Capo question

cml

cml

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I've got a question regarding the use of capos, and while I think I'm starting to get the music theory behind transposing etc this is a bit tricky for me.

Say I have a tune written C#. I want to transpose it to G because I'm having a hard time with its chords in C# (capo on first fret). Now, that would mean putting the capo all the way up on the 7th fret (right?), which doesnt give me a lot of space.

Am I doing something terribly wrong if I put the capo on say the 2nd or 3rd fret, but still play the chords as if it would be on the the 7th fret? I get that I'm not really playing in G, but it sounds pretty good? :music:
 
When you play a song in C# by placing a capo on the first fret, you are playing the song using the chord shapes you would use playing in C. For example, the C shape is 0001, and you play a C# chord using the same shape by moving everything up one fret (one half step) and using the capo as your nut. The capo at the first fret permits you to use regular chord shapes to make a chord that's a half-step up in pitch from the sound that shape would make if you weren't using the capo. If I were to transpose a song in C# to G to make chords, I'd remove the capo altogether and just use the "ordinary" chord shapes for an ukulele tuned GCEA. If the song required me to pick a melody of single notes, I'd just find those notes on an un-capoed fretboard and learn the new tab for it.
 
mds725 said:
When you play a song in C# by placing a capo on the first fret, you are playing the song using the chord shapes you would use playing in C. For example, the C shape is 0001, and you play a C# chord using the same shape by moving everything up one fret (one half step) and using the capo as your nut. The capo at the first fret permits you to use regular chord shapes to make a chord that's a half-step up in pitch from the sound that shape would make if you weren't using the capo. If I were to transpose a song in C# to G to make chords, I'd remove the capo altogether and just use the "ordinary" chord shapes for an ukulele tuned GCEA. If the song required me to pick a melody of single notes, I'd just find those notes on an un-capoed fretboard and learn the new tab for it.
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Why would you not use a capo at all if going from C# to G?

My reason is that C#m would be an Am if transposed to G...right? Much easier to handle. But doesnt that require the capo on the 7th fret to still sound like a C#m?
Or would you disregard that and just play it in G as it would sound in G, not trying to emulate the C# with a capo?

Thanks for your input :)!

PS, yes my uke is in C DS.
 
cml said:
Why would you not use a capo at all if going from C# to G?
Click to expand...

I think a capo on a ukulele really only makes sense if it's in the first two or three frets. So if you want to play a song written for a D tuned ukulele (like a lot of the 1920s stuff), you'd put it on the second fret and play the music just like it's written (this isn't transposing). If you want to play a song written for a G tuned instrument without adapting the chord shapes, but still play the same chords, get a baritone uke. ;) (Key and tuning aren't the same thing. You can play songs in the key of G on your C-tuned ukulele without a capo and without transposing, but some keys are difficult to play in C tuning.)

Here's an explanation on transposing: http://liveukulele.com/lessons/theory/transposing/
 
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I'm not sure I fully understand the question... Is the aim to play, for instance, a G instead of a C# chord, but to keep the key in C# using the capo? If so, why do you want to keep the key in C#? Does it work well with your voice? Can you sing the song in another key instead?

My rule of thumb with changing the tuning is that I can put the capo on the first three frets or detune the strings by one half step on my tenor (giving me 4 half steps of leeway), but otherwise, I just need to transpose the chords because otherwise it messes with the string tension too much.
 
cml said:
Why would you not use a capo at all if going from C# to G?

My reason is that C#m would be an Am if transposed to G...right? Much easier to handle. But doesnt that require the capo on the 7th fret to still sound like a C#m?
Or would you disregard that and just play it in G as it would sound in G, not trying to emulate the C# with a capo?

Thanks for your input :)!

PS, yes my uke is in C DS.
Click to expand...

When you said you wanted to transpose to G, I assumed, and I think reasonably, that you were saying you wanted to play the song in the key of G, not that you wanted to continue to play it in C# but use G shapes instead of C shapes (which is what you are doing when you play in C# by capoing at the first fret). I guess I don't understand why you would want to change the shapes you use if you can play the song in C# by using C shapes and capoing at the first fret.
 
mds725 said:
When you said you wanted to transpose to G, I assumed, and I think reasonably, that you were saying you wanted to play the song in the key of G, not that you wanted to continue to play it in C# but use G shapes instead of C shapes (which is what you are doing when you play in C# by capoing at the first fret). I guess I don't understand why you would want to change the shapes you use if you can play the song in C# by using C shapes and capoing at the first fret.
Click to expand...

Perhaps if you told us the song you are trying to play and the chords you are using, as well as what you are trying to achieve with it, we could give you some specific advice (including whether or not to bother with the capo).
 
ubulele said:
It really depends on what you're transposing. Transposing chords is simple: remap the chord names and play appropriate shapes for the new chord names. But if you have to transpose either melodies or entire fingerstyle arrangements, things are more complicated, and that's when the easiest solution is to either capo, switch to a different tuning, or do both, playing everything essentially the same way, relative to the capo or (if not using a capo) the nut. For some destination keys, this is not feasible.

When mainly playing chords in C tuning, generally the easiest keys to play in are F, C, G, D and A—these maximize the use of open strings in first-position chord shapes. Their relative minor keys are also fairly easy to play in: Dm, Am, Em, Bm and F#m. (Relative minor keys are three half-steps below major ones.) Because G is one of these "easy" keys, if you were only transposing chords, you wouldn't need to use a capo, just different shapes for the transposed chords corresponding to the original chords.

But since you mention C#m, I assume you're really playing in the key of C# minor instead of C# major—and that would explain why it's not the easiest key to play in with the capo at the first fret. C# minor is the relative minor of E major, and mostly uses the same chord shapes. In which case, you'd do much better capoing at the 2nd fret and playing as if in B minor (same key signature and chord set as D major). In other words, you'd transpose your chord names down a whole step, compensating for the 2-fret capo offset.

It also means that, in your transposition example, you'd transpose into G minor (same key signature and chord shapes as Bb major). For this key, you'd do best to capo at the first fret, using the chord shapes for F# minor/A major (relative to the capo), or to capo at the third fret, using the chord shapes for E minor/G major (relative to the capo). Alternatively, you could transpose into F#m instead, and dispense with the capo.
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Sorry if this is slightly off topic...but...

I find using a capo past the 5th fret makes my tenor ukess too plinky and kills the sustain due to the shortened scale.

If I need to play or sing in a new key, I have ukes in different tunings, C6, Bb6, A6 <--all tenors and baritones --> in G6 and F6, as well as linear CGDA and GDAE 5ths tuning which are MUCH easier to transpose than chords/keys on the modified fourths tunings we use on uke and guitar...

When using these other, lower tunings, I just play the chords in the ORIGINAL fingerings as written for what is typically C6 tuning, and since 99% of the time I am NOT playing with other's it does not matter what actual key I am in, for it is whatever is comfortable for me in a very narrow BARITONE_VOICE (and not baritone uke) vocal range

However on classical guitar I will sometimes also use a capo mostly to shorten the 25.5" scale length and make it an easier transition from playing the uke all the time. For example instead of the guitar tuned open to EADGBE, with a capo on the 3rd fret, it is now GCF#BDG, which puts it in a range lower than a baritone uke, and OMG the BLASPHEMY, I play the same chord shapes as if the capo was the NUT, and for most practice I dont pay attention to the chord NAMES, but I know it is a C-chord-capo-3 ( which is in fact an E chord now for the pitches played) and knowing the chord names only really matters if A) I am going to transcribed the music I've written, or B) write other musical parts on other instruments and need to know what notes or chords are played when using the capo - then I will do the 'math' to learn the names of the actual pitches played...

I spend a lot of time working out movable chord shapes and that has show me that everything, including pitch reference is relative, and even more so with fifths-tunings or even perfect-fourths tunings...
 
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Thank you everyone for your input, I realized I was probably not making a lot of sense in the OP and wasnt clear enough of what I wanted to achieve.

Basically I wanted to transpose the song to make the chords easier, but use a capo to make it sound like it would in its original key, or something close to it at the least.

I didnt get it, but I ended up winging it. What works works, no :music:?
 
I'm thinking that transposing the song in order to make the chords easier to play is not a good reason to transpose a song.

Either you want to change the key so you can sing it more easily or you want to be able to play it with other musicians or the original recording or something like that.

If you find the chords difficult, then perhaps you just need to deal with it. Learn them, take more time to learn the song, or put the song aside until you are up to speed.

This is what i'd do.
 
AndieZ said:
I'm thinking that transposing the song in order to make the chords easier to play is not a good reason to transpose a song.

Either you want to change the key so you can sing it more easily or you want to be able to play it with other musicians or the original recording or something like that.

If you find the chords difficult, then perhaps you just need to deal with it. Learn them, take more time to learn the song, or put the song aside until you are up to speed.

This is what i'd do.
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Of course, and I'll keep working on it, but I had a deadline to meet.
 
AndieZ said:
I'm thinking that transposing the song in order to make the chords easier to play is not a good reason to transpose a song.

Either you want to change the key so you can sing it more easily or you want to be able to play it with other musicians or the original recording or something like that.

If you find the chords difficult, then perhaps you just need to deal with it. Learn them, take more time to learn the song, or put the song aside until you are up to speed.

This is what i'd do.
Click to expand...

I think it's a very good reason to transpose a song. I do it all the time. Sometimes it even sounds better transposed.
 
robinboyd said:
I think it's a very good reason to transpose a song. I do it all the time. Sometimes it even sounds better transposed.
Click to expand...
I agree. I change most everything to the key of C or G. You are probably going to play in a key that you are comfortable singing in, and because you play a lot of songs in those keys, you are going to be more familiar with the chords. If a song comes in some obscure key, I'm going to have to transpose it into something that I can sing anyway.

But early on, when I first started and didn't even know what keys were comfortable to me, I would go to somewhere like ultimateguitar.com and pull up a song with "ukulele chords" and it would come up in some of the weirdest keys. I don't know why, but it does sometimes. So I would print it out and try to learn how to play it in whatever key is was. I didn't realize that most of those sites you can change the key before you even print it out. But before I figured that out, I was playing some of the damnedest chords imaginable.

I never use my capo. A capo throws me off. I would just rather transpose it and have the whole fretboard to play around with.
 
AndieZ said:
I'm thinking that transposing the song in order to make the chords easier to play is not a good reason to transpose a song.

Either you want to change the key so you can sing it more easily or you want to be able to play it with other musicians or the original recording or something like that.

If you find the chords difficult, then perhaps you just need to deal with it. Learn them, take more time to learn the song, or put the song aside until you are up to speed.

This is what i'd do.
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on whether one is playing for enjoyment or working to play a concert at Symphony Hall. I think one should make music easy and comfortable and enjoyable. If changing the key of a song to accomplish those goals is necessary, so be it.

I play in the keys of C, D, F, G, A and occasionally E. I don't have a lot of music in A or E; most of the music I like is in C, D or G. I play in F too, but Bb is a pain and a finger twister--thud, thud, thud . . . I play in those keys because they're easy for me and in my voice-whistle range.

Using a capo to make a song easier to play and sing will increase one's enjoyment, and, to me, that's what music's all about.

I'm never gonna play at Carnegie Hall, or even open mike night at Joe's Garage. :eek:ld:
 
As a classically trained tenor, a lot of the songs in A minor (relative minor of C Major) are too low for me to comfortably sing (really anything below a C3). So I transpose to be able to sing some of these songs. I'd say that 1/5 of the songs in the Daily Ukulele are really out of my range.

But a lot of literature is written for keys of other instruments, particularly guitar. And generally, guitarists will write for keys that work best on guitar, particularly those that work with as many open string chords as possible. Those open chords don't necessarily work well with other instruments--they certainly don't sound as rich (fewer open strings) and in the case of ukulele, dealing with barre chords.

Yes...as you advance on ukulele you move to new levels of complexity...but from what I see, the many players don't have the time to devote to the study of the ukulele--so for them, sticking with the open-ukulele friendly songs in the books AND the ukulele-friendly transpositions on the ukulele tab sites is perfect.

Just as I do with motorcycles...and I will take everyone with open arms!
 
Rllink said:
I agree. I change most everything to the key of C or G. You are probably going to play in a key that you are comfortable singing in, and because you play a lot of songs in those keys, you are going to be more familiar with the chords. If a song comes in some obscure key, I'm going to have to transpose it into something that I can sing anyway.

But early on, when I first started and didn't even know what keys were comfortable to me, I would go to somewhere like ultimateguitar.com and pull up a song with "ukulele chords" and it would come up in some of the weirdest keys. I don't know why, but it does sometimes. So I would print it out and try to learn how to play it in whatever key is was. I didn't realize that most of those sites you can change the key before you even print it out. But before I figured that out, I was playing some of the damnedest chords imaginable.

I never use my capo. A capo throws me off. I would just rather transpose it and have the whole fretboard to play around with.
Click to expand...

Rlink, you are actually agreeing with me. .:). Ie the best reason to change the key is so that you sing it. But it is also very handy to know what you said about ultimate guitar. That is good to know.

The thing here is that people are very comfortable talking about what key a song is in. As yet i haven't mastered this matter. I don't know what key i'm in. Though robin helpfully gave me a diagram to figure it out on another page so we don't need to go over that again. :)
 
Choir boy, would you say that its a good idea in fact an excellent idea to figure out what keys suit you best and get into the habit of transposing everything into one of those keys.

I must figure out this soon. And just to grumble, since the key is so important, wouldn't it be nice if most sites actually wrote at the top of the page what key its in. I guess they take it for granted that most people are already so accomplished that they can look at the chords and know immeidately what key its in, just like piano players can know immediately what key it is form looking at the business of sharps and flats at the beginning of a score. On that point, i'm still not good enough at reading music to be instantly knowledgable about that either. I have been told once but made the mistake of not learning it by wrote straight away since I didn't realise how vital it would be at the time. I'll have to start from scratch.

just btw, i'm actually a choir girl. My uke stuff is a bit on hold at the moment because we have begun rehearsals for the barber of seville with our state opera company and i'm in the chorus. Its on very soon. I'm so excited. We locals who are in it are all so excited because its a first time for most of us. I keep chucking out my other opportunities to be in our local operas for various silly reasons. Our choir leader is an expert opera singer - a proper diva and what's more she's a mezzo like me. We are very lucky here.
 
When I did a lot of guitar playing, I didn't like the change in sound I heard using a capo. Also, I kept forgetting to bring a capo, possibly due to not liking the sound. Over the years, I taught myself to transpose by sight. I don't think I could do that now, but it is possible to learn to do.
 
AndieZ said:
And just to grumble, since the key is so important, wouldn't it be nice if most sites actually wrote at the top of the page what key its in. I guess they take it for granted that most people are already so accomplished that they can look at the chords and know immeidately what key its in, just like piano players can know immediately what key it is form looking at the business of sharps and flats at the beginning of a score. On that point, i'm still not good enough at reading music to be instantly knowledgable about that either.
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Many songs start and/or end on the chord of whatever key the song is in. Not 100% effective but it's a good place to start.
 
For what it's worth, I have a section on Capo for the Uke in my UkeSyllabus for beginners. I wrote this to try to understand how to use the capo, after finding nothing helpful on the internet.

Notes for the Beginning Ukulele Player
www.lakesidepress.com/UkeSyllabus.pdf
APPENDIX G, page 95
 
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