Cuatro Tuning - What do you think?

This could go under Links, but I thought I'd put it here for general discussion. I have this Ohana tenor that doesn't get played much so I figured I'd try something different with it - Eb Cuatro tuning. This is accomplished with Southcoast's Extra Light Linear set with the optional cuatro first string. (Aside: The restringing went fine although the 4th string is really sitting on top of its slot. I ought to file it a bit to make it sit down in the slot but I'm not sure yet if I'll keep it this way long term. It plays fine this way, just a tad higher action than it should be. Intonation is surprisingly not really an issue. But I digress.)

Here's my first quick-n-dirty attempt:
https://soundcloud.com/jim-hanks/ukulele-cuatro-tuning-test

To summarize the details, there are 3 sections:
1. reentrant Bb
2. cuatro Eb with same fingerings as #1
3. cuatro Eb with same chords (almost) as #1

I find it interesting that both the cuatro samples sound relatively *higher* than the reentrant sample. This is counter-intuitive to me since the overall pitches of the strings are lower even though the overall range is the same. It's also explainable in that the key of #1 is lower relative to #2 (Gm vs Cm) and the position of #1 is lower relative to #3 (e.g 2000 vs 4432 for the first chord).

I don't know what I'm going to do with this yet. It is definitely different. Picking common patterns gives a very different feel than either normal reentrant or linear. Chording also gives a different feel - "tighter" - but less so.

There are some other threads on cuatro tuning but none recently.

What do you think? Anybody else liking cuatro tuning? How do you use it differently than "high reentrant" or linear tuning?

It is interesting because when you say "cuatro", this is what comes into my head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_cuatro
I know a dozen people who play that type of cuatro. But I'm guessing that isn't what you are talking about.

Another option could be Lili'u tuning. Dirk told me Southcoast will be coming out with the new strings shortly and they will be double re-entrant and actually have a low a. (So it will be g' c' e' a) I am looking to get a taropatch and thought it would be great to tune it with a high c and a low a ( g'g' c'c" e'e' a'a). It's worth a look for a different sound.

www.southcoastukes.com/liliu.htm

Rllink said:

But I'm guessing that isn't what you are talking about.

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Nope. This is what I'm talking about : http://www.southcoastukes.com/007.htm

WCBarnes said:

Another option could be Lili'u tuning.
www.southcoastukes.com/liliu.htm

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Yeah, but those only use wound strings and I prefer all unwounds. It does look interesting though. Kind of an anti-cuatro.

I had Cuatro tuning on a baritone a number of years ago. It was really nice for strumming. Picking was very odd but interesting. It gave me ideas hadn't thought of.

i had a bari tuned cuatro as well. i thought it sounded too muddy and not very well defined. I just went back to linear...and its tuned CFAD (whole step down).

I've lost count on the number of times I have changed the tunings on ukes (and mandos, guitars and banjos) just to try something different. Doing so can bring a closeted instrument into the sunshine and keep it off the marketplace listings.

SteveZ said:

Doing so can bring a closeted instrument into the sunshine and keep it off the marketplace listings.

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Yeah. This uke has been in the marketplace a long time waiting for the right buyer. And who's gonna buy it now with these funky strings on it.

Very cool demo, Jim!

We've got demos on site that show how much different the two reentrant forms (Ukulele & Cuatro) sound from each other when tuned to the same key. Yours shows a whole new dimension with the B flat / E flat comparison.

As you noted, with low notes being the same, the sound is very similar, yet the pitch of the tuning is way different - half an octave! We've always said one of the big advantages to having instruments in different tunings is so that vocalists can play a particular chord pattern that plays well / sounds good at a pitch that suits their vocal range.

But usually that also means a very different sound from your Ukulele as well. To get an E flat in the Ukulele form, you'd likely go to a Soprano and have a very different tone - higher & brighter. Here you stay in Tenor size, keep the same sort of sound, but if it was an arrangement you just couldn't sing with a B flat tuning, now you are likely to be pitched at something more friendly without transposing. And as a lot of folks have found out, transposed arrangements on an Ukulele don't always sound as nice or play as easily.

Thanks for this!

southcoastukes said:

Very cool demo, Jim!...Yours shows a whole new dimension with the B flat / E flat comparison...if it was an arrangement you just couldn't sing with a B flat tuning, now you are likely to be pitched at something more friendly without transposing.

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Thanks Dirk. I didn't notice the matching range (low of Bb to high of G) between the two tunings until later. The "without transposing" point is a good one. I play all my ukes as if they are in C tuning so I "never" have to transpose (not quite true but youknowwhutimean). One thing I definitely want to do with this setup is record some duets from my jazz "play along" books with reentrant Bb and cuatro Eb. These charts have already been made for Bb/Eb tuning so, again, there's no transposing required while following the chart.

So, is there a g tuning cuatro set for baritone? I see C tuning on South Coast but not G.

It's not listed. I think you'd have to use the HL-WB set and the 4th string from the LHL-WB set as your cuatro 1st. But then you'd have three wound strings and just the one unwound 2nd string. Ought to work but might feel a little strange?

You can get G tuning on the soprano an octave higher than baritone using the same strings I am for Eb on tenor.

Thanks, Jim. Then it seems that if you want to have a Cuatro tuning on a baritone you should go for a GCEA tuning with the low A string. They're super light and Southcoast seems to suggest that they're best on a smaller uke, not a baritone, but the tension chart says they're okay for a baritone. Calling all Dirks!

Correct, you could do C tuning with LL-NW or D tuning with the XLL set.

Great comments, Jim – spot on!

But Kimo, as to the perception of these strings being very light, that changes in a way when you hang that deep Cuatro 1st on the bottom. They’re still “Extra Light” gauges compared to the other linear sets they’re based on, but the lightest of those strings has gone away when you change out the 1st.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these gauges are the basis for the two oldest tunings in the “Cuatro/Ukulele” family. Not only do these gauges give traditional Cuatro tuning on a long scale, but on a short scale these are the gauges used for Machete tuning, at least on a standard Soprano. But in both cases, that light 1st string gets heavier – just a bit in Machete tuning or dramatically heavier with the Cuatro. The effect this gives with the Cuatro is unique.

We updated the Cuatro page recently and there’s a new sound sample by a fellow there, Ivan Gajardo, that’s worth a listen. Great playing (a song by Baden Powel that should be right down your alley, Kimo), with a sound that I’d describe as crystalline highs (the two remaining lighter gauges) dancing over the bedrock of the low notes. It's the same effect Jim describes in his E flat sample - in Ivan's case it's done in the traditional Key of D.

Now what can hold you back a bit on getting that sound is if you have a Baritone that’s built on the heavy side – and unfortunately, that’s pretty much the norm. But another way to keep some of the traditional tone on a typical Baritone is to take the Light Gauges and put them at high tension in D tuning. Our ratings are for 20” scales, and this would likely be a bit uncomfortable there, but if you had a 19” Baritone that’s on the heavy side, this might be a real possibility.

As to G tuning – put the Extra Lights on a Soprano – you’ll be an octave above where you’re at on the Baritone, but the Cuatro 1st gives a full sound. There’s more detail on all this in the new Cuatro page (Jim linked it earlier in this thread).

The big change with the Cuatro strings is dropping all the wound sets – the ones you would use for deeper tunings. What we found you get into rapidly is a poor transition from wound 4th to plain 3rd, and when you go to a wound 3rd, then together with the wound 1st, there’s only one plain string left. It’s a sound we never liked.

The new Lili’u sets, on the other hand, are more or less half Cuatro / half Ukulele, and with wound 3rd and 1st strings, the transitions work beautifully. Info on them is linked from the Cuatro page as well. You’ll notice that we don’t offer Lili’u in light gauges or all plain sets; we think the Cuatro sets handle deep sound better with plain strings.

Thanks Dirk and Jim. If it came to deciding which baritone to use for Cuatro tuning and considering that I have a baritone voice and love Bossa Nova and jazz, should I use my Giannini or my Kala thin line baritone and what set of strings?

I'll check out Ivan Gajardo's playing.