Introduction to Tuning

Nickie

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I hope this hasn't been posted before. It's a very interesting treatise on tuning. There's a lot of information in here I hadn't known before. Enjoy!

http://http://www.southcoastukes.com/019-1.htm

The link didn't work for me Nickie, not sure why. I suppose this is Southcoast's web site which I have read all of and found very interesting. After reading it I shifted my tenors to dGBE as an experiment and fell in love with the sound of G tuning. I also tried D tuning on my soprano but didn't care for it and it ruined a good D'Addario G string, probably needed a different string to tune that high.
 
Wow, I tried to read that whole thing. I finally gave up, tuned my ukulele with my electric tuner and played for a while. That is certainly well written and comprehensive. If tuning is a big part of one's ukulele experience, go no farther.
 
It should probably be mentioned that a lot of this is based on the findings of one individual luthier who measured his specific instruments (as far as I know, the exact details, such as dimensions, are not known). It's a great, quite entertaining read with interesting historical references, but it's based on relatively little data.
 
It should probably be mentioned that a lot of this is based on the findings of one individual luthier who measured his specific instruments (as far as I know, the exact details, such as dimensions, are not known). It's a great, quite entertaining read with interesting historical references, but it's based on relatively little data.

While I guess that's kind of true I feel it should be noted that the luthier in question (David C. Hurd, PhD) is a very highly regarded builder who went deep, deep, deep into the science of stringed instrument design and construction. Chuck of Moore Bettah wrote of him (on this very site): "What I've learned from David has changed my world."
 
I don't question David Hurd's data in anyway, and I don't doubt that it is perfectly accurate for the instruments he builds and measured. But other builders use different measurements for their ukuleles. Physics (acoustics) isn't an area I'm very knowledgeable in, so I'm genuinely open to corrections, but doesn't the size and depth of the body determine the resonance point of the body? The type of bracing? Thickness of top? There is no standard for the body sizes of ukuleles (baritone scales also run from 18" to 20"+).

So what I wonder about is whether David Hurd's data can be generalized (generally applied). As far as I know, he doesn't make that claim. He's reported the data for his own instruments, and no doubt accurately so.
 
I don't question David Hurd's data in anyway, and I don't doubt that it is perfectly accurate for the instruments he builds and measured. But other builders use different measurements for their ukuleles. Physics (acoustics) isn't an area I'm very knowledgeable in, so I'm genuinely open to corrections, but doesn't the size and depth of the body determine the resonance point of the body? The type of bracing? Thickness of top? There is no standard for the body sizes of ukuleles (baritone scales also run from 18" to 20"+).

So what I wonder about is whether David Hurd's data can be generalized (generally applied). As far as I know, he doesn't make that claim. He's reported the data for his own instruments, and no doubt accurately so.

I agree that there is a certain amount of variance between build specs of different instruments. How great that variance is, across the board, I couldn't possibly say for sure. I would, however, suggest that it is perhaps no so great as to render Hurd's data redundant.

This reminds me of the assertion that to truly validate the results of an experiment one needs to repeat it an infinite number of times. You might say that to compile truly accurate data about ukuleles one needs to test every ukulele ever made. I remember studying statistical analysis at school and recall that one is allowed to build in a reasonable margin of error, since one's results must always be based on a representative sample.

As far as Hurd's data being intended for general application, I believe that some of it serves as the basis for his book Left-Brain Lutherie, a reference guide for instrument builders.
 
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Hello Nickie,

Just saw this thread this evening. Glad you enjoyed the series – and typical of you to think of others by posting the link. Thanks for reposting the link Ubu and thanks to Jack & Choirguy for the kind words.

CG, you sat down and read that whole thing straight through? I have to admire anyone who can pull that off. This was issued via our newsletters; the various parts came out over the course of 8-9? months, so folks could take it in little by little. There’s still a final page left to send out. I delayed it because there were some new strings I think may deserve a reference, and they’re still not quite ready. I’d say most folks would want to read all this bit by bit, the way it came out. But yes, it took a lot of work, as you inferred.

That’s why you want to throw your arms up when you get to comments like Mivo’s. It would be much closer to the truth to say none of this is about David Hurd than to say “… a lot of this” was.

Obviously, in spite of the implication by Mivo that he has read this, he has not. No one who had would say something like that. I know some folks just like to add their commentary on whatever issue, and that’s fine – this is a place where people share their perspectives. But it’s also a place people use to gain information. It’s better to least start with “I haven’t read this all myself…” at which point you’ll probably catch yourself before you try to tell others about what’s in something you haven’t read.

At any rate, Jollyboy made good points on the subject of David’s measurements, which are used only as an example in a single link on one page of an 11 part series. Even on the linked page, it is specifically noted his data are examples of one luthiers work (though a very useful reference in that no one else has ever published this sort of data at all). The principles of how an instruments resonance affects sound still apply, however, and a method is given on that same linked page for determining the resonance of your own instrument – the most important thing after all. Mivo has written us numerous times with questions on these general kinds of topics, and we have done our best to answer him, even though he is not a customer. It seems he is somehow fixated on this narrow perspective, to the point he ignores over 90% of the varied topics this series discusses.

So unfortunately, this is one of those instances when good information is not found on a member post. If you do read through the series, it will be obvious.

Which bring me to Rllnk’s post. I totally understand that one. As a matter of fact, friend, if by chance you had kept reading (not that you should have) you would have found a comment supporting your approach in Part 10 – almost at the end. That Part, “Tuning for the Maestro” goes into all sorts of esoterica: Segovia, the Sitar, and an imaginary Leonardo Lozano, before showing how “fine tuning” was accomplished in a bygone era. But this quote towards the end of all that almost paraphrases what you said:

“So is this sort of Fine Tuning for you? Maybe - maybe not; as always, this is a very individual choice. … If you view tuning as a necessary evil in order to get to the practice of playing, then obviously this approach will be frustrating.”

The whole paragraph, I think, is a bit more entertaining – maybe one day you’ll go back and take in some more of it. Parts 3 & 4 are pretty technical and we often lose people there – especially if the technical aspects of tuning accuracy don’t mean much to you, and they don’t have to. But we put those in early on because a lot of folks think electronic tuners are the most accurate way to tune. In those technical chapters we just try to show that there are both good and bad aspects to relying on them. But again, that is a relatively minor aspect of the work as a whole, so just skip over them if they aren't of interest.

The series is not there to tell people how to set up an instrument, but to give them an often more complete perspective into the options the Ukulele offers, both in tuning itself, but also in tuning forms (Linear, Reentrant, etc.) and the different considerations to take into account for things like group play and solo – vocal and instrumental. Then you have a broader foundation to make choices that truly suit your individual requirements.

Thanks again, Nickie, for posting.
 
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Thanks to Dirk for putting this together and Nickie for the post. Being fairly new to an instrument I'm finding this very informative. Tuning is certainly something I do not fully understand, but it's getting clearer. Pretty darn in depth write up, going to take a few days.
 
I am working my way through it, great series of articles! :)
 
Think nothing of it Dirk. These articles are too wonderful not to share. Thank you for compiling them!
 
Im on the section regarding troubador tuning and I've got a question. My grasp of music theory is quite limited so maybe it's obvious, but here goes.
A lot of players who have learned from today’s methods take one look at all that and run away as fast as they can. The assumptions are often that the chords will have to be transposed back to C tuning for today’s player to be able to play them.
Am I missing something here? If something is written in D tuning, cant I just play it with my uke as normal? If it says D for example, I would play it as I normally would ie 2220. I thought transposing was done to make a song either easier to sing, or to simplify chords if way out of your league. I mean, isnt a D a D? I know that in D tuning a D is 0003, a C in C tuning, but isnt that irrelevant?

I dont get the different tunings part at all, why would everyone have to have the same tuning in a group, as long as everyone plays the same chord? So if it says D, everyone plays a D regardless of tuning. With troubador tuning this might be different, but as long as everyone is tuned to a specific key (like C, D or G) wouldnt it work?

This sort of means I'm approaching it backwards, why bother with the shapes, as long as everyone plays the same alphabethical chord ?
 
The great thing about learning to play by reading the chord diagrams is that you don't need to remember that a C in C tuning is 0003 and in D tuning is 3211. By learning to play just by the diagrams, you can play any tune in any tuning (so long as it's written up with ukulele chord diagrams and you don't mind playing in a different key to the standard-notated music). I play ukulele in both C and D tuning almost equally - it would "do my head in" to have to remember both sets of chords by the letters, so I write up my songs with the chord diagrams instead, along with a little note to remind me which tuning I prefer to play it in.

I often come across old sheet music for ukulele tuned BbEbGC (a semi-tone above D). For those songs I almost never bother to re-tune the ukulele - I just pick up my ukulele in D tuning and play the song a semi-tone lower than the sheet music says (which is fine as I'm not in a group).

If I choose to play my ukulele tuned ADF#B with my local group playing GCEA reading the chord names, then I either need to remember the different chords or I prepare my own song sheets marked up with the diagrams for D tuning. Sometimes I use a chord box stamp so I can quickly write in the chords I need on the song sheet.

Some of the old sheet music I come across actually has the ukulele chords a semi-tone or two out from the standard notation music. Whether this was just a mistake or intentional I'll never know.

I occasionally also come across old sheet music which instructs to tune the ukulele ADF#B whereas actually the tune is a whole lot easier if transposed to GCEA tuning (or transposed up a whole tone so it effectively comes back down a whole tone when moved from D to C tuning). An example might be a song that includes a lot of C (3211) chords - it's much easier to play 0003 instead. I think the reason for that is D tuning was so very favoured at that time (by May Singhi Breen in particular I believe).

Forgive me if I've repeated or contradicted anything in the article - I just read the section on "Tuning for the Troubadour" to understand the context of the question.
 
Thank you for your very detailed reply Jim, and taking the time to read the article just to help! Much appreciated!

I get the rationale for learning the shapes and playing by that, and I think I also get the reason why you could tune as you want and just use the shapes, but...

Consider this:
We have one soprano tuned D
We have one concert tuned C
We have one baritone tuned G

They are in a group and about to play something like C Am F G. Cant they do it together without transposing as long as everyone plays "their" C Am F G (their own shape)? Why the fuss about everyone needing to be in the same tuning?
 
They are in a group and about to play something like C Am F G. Cant they do it together without transposing as long as everyone plays "their" C Am F G (their own shape)?

Short answer - yes. As long as everyone plays their C shape when a C is required (or whatever) you're golden.


Why the fuss about everyone needing to be in the same tuning?

Big can of worms there I think :rolleyes: IIRC the Southcoast article does discuss ensemble playing at one point. It draws the distinction between Flamenco-style playing - with everyone playing the same thing at the same time on instruments all tuned the same - with orchestra-style where there are instruments with different voices. Or something like that - been a while since I read it :) Maybe just keep working your way through...
 
They are in a group and about to play something like C Am F G. Cant they do it together without transposing as long as everyone plays "their" C Am F G (their own shape)? Why the fuss about everyone needing to be in the same tuning?

You're right, indeed they can! Sounds simple, but if some of those players don't know all the relevant chords they'll need chord diagrams for their tunings. In both the local clubs I've played with, song sheets are only ever provided with diagrams for C tuning, so anyone playing anything else has to make up their own chord diagrams if they need them.
 
Hello All,

Great to see a discussion going on about this. Let’s me get a perspective on how good or bad I was in writing it. We’re trying like heck to get out new string sets now, but I’ll check back here to see if I can be of help.

Not that it looks like I’d need to. Absolutely great posts by Jim & Jolly, and spot on. CML, the only thing I’ll add is to elaborate a bit on Jolly’s post. Many of these Parts look at things from a narrow perspective. People play the Ukulele in so many ways that narrowing things down, Part by Part, seemed the only way to present everything without trying to cover every circumstance at one time. The Troubadour Part focuses on the solo player/singer. A lot of folks in that situation take sheet music and Method books too literally when it comes to tuning and make things way too hard on themselves in the process.

Your thinking is correct, but you’re thinking ahead to another situation. Keep on; you’ll see transposition discussed (but in this Part as it relates to a solo player). Few people play one way only, so the idea is after you get through the various “jobs” as we call them (“Troubadour” being one), you take what you need from those situations and then combine or adapt them to your unique set of circumstances.

But this Part, I think, is the most important in the Series. As far as folks who do only one of the various “Jobs”, this one is the largest, and even among those who do multiple “Jobs” this one is usually part of the batch.

Well de sun she goan down. The temperature is dropping (just a little). It’s time for a stroll down to Lake Pontchartrain for some fireworks, seafood and libations. Happy 4th Everyone (wherever you are)!
 
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