How many layers in laminate ukes? Which woods are inside?

I very well understand that there are reasons for using laminates in some ukes.

Some woods like spalted maple don’t have the structural strength needed for a stable uke body. The addition of one, or more likely 2 layers of stronger wood, with one layer having the grains across the uke body, adds strength.

Laminates also allow for woods of lesser cosmetic quality to be used in the inner layers under a thin layers of quality wood even with a standard uke wood like mahogany. Thereby keeping prices down.

Some woods like koa are expensive and are stretched by being used in thin layers on top of layers of more standard woods.

But which woods are used for the inner layers?

Are brighter sounding and very responsive woods like spruce used to counteract the dampening effect of lamination?

Are the sound properties of rhe inner layers part of the sound design of an instrument?

I have a solid mahogany O’Nino from Ohana, which I like, so I won’t use it for some experiments with alternative stringing that I am considering. So I might buy the O’Nina from the same maker. The O’Nina is made of laminated willow for top, sides, and bottom. The photos I have seen are beautiful.

Any knowledge here about which wood is used for the inner layers of the laminate?

Klaus

Looking closely at my laminates, it looks like 3 layers, a middle, thicker layer which is probably mahogany or a similar wood, then a top and bottom thin veneer, the top layer being more cosmetically pleasing.

A master of all trades and jack of none told me that ALL laminate ukes have exactly eleventy-nine layers but they are all the fraction of the diameter of a human hair and bonded together in a cross-wise pattern to have great strength....


I really dont know - and I admit that I was just looking for a reason to write 'eleventy-nine' in a post and have no excuse for doing so...

When it comes to a laminated soundbox, how you go about it is an integral part of the design. You are, in a way, constructing a new type of wood. As you do so you decide how you want it to work with the rest of your design. Flexibility vs. stiffness is one of the first concerns, and what you are looking for there determines your laminate design.

The first ones, the "high end" 18th century construction, were two layer. Three layer is more common today but 5 layers or more can be possible. Woods should still have good acoustic properties, but plain jane material like Poplar, for instance (Loprinzi), are used for price considerations, epecially in interior layers.

Glue is the other big consideration, as the wrong sort can dampen the acoustics. And finally the inner layer of the back has more effect on sound than the center or outer layers, while the outer layer of the top is most important.

Your best bet on determing whether or not you'd like the Ohana Willow would of course, be to play one. Other than that, you'll just need to go by the reputation of the company as far as their ability to design with laminates.

imperialbari said:

I have a solid mahogany O’Nino from Ohana, which I like, so I won’t use it for some experiments with alternative stringing that I am considering. So I might buy the O’Nina from the same maker. The O’Nina is made of laminated willow for top, sides, and bottom. The photos I have seen are beautiful.

Any knowledge here about which wood is used for the inner layers of the laminate?

Klaus

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Not sure , but however I want to note that I recall Ken Middleton stating that the laminate willows used in ohana ukes are actually more expensive than even the solid mahogany tone wood they use.

I actually believe that bc when I did handle a willow wood laminate back ohana uke before, it was very punchy and solid-toned, it didn't remind me of a laminate tone at all. It really kicked.
However, ymmv w the o'nino as the one I had was a soprano SK 50wg

The sweetest sounding part-laminate uke I own is an Ohana concert. Solid cedar top, laminate willow back and sides. It had punch and depth. A spruce top with the willow back might actually be too bright.

a company like kiwaya could tell you something about how to laminate as their stuff is world class. japanese quality outfits, that's nearly all outfits, don't do things without plenty of experience, thought, and engineering. going by kiwaya's example, quality mahogany lamination with very thin plies and i would guess formaldehyde glue. there's plenty of time and cost making it but a sheet of whatever size is going to make plenty of sopranos.

I have some Kiwaya's and Famous'es and they're fantastic

^that's a great collection. Would you say there is a slight difference between the famous line and kiwaya or is it just the name?

Debussychopin said:

^that's a great collection. Would you say there is a slight difference between the famous line and kiwaya or is it just the name?

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They're essentially the same thing so far as I can tell. The Famous have geared tuners, while the Kiwaya have friction tuners. Quality, low-action, great intonation, appear to be consistent among them. The glossy laminate Koa's are definitely the better looking of the group though compared to the matte laminate mahogany finish.

Not all the Famous line have geared tuners though many of them do. I'm not sure of all the permutations but it seems to be a matter of branding, on Amazon UK for instance the Famous line is available and the KS of the Kiwaya seem to line up with the FS of the Famous line looks t o me that its almost entirely a matter of branding. If I was in the market for a laminate I'd have no hesitation in ordering a Kiwaya / Famous I've owned a KS-1 and I've handled an FS-5 and they both seemed super instruments. (and essentially the same only different in detail and of course badging, NB The Kiwaymous laminates seem slightly bigger than their solid wood counterparts.)

southern ukulele store in the UK has an FS-5 for sale and that seems to be their take on it as well.

It very much depends on the laminate in question.

At the lower end, the inner woods will be the cheapest they can find, usually in thick ply. It will be bass wood, linden wood or similar.

Higher end laminates, or professional laminates will use much thinner woods, and the sandwich will usually be layers of the same wood.

And I don't believe for a single second that the laminate willow Ohana use costs more than good quality solid tonewood willow.

I have ordered the O’Nina from SUS today. Hopefully it arrives this week, but Monday may be more likely.

And no, neither I have any illusions that the laminated willow is a top end solution. In the UK, from where I buy mine, it is 10GBP cheaper than the solid mahogany O’Nino that I already have. Which I won't challenge, because one lesson of a long life with many instruments is that if one has a good sample of a model, then one cannot be sure about getting an equally good sample again. My O’Nino may be made in China, but it has this qualitu of being alive and responsive, which is not bestowed on all instruments.

In the normal reentrant uke tuning the 3 first strings are in linear tuningwith the 4th string being raised an octave. What I am planning on is about linear tuning of the 3 last strings with the first being lowered an octave. That would allow for a wider selection of tunings so that I could have ukes tuned to each of the 12 chromatic pitches and still be able to use the same chord patterns.

Klaus

The O’Nina arrived Monday, and I almost at once took off the Aquila strings and mounted Martin M600 soprano strings, which gave a more singing sound as expected from doing the same to the O’Nino.

As for the laminates: they appear like being different between top/bottom and then the side.

Top & bottom have the obvious outer layer of willow, a thicker middle layer of whitish wood, and an inner layer of mahogany.

The side cannot be seen by a cutting edge, as these are covered by top & bottom, respectively. Yet the inner layer can be seen through the sound hole. That layer is whitish and feels quite wooly from the raised grain, when touching it.

That whitish wood has no grain patterns that I can see. From no other measurement than the senses of my fingers the side appears being thicker than the top.

When I tuned the O’Nino in E and the O’Nina in F, the latter had a more uniform balance between the strings than the O’Nino, which on the other hand appeared livelier with more high overtones.

I then switched the tunings. The O’Nino became better balanced between the strings when tuned in F. It kept its being alive. The O’Nina kept its good balance also when tuned in E and still sounds slightly louder than the O’Nino. So that is where I will let the tunings stay for now.

The O’Nina sounds good and I don’t regret buying it. Yet, if I had to keep only one, it would be the O’Nino due to the more refined and alive overtones. In the UK the price difference is only 10GBP, so the price is not a heavy decision factor. I certainly would understand players needing an efficient strumming tool, when they would prefer the O’Nina.

Klaus

A PS to the above posting:

Very much to my surprise the large brace between the bridge and the sound hole (closer to the latter) is deeper on the O’Nina. I would have thought that laminates always were stronger than the solid boards, so that the laminate version would have had a lighter brace.

Klaus

imperialbari said:

In the normal reentrant uke tuning the 3 first strings are in linear tuningwith the 4th string being raised an octave. What I am planning on is about linear tuning of the 3 last strings with the first being lowered an octave. That would allow for a wider selection of tunings so that I could have ukes tuned to each of the 12 chromatic pitches and still be able to use the same chord patterns.

Klaus

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What you are describing is called Cuatro tuning. You can read about it on the Southcoast strings site.

I have read that, but wasn’t sure everybody knew the quatro.

Anyway I had to give up the experiment as the slid in the O’Nina bridge for the fourth string wouldn’t allow for the thicker M620 3rd string. Ain’t gonna mess with that slid right now, even if I have the tools.

Klaus

Where did you get information that spalted maple does not have structural strength? I have a couple which are highly figued and spalted and have no problems with them whatsoever. Both are custom made.

southcoastukes said:

Glue is the other big consideration, as the wrong sort can dampen the acoustics. And finally the inner layer of the back has more effect on sound than the center or outer layers, while the outer layer of the top is most important.

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I've thought about that before. I mean, we discuss tone woods. Are all glues created equal? Do some glues have better sound qualities than others, or is that just subjective? I think that we need a long and protracted discussion on the types of glues used in the construction of the laminates, the thickness of the glue, the sound qualities of the different glues, and how that affects the overall sound.

Could a glue that soaked well into lighter and more porous woods and then hardened to a high degree of hardness actually improve the acoustical properties of the original woods in a laminate? Brittleness of course would be a risk.

I am no expert on laminates, but from my understanding of elementary mechanics (as a branch of science) I would imagine that it is the elasticity between layers responding differently to sound waves that absorbs the energy emitted by the string vibrations. Which is more fatal for the lower-energy high frequencies than for the higher-energy low frequencies.

Could a really hard glue diminish that elasticity to an insignificant level and thereby produce very alive laminated tonewoods?

In a way one might say that this already has happened. The Blackbird Farallon, which is a very alive instrument, is made from linen fibers, which in their original form rather are dampening sounds. But then they are kept together with a resin to form the Ekoa material, which only reaches its final sound properties after hardening in the mould.

The same could be said about the Richlite fingerboards used at least by Martin, Gibson, and Blackbird to circumwent problems in procuring sufficient amounts of the right hardwoods.

Klaus