that. So now I'm planning to play my games and do my puzzles, and then turn the darn thing off until evening. The days will be mine again. I filled all our bicycle tires up yesterday; maybe we'll get back into that too. We usta ride our tandem a lot and even toured. Sometimes I'm sorry that I ever bought a computer.

Anyway, I had a good concert flute session today. My embouchure is comin' along. Tonight, I'm maybe gonna Clawhammer a bit. It's comin' along too.

If only I could memorize anything worth a darn--Ahhh, well . . . :old:

Down Up Dick
04-28-2016, 06:00 PM
Yeah, we usta do that too but only for a week or so. We've toured all over the place mostly on our tandem. Then one very, very hot summer we quit to wait for cooler weather, but when it came so did the rain--almost every day. We got discouraged and never got started again. Also I came down with Bacterial Meningitis, so that was really that.

Anyway, I filled all our bike tires yesterday, and maybe we'll take another run at it. I'm thinking of returning to target Archery again too.

I was iPad free again from after breakfast until after dinner. I got a lot done today, worked a little on St. Louis Blues on a banjolele and ground out some scales on my tenor banjo.

And I really do feel a lot more vital and alive. I even started reading one of my Louis L'Amours again. My days are free again.
:old: