Music & The Brain - Down The Rabbit Hole

I occasionally find myself thinking quite abstract thoughts about the nature of music. Music is so very important to so many people and yet, as I understand it, there is no accepted scientific theory explaining why human beings respond to it.

Why should a particular sequence of tonal frequencies affect someone's emotional state?

How come the same sequence of tonal frequencies that can cause me deep joy or deep sorrow has absolutely no affect on someone else? Why is it so personal? Is it nature or nurture?

What is the point of music? Why do we need it? What evolutionary purpose does it serve?

I suspect that it has something to do with socialization. People gather together to make music, or to listen to a performance. Also, I tend to like someone more if I know that they have similar taste in music to me. I feel a connection with them - even if we have little else in common.

I suppose I ought to make this more uke relevant I was thinking about how some people really like to focus on rhythm and others on melody. Some people like to fast strum - almost like they're using the uke as a percussion instrument. Others like to play fingerstyle - letting individual notes ring out. I know that there are plenty of people who like 'a bit of everything' (and keep a stable of different instruments to allow for different play styles) but there seem to be quite a few 'specialists' out there too. I wonder where those preferences spring from.

Is age a factor? It seems that people often have a predilection for the music that they grew up listening to. On the other hand you get teenagers joining the George Formby Society and I suspect that fans of Renaissance music weren't about when it was first conceived

Anyway I was just wondering if other people ever think about this stuff. I mean, music is kind of a weird phenomenon - I think it would be hard to explain it to a Martian (assuming that they're not all into Venusian drum and bass ) I think it would be especially hard to explain Justin Bieber

I suspect I might get a few "Hey man don't overthink it - just feel the music..." type responses. Which is fine - and that's pretty much what I do do most of the time. But every now and then I like to poke my head down the rabbit hole, which is what this thread is all about. I'm interested to hear if other people ever occasionally slip down there too.

jollyboy said:

I occasionally find myself thinking quite abstract thoughts about the nature of music. Music is so very important to so many people and yet, as I understand it, there is no accepted scientific theory explaining why human beings respond to it.



I suspect I might get a few "Hey man don't overthink it - just feel the music..." type responses. Which is fine - and that's pretty much what I do do most of the time. But every now and then I like to poke my head down the rabbit hole, which is what this thread is all about. I'm interested to hear if other people ever occasionally slip down there too.

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Ha ha, I'm one of those who says don't over think it, then I turn around and over think it. I've pondered the same questions many times, even before I started playing the ukulele. Just the other day I was sitting on my porch absent mindedly playing songs, and wondering which came first, music or music theory. But I am a pretty religious person, and without getting too much religion into my response, I often times think that perhaps the answer is beyond our human understanding. I especially think that when someone tries to explain music theory to me, and later I find a world of music that does not fit into the theory. I think to myself, we as humans strive to make sense of everything. We can't seem to accept anything for what it is. But really, there is no understanding, we just make up something, based on what we think we know, that answers the questions at a level we are capable of understanding, and in that we are convinced that we know what we really don't completely understand. Which is good it itself, but we have to realize that we there are limits to what we can understand.

But that is my thought on a lot of things, and music is just one of them. But I think that music is a gift that was given to us, and I also believe that that gift is not given to all of man kind in the same wrapping, but is given to each of us as an individual gift, and that concept to me is beyond human comprehension. At least in my case, I celebrate that gift that was given to me.

I think it would be especially hard to explain Justin Bieber

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Could anyone!

I do sometimes wonder how on earth some people can listen to some 'music'!

I don't think it is genetic, nor do I think it is 'learned' - what I like is very different from my parents' taste & that of my siblings.

I do believe that most of what we listen to is from our formative years, the music you heard on the radio (in my day), probably internet radio now, & what our peers are listening to.

Myself, I have a pretty eclectic taste in music, but tend to favour instrumantals over songs, probably because I hear sounds rather than words, unless I concerntrate.

Actually i think rlink touches on something important. The spiritual connection. Although music seems very different, i think it falls into the same category as art in many respects. I studied art so thought about all these questions in that light. But i am not going to take the time to summon up whatever it was i used to think and don't have them handy.

But i do know that art as in drawing was used a communication tool and it is often theorised that it was used to tell stories and also for religious purposes and i'm talking way back in the earliest days that we know about eg in primitive art.

I think the tendency for some individuals to come up wtih melodies like some individuals are just naturally good drawers is just something that humans can do and some do it so well even back then that it set up a social tradition.

Certainly music was used to tell stories too and in religious practices and becuase music captures moods so well those moods lend the story atmosphere. There is atmosphere in visual art too though the musical atmospheres and the resulting emotions are often more obvious.

If you think about church music, and the sense of the spiritual that it creates, especially if compounded by the architecture, well you can see how useful it is.

But i think its probably worth considering that the musical emotions are not universal. They do not seem to carry across cultures so this could explain the difference in individual responses too. But it seems that a lot of the best seems to create a strong and clear emotional response or have a clear atmosphere within our culture at least. When the emotional signals are blurred or confused or in contradiction of the lyrics, it doesn't seem to get so many gongs.

As to the "no accepted scientific theory" are you sure? Have you been reading lots of books on this? I mean you may be right but i'd think that there would a few points of concensus.

Oh yes there's that other thing, mimicry of birdsong.

But basically i think music and visual art is like language in that its just something humans (our bodies and brains) have a capacity for and so its natural that we would develop it sooner or later.

uke1950 said:

Could anyone!

Myself, I have a pretty eclectic taste in music, but tend to favour instrumantals over songs, probably because I hear sounds rather than words, unless I concerntrate.

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I favour songs over instrumentals because I like the human voice. I don't pay much attention to lyrics when i listen to a song. But now that i'm learning to sing them, i have started to give them more attention.

uke1950 said:

Could anyone!

I do sometimes wonder how on earth some people can listen to some 'music'!

I don't think it is genetic, nor do I think it is 'learned' - what I like is very different from my parents' taste & that of my siblings.

I do believe that most of what we listen to is from our formative years, the music you heard on the radio (in my day), probably internet radio now, & what our peers are listening to.

Myself, I have a pretty eclectic taste in music, but tend to favour instrumantals over songs, probably because I hear sounds rather than words, unless I concerntrate.

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Didn't our parents say the same thing about our music? I was working on some stuff for my 86 year old father-in-law the other day and he was listening to some older than oldies on the radio. I'm convinced that he thinks that any music that came about after the fifties is garbage.

Wow! What a great topic, jollyboy, you hit a home run (or a goal, or a wicket, etc.).

I really enjoy almost all kinds of music, but especially folk music. I don't like flamenco or rap or loud, raucous rock. But I usually enjoy it the most when I'm in the mood for a specific type of music. I usually plan what to play before I put a CD on, and, once in a while, the one I pick doesn't really move me, and I have to take it off. So it seems that my music tastes are emotion or mood driven. Sometimes I listen to stuff that I've been whistling all day, and sometimes when I'm daydreaming about the good ol' days I suddenly have a wild desire to hear some band marches. Many times when I'm looking through CDs at the store, I find myself whistling or humming the tunes I see.

I really live a music driven life. I probably drive my poor wife crazy with all the racket I make, but she doesn't complain . . . yet. I've been lookin' for somethin' else to do. Archery takes too much time, and it's too, too hot for cycling, but it's always a good time for music.

I dunno where all this music came from. My Mother usta love to go dancing, and she sang a little once in a while. My Dad was a very quiet man, and he didn't seem to care for music much though he did whistle a certain little tune sometimes--a private memory? Neither one cared anything about all the music I was making in school. They certainly didn't push (or help) me, yet I was pretty good then. I usta listen to my Mom's records.

One of the biggest music mistakes I ever made was not teaching music to my kids. My son took guitar lessons, but he didn't work at it, and I didn't help him. Shame, shame on me. I guess I took after my parents.

Well, I guess that's it. I could write a lot more on this topic, but this your lucky day--I won't. ld:

A recent scholarly paper proposed a universal recognition of three basic emotions in music - happy, sad, and scared/fearful.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(09)00813-6.pdf

Rllink said:

Didn't our parents say the same thing about our music? I was working on some stuff for my 86 year old father-in-law the other day and he was listening to some older than oldies on the radio. I'm convinced that he thinks that any music that came about after the fifties is garbage.

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Was there music after The Beatles?

I'm one who says don't over think it, but at the same time I learned more about the use of music when my uke group did a donation to The Ukulele Kids Club that provides ukuleles to hospitalized children in music therapy programs. That made me more aware of the value of music for rehabilitation. Also, our uke group leader, Cali Rose, will often bring in an article about how playing music is good for the well being and health of seniors.

There are many studies on how the brain reacts to music - vibrational frequencies when heard by the ear and transmitted to the brain. The brain is stimulated. Lots of interesting research being done. I like how it also permeates the soul, the mind, the heart. It is amazing. It is emotive. It is cognitive. It is spiritual. It is visceral. It is practical. It is mathematical. It is ethereal. It is the universal language.

Ever listen to Chinese Music? Or Viet Namese Music. Very Different from Willy or Johnny or Moody Blues. Yet the Chinese seem to like it?

I tend to like instrumentals over songs too.:music: Like Keith, I hear the Uke but don't understand the words easily. ld:

JackLuis said:

Ever listen to Chinese Music? Or Viet Namese Music. Very Different from Willy or Johnny or Moody Blues. Yet the Chinese seem to like it?

I tend to like instrumentals over songs too.:music: Like Keith, I hear the Uke but don't understand the words easily. ld:

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I have a coupla Chinese and Japanese CDs, and some other Asian ones too. I like 'em a lot though they are differerent.

One has to open his/her mind and try to feel new, different music. ld:

stevejfc said:

Was there music after The Beatles?

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No.

(Except maybe some ukulele music. George would have approved of that.)

Interesting discussion! I tend to be pretty all-over-the-place when it comes to music, and the things I outright dislike, across the board, are few and far between. There are a few musical forms that pretty much provoke anxiety in me - usually things that are loud and fast, such as really frenetic bluegrass banjo picking, or things with a repetitive pounding beat (rap, and I think something the kids call EDM these days, for example). I can't explain my negative response to this but I assume it's got to have something to do with how my brain's wired. In general, I'm just not someone who is "built for speed" and I prefer a quiet, slower pace. I wouldn't go so far as to say I "hate" those music forms, but I certainly do my best to avoid them.

As for things I respond very positively to - musically, pentatonic scale and minor keys are at the top for me, and have been as long as I can remember. This is a bit out-there but - in my circle of friends there tends to be a lot of Eastern European heritage and one friend joked that we are genetically predisposed over centuries to be gloomy and depressed and as a result, we are drawn to gloomy and depressing art forms Highly unscientific, but there's certainly a lot of minor keys in some of that music and dark themes in some of that art, so... it's as good of an explanation as any for me!

I have listened to some Indian, Pakisani, & other asian music, also some Greek, & a few others that I can't remember just now.

Some of it is quite likeable, despite being totally different to the normal Western style of music, however, it isn't the kind of music I mainly prefer to listen to.

jollyboy said:

Anyway I was just wondering if other people ever think about this stuff. I mean, music is kind of a weird phenomenon - I think it would be hard to explain it to a Martian (assuming that they're not all into Venusian drum and bass ) I think it would be especially hard to explain Justin Bieber

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It might be hard to explain music to a Martian, but maybe they could experience it themselves if exposed to our music. I'd love to know what they listen to as music. Perhaps they're supporters of Bieber?

Actually, I think that every generation has their own Justin Bieber for the youngsters, and it's about more than just the music. At least it gets the tweens involved with music of some sort.

Back to your other questions, though:

I think you're correct that we have a definite preference for the music that we grew up listening to, even the goofy stuff that we know isn't great music. The fans of Renaissance music might not have been around when it was first being played, but it still might have been music that they grew up listening to in their family or other social setting. Or, for some of us, the background of a very eclectic range of music that we grew up with may have us still exploring new-to-us music, and enjoying all kinds of music.

I have wondered why music is very important to me, and yet others don't seem to care about it at all. Again, that might point to my family background, and childhood experiences, which other people weren't fortunate enough, (from my point of view), to share. Or, they have some other outlet for the roles that music provides for me, (creativity, the emotional aspect, working towards a goal, learning new things, having a hobby), and they don't need music in the same way.

Interesting topic.

Edited to add:
I have wondered why a lot of people don't seem to go to concerts to listen to music. People will come home from a concert and talk about everything except the music. It's not enough to have great musicians playing great music. There needs to be fireworks, complex set designs and staging, and so on. The music can get lost in all the added layers.

One more response from me. Obviously, this thread has me intrigued.

Someone gave me a CD that was supposedly put together with what are supposed to be soothing sounds, (music), for dogs. One of my dogs consistently leaves the room in a huff if I put that CD on. (I didn't like it either, but was willing to play it for my dogs if they liked it.) She does love Beethoven string quartets...and Kanye West. I'm happy to play Beethoven for her, but she's on her own with Kanye. But I do find it fascinating that she has strong opinions about music, while my other 2 dogs are less obvious about their preferences, (if any.)

something I find tremendously interesting, though I don't know as much of the 'theory' as I would like, is the link between music and memory, which is possibly connected to why its such a good therapy tool.

For instance, you can find many examples of people so far gone with dementia they don't remember even how to speak, but they recognise a piece of music loved in the past.

I'm going to dive back into the discussion, responding to some of what others have posted. I'm not going to bother quoting people...

I think it's good that religion gets a mention. I didn't say anything it in my initial post but music's connection with the spiritual side of life is also something that intrigues me. Sacred music can be very powerful stuff and, again, I wonder why that is. How is it that people can be so moved by this external auditory phenomenon - to the point where it can feel almost transcendant? Personally I'm an agnostic but I can feel the energy in, say, a bluesy gospel track. I posted in another thread that Uncloudy Day by the Staple Singers was a favourite song of mine.

And yeah maybe I should just let the mystery be (as Iris Dement suggests - that's a reference for DUD )

Instrumental music vs song - that's an interesting 'split' - what causes someone to prefer one over the other? From what people have said it sounds as though maybe some people 'process' lyrics and melodies differently. Dunno...

The generational thing has been mentioned a few times - I think that music is, in this case, part of a wider phenomenon. The tension that exists between the younger and older generation as the younger generation seeks to establish it's own identity and independence. So yeah that's a wheel that's just gonna keep turning I would think. What's interesting to me is that I always remember it being the older generation complaining that the 'new music' was too loud and fast. I grew up listening to post-punk and alt rock and my problem with the music that young people listen to today is that a lot of it is horribly bland and insipid. I wish it was a bit louder and faster

Music and Art - it's interesting to me that human beings have the capacity to see beauty in things - that we have a sense of aesthetics. Seems like that's something that's distinctly a part of higher consciousness.

Music as therapy - I'm totally into this. I absolutely believe that music promotes positive mental health. I linked to the wikipedia page for Melody Gardot in another thread. Her backstory is pretty interesting.

Cultural differences in music - I think that's a really interesting topic for discussion... but I'm gonna stop waffling for a bit now