Sustain or not sustain? this is the question!

this hamletic doubt is something I'd like to discuss with the forum.

reading many topics about strings, usually comes out the discussion about the sustain: some like the long sustain, some the short sustain.

I think that, as for any stringed instrument out there, the sustain is part of the sound and vibe.

for example, the bass guitar once was played with flatwound strings dampened at the bridge, to have the shortest sustain possible and just the attack of the note.
today it's a chased sound for those wanting the vintage vibe from the 50's and 60's, and part of the 70's.

listening to old ukulele recordings, I always noticed that the short sustain was typical, part of it, when nowdays most people research long sustain from every note.

how do you deal with sustain? what do you prefer?

personally I like the short sustain, and in fact I find my favourite match with strings like the black nylons from D'Addario.
sometimes I retry fluorocarbons or nylguts, but always come back to blacks.
I like how the uke sounds with "short sustained" strings, with that thumpy attack and less harmonics suspendend in the air.

I like it even with melodic fingerpicking.

Excellent topic and it will not doubt be good food for thought and lead to excellent discussions. I like the fact that you identified nylon strings as having less sustain. Many people ask what strings give the most sustain and I have always thought florocarbons had the most and you seem to agree.

I like sustain......lots of sustain. I like low G with a wound 4th and 3rd string. I believe it boils down to the type of music you play. I have no shame in saying the uke is like a small guitar to me. I play classic rock, folk, pop and country. So I am basically chasing the acoustic guitar tone. When I want even more sustain I grab one of my baritones.

I do enjoy fingerstyle, chord melody and classical pieces where less sustain is more desirable as well.

Very thought provoking question. I would fall into the long sustain camp - perhaps even sustain and resonance are what I am unconsciously looking for in sound. Perhaps it is because I started with guitar back in my teens. When I first played my Mainland tenor it seemed to have such a difference from the sopranos I had been exclusively playing for two years as to seem different instruments - and it was the sustain and resonance that I was picking up on.

When I first read Pier's post, I immediately thought of my 1950's Harmony soprano. It is one of my least played ukuleles. It does not have a bad sound to it, but what it does have is no sustain - even with Martin strings on it. Perhaps what sounded off to me was not the tone, but the sustain and I had never picked up on that concept. I keep it for the vintage music I like to play to make the instrument authentic, but had paid little attention to the fact the the sound is authentic, too, at least for what was then a box store instrument that was the Dolphin/Shark of the era.

DownUpDave said:

Excellent topic and it will not doubt be good food for thought and lead to excellent discussions. I like the fact that you identified nylon strings as having less sustain. Many people ask what strings give the most sustain and I have always thought florocarbons had the most and you seem to agree.

I like sustain......lots of sustain. I like low G with a wound 4th and 3rd string. I believe it boils down to the type of music you play. I have no shame in saying the uke is like a small guitar to me. I play classic rock, folk, pop and country. So I am basically chasing the acoustic guitar tone. When I want even more sustain I grab one of my baritones.

I do enjoy fingerstyle, chord melody and classical pieces where less sustain is more desirable as well.

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Agree! Feeling that slight vibration is definitely okay, especially with some rock tunes. The wound strings do add to it. Why I like the Aquila strings may be because they are usually hard enough to promote better vibes.

I also like lots of sustain. I am currently playing a tenor with Martin M600 (soprano/concert) fluoros to give me less tension and more sustain. Plus a wound low-G.

DownUpDave said:

I believe it boils down to the type of music you play. I have no shame in saying the uke is like a small guitar to me. I play classic rock, folk, pop and country. So I am basically chasing the acoustic guitar tone. When I want even more sustain I grab one of my baritones.

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I'm also in the 'small guitar' camp - sacrilege to purists perhaps but that's my thing. I associate low sustain with that classic re-entrant fast-strumming old school uke sound (nothing wrong with it at all - I even think it's probably better suited to certain types of music). I like to mainly play rock, folk, country and also blues. With blues I've just started experimenting with various left-hand techniques - slides, hammer ons and pull offs - and I feel that these all work better (for me) when there's plenty of sustain. Also, I typically like to play arpeggios and like the way that the individually sounded strings 'bleed' into each other when there's a decent amount of back end.

It depends on the song. A slow fingerpicked one likely requires more sustain. A fast one, esp strummed, doesn't. Sometimes my uke with the most sustain doesn't work for a fast fingerpicked song, as the notes can get mixed together too much.

Warm mellow tone with lots of sustain - low G or baritone - flourocarbon strings.

I think the short sharp sound of sopranos fit well with strum singing - but I like to pick melody lines.

wayfarer75 said:

It depends on the song. A slow fingerpicked one likely requires more sustain. A fast one, esp strummed, doesn't.

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Let's translate sustain into actual ukes. The short sustain camp is old school Martin, Kamaka etc., also Timms, being a Martin copy, ukes with hardly any bracing inside, which transform string energy immediately into strong sound peaks. I like to strum, and I never thought a second about sustain until I got the John King green book, with delicious old fingerstyle tunes. Then I noticed my Timms had a slightly annoying, non sustaining hot spot on its first string. Of the long sustain camp, my only experience is with a Talsma that I own, a different type of built, which puts the others in the shade, sustainwise. Also, I know that Mya Moe is built for longer sustain. They put in more bracing, which I imagine helps to spread string energy over time. These sustainers are less explosive, more even sounding. I think one could own both types of uke. But my heart will be with the explosive, short sustaining, dynamic, lively, fat, old school sound. For playing fingerstyle I personally prefer guitar.

I like mellow tone with sustain. I got lucky I think. A few years ago, I was doing some work with Bruce Wei, and his ukes. I know there were an array of opinions about his work. I have had good luck with him myself. He made a custom for me back then, and I have NO idea how this thing has the sustain it has, but has the best sustain than anything I have ever played. The uke just wants to sing. It is a solid mahogany, strung with simple aquilas. This thing when hanging on the wall in the room, and someone simply talking within 10 or so feet of it, the uke will literally hum just hanging there. I love it, and it has been my favorite player for several years now.

I whole heartedly agree with everything DUD says here.

DownUpDave said:

Excellent topic and it will not doubt be good food for thought and lead to excellent discussions. I like the fact that you identified nylon strings as having less sustain. Many people ask what strings give the most sustain and I have always thought florocarbons had the most and you seem to agree.

I like sustain......lots of sustain. I like low G with a wound 4th and 3rd string. I believe it boils down to the type of music you play. I have no shame in saying the uke is like a small guitar to me. I play classic rock, folk, pop and country. So I am basically chasing the acoustic guitar tone. When I want even more sustain I grab one of my baritones.

I do enjoy fingerstyle, chord melody and classical pieces where less sustain is more desirable as well.

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Easy to kill it, if you don't want it, but you aren't going to get it if it ain't there.

Rllink said:

Easy to kill it, if you don't want it, but you aren't going to get it if it ain't there.

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You got that right!

There are sopranos with sustain - I would put my maple full body Brueko with Worth Browns in that category.

This thread is a little confusing for me.
A competent player can control sustain.

Could this be an issue solely with "tab" players. Perhaps people who learn tab and do not understand how to read music notation don't realize the importance of rests in a song or even understand note duration.
Sustain should be something that happens to a note that goes on for more than 1 beat in a measure and not really anywhere else unless you are playing with the voicing of a piece.

Learning how and when to dampen your strings should be a part of every player's abilities, IMHO. That might be why we should all have a basic understanding of music notation so we can see the notes and rests and then use the tab to help with fingering. My two cents.

Also, from the OP's original comments it appears like decay would be a better description of what aspect/parameter of sound he was talking about.
The old recordings seem to have a strong attack and quick decay which leads to a drop in sustain. Here are the ADSR parameters.

Attack time is the time taken for initial run-up of level from nil to peak, beginning when the key is first pressed.
Decay time is the time taken for the subsequent run down from the attack level to the designated sustain level.
Sustain level is the level during the main sequence of the sound's duration, until the key is released.
Release time is the time taken for the level to decay from the sustain level to zero after the key is released.

Like others here, I came from playing guitar, for almost 50 years, so I'm definitely a long sustain and strong projection type, but also high-G for the more ukulele sound, not like guitar. I'm almost strictly a strummer. I just bought a Godin Multiuke from the Marketplace that has a wound low-G and after playing it for a couple of days, I'm going to change it high-G.

I like both, depending on my mood and what I am playing (or trying to achieve, sound-wise). This is probably the answer to why I was so torn between sizes, too. It's probably also why the concert size didn't fully satisfy me, but seemed to have more potential to be the "one uke" size that I had hoped to find. Once I realized that I had impossible expectations (one uke that does it all), I accepted I can't get it all from the same size, so I turned toward the bigger sizes for lots of sustain (potential of it) and to sopranos for the fast attack, short sustain, and chirpiness.

johnson430 said:

This thread is a little confusing for me.
A competent player can control sustain.

Could this be an issue solely with "tab" players. Perhaps people who learn tab and do not understand how to read music notation don't realize the importance of rests in a song or even understand note duration.
Sustain should be something that happens to a note that goes on for more than 1 beat in a measure and not really anywhere else unless you are playing with the voicing of a piece.

Learning how and when to dampen your strings should be a part of every player's abilities, IMHO. That might be why we should all have a basic understanding of music notation so we can see the notes and rests and then use the tab to help with fingering. My two cents.

Also, from the OP's original comments it appears like decay would be a better description of what aspect/parameter of sound he was talking about.
The old recordings seem to have a strong attack and quick decay which leads to a drop in sustain. Here are the ADSR parameters.

Attack time is the time taken for initial run-up of level from nil to peak, beginning when the key is first pressed.
Decay time is the time taken for the subsequent run down from the attack level to the designated sustain level.
Sustain level is the level during the main sequence of the sound's duration, until the key is released.
Release time is the time taken for the level to decay from the sustain level to zero after the key is released.

Click to expand...

I can read musical notation (played piano, clarinet and saxophone before uke), and I can dampen the strings to control the note. I just find it easier to pick up a soprano for a fast piece so I don't have to bother so much. Dampening notes can get tricky, depending on the piece. Call me lazy, call me an incompetent player, I don't care. I don't play to please you, but to please myself. If it's a fast song, it really is simpler to just use my Kamaka soprano, than to use my Kelii concert, which has sustain for days. It also has to do with the scale of a soprano being easier for me in general.

Also, the percussive sound that a naturally non-sustaining uke has is different. Muting the strings on my bigger ukes sounds different than the note simply ending on its own. I don't really have a preference for ukes with or without sustain. I have both. It's like low G, it's good for some things I play, but not everything.

wayfarer75 said:

I can read musical notation (played piano, clarinet and saxophone before uke), and I can dampen the strings to control the note. I just find it easier to pick up a soprano for a fast piece so I don't have to bother so much. Dampening notes can get tricky, depending on the piece. Call me lazy, call me an incompetent player, I don't care. I don't play to please you, but to please myself. If it's a fast song, it really is simpler to just use my Kamaka soprano, than to use my Kelii concert, which has sustain for days. It also has to do with the scale of a soprano being easier for me in general.

Also, the percussive sound that a naturally non-sustaining uke has is different. Muting the strings on my bigger ukes sounds different than the note simply ending on its own. I don't really have a preference for ukes with or without sustain. I have both. It's like low G, it's good for some things I play, but not everything.

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Laura,
Firstly, I never said anything about size of a uke and sustain. Sustain and uke size are not equatable. On that note, I have a different experience than you. My KoAloha pineapple soprano had more sustain than my Pono MGT tenor. Go figure.
And you don't have to dampen to cut sustain on a note. There are other methods for curtailing sustain, one is to simple lift you finger off the string. Easy for anyone, right?
Also, I can get a great percussive sound from all my ukes; for me it is all about about technique.
And like you said, play for yourself and no one else. Learn what you want and play what you want.
Uke on!

I play mostly campanella fingerstyle and that needs sustain to be at it's best.
Technique can never create sustain. Damping can be used to reduce sustain, but nothing can extend it. Some ukes have a very short note, like a banjo, and some have a longer note, which gives you something to work with. So, I always prefer a uke with longer sustain since that gives me more possibilities.

Pier said:

how do you deal with sustain? what do you profer?

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It is indeed a personal thing. It has to do with your personal concept of the ukulele. There are almost as many techniques and strums etc. as there are ukulele players. The ukulele is an anarchistic instrument. No rules. So any answer to Pier's question could only be personal.

I read his question as 'what is your concept of ukulele?' And by which type of ukulele is this concept served best, a sustaining or a non-sustaining uke?

To me, the uke's strongest point is its ability to form well sounding chord voicings (which could go well beyond the basic harmonies). Thanks to its high register and re-entrant tuning, chords tend to turn into 'balls of sound' rather than into combinations of well defined individual notes like you hear in chords played on a piano or a guitar. Used as a chord instrument, the uke makes great play of its absence of a bass register, turning a possible weakness into a strong point.

Fingerstyle playing, by which I mean playing a combination of melody and harmony, is more likely to expose the uke's limited range.

As strumming is drumming, uke players are sitting on a drummer's chair so to say. 'Non-sustaining' ukes (old school ukes with hardly any braces inside, like the Martin and the Kamaka) will, by definition, react quickest, appearing more dynamic than the modern type of sustaining 'do it all' uke.

You've noticed that I'm generalising, putting ukes into categories of 'old school, non braced, non sustaining' versus 'modern, braced, sustaining', as I feel that there's a correlation. We could always discuss these different types, trying to find general differences in dynamics, sustain and tone quality. It's just my guess that sustaining ukes tend to have a sharper sound. A short sustaining uke tends to bring its own type of sound. Just that could be enough for a preference! I like the fat sound of a good old school soprano. But I'm on the list for a Mya-Moe, and I'll expect quite a different type of sound from that. Just by seeing how much playing time the MM will get, I'll get to know myself a little better.

Pier's question, as he said, definitely has a 'Hamletic' side to it.