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Ukecaster
03-21-2017, 03:55 AM
I've seen posts on D tuning, with lots of love for that, especially on soprano. What are the benefits of that? Are all the chord shapes different when using D tuning?

Mivo
03-21-2017, 04:25 AM
The chord shapes are the same, but the chords they produce are two semi-tones higher. So the standard tuning C chord shape is a D chord, the standard tuning A chord shape is a B chord, and so on.

Benefits are a bit subjective and may include somewhat higher string tension, increased (perceived) volume, sweeter tone (less muddy), possibly better intonation due to higher tension. It really depends on the instrument. My vintage soprano sounds best in D tuning, by a mile, whereas the Black Bear sounds better in C tuning.

What I do recommend is to use strings designed for D tuning. It's commonly suggested to just use soprano strings and tune them up. My experience with that is that the tension gets too high (strangles the sound, may damage the instrument) and it sounds poor. I recommend the Aquila D tuning strings (33U is the product code), which are thinner than the regular C tuning strings and work really well for that tuning.

zztush
03-21-2017, 12:16 PM
I recommend the Aquila D tuning strings (33U is the product code), which are thinner than the regular C tuning strings and work really well for that tuning.

Hi, movo!

We have several thickness sets in every guitar strings sets, eg. light gauge, medium gauge.. We can change strings tension and power by gauge diameter instead of changing tuning. Why don't you try thick strings on C tuning in order to get higher tension? In other word, why do you use thinner diameter for D tuning? You lost your string power on D.

CeeJay
03-21-2017, 01:31 PM
I've seen posts on D tuning, with lots of love for that, especially on soprano. What are the benefits of that? Are all the chord shapes different when using D tuning?

Same shapes ,different chords.....GCEA.... 0003 is C ADF#B same position is D....ADF#B used to be the standard tuning . I have a tuition book published in the 30 s and still sold in the 70 s which teaches in ADF#B...

Mivo
03-21-2017, 05:37 PM
Why don't you try thick strings on C tuning in order to get higher tension? In other word, why do you use thinner diameter for D tuning? You lost your string power on D.

I tried regular C tuning strings (Living Water, Martin, Aquila 4U) for D tuning and the results were poor. There was too much tension and the instruments sounded strangled. Too much tension can kill the sound and the volume. I also believe the tension was so high that it was unhealthy for the bridge. The Aquila D tuning strings (33U) have slightly more tension than C tuning strings have in C tuning (on soprano), but less than C tuning strings have when they are tuned up to D. The thinner strings also give more clarity up the neck. You don't lose any power or sound by using strings designed for D tuning.

Tootler
03-21-2017, 11:37 PM
I have tried both my Cloud music and Bruko sopranos in both tunings simply tuning up using standard soprano strings (Living Water/Worth Clears) and found they both sounded fine in both tunings. I didn't get a sense of either too high tension or a strangled sound. I've settled for the Bruko in C tuning as it sounds naturally very bright and the Cloud Music in D tuning as it gives it a bit more zing. I've just not found it a major issue using "standard" soprano strings in D tuning. I've also tuned a Kala Soprano up to D tuning and it sounded just fine with standard soprano strings. I tuned it back down, though and passed it on to my granddaughter.

CeeJay referred to his 30s tutor book using D tuning as its standard. I also have a 30s tutor book that teaches using D tuning but they also say that you need to be prepared to retune for different songs and sheet music of that era would actually tell you which tuning to use and it's clear from the tutor book that you were expected to retune for different songs and as well as C and D tuning they would use Eb tuning, a semitone higher than D tuning (BbEbGC) which would increase the tension even more. Interestingly they recommended D & A violin strings as being much better quality than most strings sold as ukulele strings. This was in the days before the invention of nylon and other modern polymers when all that was available were gut strings.

If you are happiest with C tuning and don't like the higher tension that tuning up brings, you can always use a capo. Capo 2 will give you D tuning and Capo 3, Eb tuning. Using a capo is a good way of getting D tuning in the larger sizes where the tension on tuning up becomes much more of an issue.

I understand James Hill happily retuned his ukes if he feels the need for a different tuning during a gig.

phil hague
03-22-2017, 01:06 AM
Capo on 2 is a good solution. I'd been playing for years before I caught onto that one. Play a lot of fingerstyle stuff and it saves me having two different tuned ukes. I haven't come across Eb tunings so can't comment on it.

Ukecaster
03-22-2017, 01:48 AM
Very interesting...thanks all for the great info! Sounds like the capo at 2 gives you the D tuning, without the extra tension, but I assume some folks may prefer to tune up to D to also get the extra tension?

Tootler
03-22-2017, 02:00 AM
If you don't like the higher tension there are low tension strings available. Southcoast seem to have low tension sets available and Worth make a low tension set they are branded BL or CL depending on whether they are brown or clear. I'm sure Ken Middleton would make up a set for you. I'm not a great fan of high tension strings but as most standard soprano strings are relatively low tension anyway, I don't find tuning up on soprano increases the tension to an unacceptable degree but that's purely a personal view.

Mivo
03-22-2017, 02:05 AM
With such a short scale, using a capo in the second fret doesn't feel overly practical to me. It'll also sound differently than a D tuned soprano because the strings are even shorter, so there is less volume and sustain. Personally, and probably controversially, I feel that capos make sense with guitars, but not really with ukuleles (at least not with a soprano). But as with all things, nothing is a absolute and something may work for you that doesn't work for others, and vice visa. :)

Using Aquila 33U strings for D tuning side steps the tension issue.

Tootler
03-22-2017, 03:03 AM
I tend to agree with you about a capo on a soprano, more for practical reasons. As you say, the scale length is too short and I find it gets in the way of the left hand but it can be made to work if need be. Generally it's better to have two sopranos, one in C-tuning and one in D-tuning and sopranos are small enough to take two out if you play out. OTOH, it's not too difficult to retune, if need be and unlike Mivo I don't feel either the higher tension or the different tone is really a major problem. I actually have come to realise that we sometimes see problems with the tone of our instruments that actually aren't there. I have a tenor Fluke tuned dGBE and I felt that the G string tended to sound a bit dull but many people listening to me have made complimentary remarks about the tone of the instrument and that's made me realise we don't hear our instruments in the same way others do and maybe what we see as faults with the tone actually aren't faults at all they are just part of the character of the instrument. My message is that if you aren't too happy with a new tuning on a uke, before you dismiss it, try it out on others first. If you get positive feedback then maybe the tuning actually does sound fine and it's worth keeping.

I do like a capo on concert and tenor. I particularly like a capo on 2 on my six string tenor, it adds a brightness which I like for some songs. Capo works well on a baritone though capo 5 is pushing it a bit but is a useful quick fix to get GCEA, but much better on 3 and playing C-tuning shapes to get Bb is good.

zztush
03-22-2017, 06:38 PM
mivo

When I want to increase string tension on my guitar with extra light goage, I change my strings to light goage or medium goage. I don't change the tuning. Why do you change your tuning from C to D instead of getting thicker strings in order to increase string tension?

Sent from the mobile client - Forum Talker

Mivo
03-22-2017, 08:59 PM
When I want to increase string tension on my guitar with extra light goage, I change my strings to light goage or medium goage. I don't change the tuning. Why do you change your tuning from C to D instead of getting thicker strings in order to increase string tension?

I prefer the sound of D tuning on at least two of my sopranos. I did not change to D tuning solely to get higher tension, but because the tuning (all aspects of it) makes these ukuleles sound much better to my ears. I also don't care for thick strings on ukuleles as they are more thuddy sounding to me (the third string in particular).

jimavery
03-24-2017, 03:53 AM
I find that very often songs have been transposed down to C major to make them easier to play, but can then be too low for my voice. A simple solution for me is to pick up a ukulele in D tuning, play it with the same chord shapes and voila!, both the uke and I sound happier!

Personally I keep three ukes, one in C, one in D and one in Eb so I can play and sing in whatever key I feel comfortable. To be honest though, D is so close to Eb, the Eb uke rarely comes out of its case. On one occasion I resorted to playing my sopranino in F when I couldn't be bothered to transpose a song to make it singable. If I were only allowed one ukulele, it'd be a soprano and I'd keep it in D tuning.

Pirate Jim
03-24-2017, 04:50 AM
Worth noting that the Living Water soprano and concert strings are the same strings, so tuning up to D on a soprano will give you the concert ukulele tension on the soprano. I plan to give it a go in the next week or two.

On a different note, I've just put some Venezuelan cuatro strings on my baritone uke, tuned ADF#B with a low A and a low B. Sounds great strummed, sounds weird fingerpicked but I just need to adjust my patterns to get the best out of it. Although the scale length of a baritone uke and a cuatro are roughly the same, the cuatro strings are fairly low tension - I'm assuming cuatros are lightly built. My baritone is not lightly built so I feel with these strings it's lost a bit of oomph, but it's a tuning I'm really enjoying. If you like D tuning then could be fun to have a baritone like this and a soprano an octave higher!

CeeJay
03-24-2017, 04:51 AM
I find that very often songs have been transposed down to C major to make them easier to play, but can then be too low for my voice. A simple solution for me is to pick up a ukulele in D tuning, play it with the same chord shapes and voila!, both the uke and I sound happier!

Personally I keep three ukes, one in C, one in D and one in Eb so I can play and sing in whatever key I feel comfortable. To be honest though, D is so close to Eb, the Eb uke rarely comes out of its case. On one occasion I resorted to playing my sopranino in F when I couldn't be bothered to transpose a song to make it singable. If I were only allowed one ukulele, it'd be a soprano and I'd keep it in D tuning.

This is what Ukers used to do back in the 50's through to when I lost interest in the 80's to other instruments. The new wave of ukers seem to take over and change things with a whole new (older and young) generation of players and a whole new generation of marketing men making extra special strings and pretending it wasn't just fishing line. I really do think that the whole uke movement has become overthought and maybe a little too ponderous.

It's starting to feel a bit like golf equipment. The best set of clubs does not make you the best player, it makes you a player with the best set of clubs.AS for all the other paraphenalia , well that's up to the individual,picks ,finger picks ,straps (my views are well known on these lol) and now arguing/discussing tuning.

Here's the thing , Jim has it right ,if you are playing accompaniment to sing long with on your own , then tune it to YOU . If you are wanting to try different keys , change the tuning or the uke for one in a D or Eb or whatever tuning. That is the ideal for the soprano uke . The picked strummed style that is the most popular in the UK . I think the simplicity has been thrown out with the baby and the bathwater and that for many is what the attraction of the uke was ....is ...and probably ever shall be ...Spock out.

Pirate Jim
03-24-2017, 08:03 AM
This is what Ukers used to do back in the 50's through to when I lost interest in the 80's to other instruments. The new wave of ukers seem to take over and change things with a whole new (older and young) generation of players and a whole new generation of marketing men making extra special strings and pretending it wasn't just fishing line. I really do think that the whole uke movement has become overthought and maybe a little too ponderous.

It's starting to feel a bit like golf equipment. The best set of clubs does not make you the best player, it makes you a player with the best set of clubs.AS for all the other paraphenalia , well that's up to the individual,picks ,finger picks ,straps (my views are well known on these lol) and now arguing/discussing tuning.

Here's the thing , Jim has it right ,if you are playing accompaniment to sing long with on your own , then tune it to YOU . If you are wanting to try different keys , change the tuning or the uke for one in a D or Eb or whatever tuning. That is the ideal for the soprano uke . The picked strummed style that is the most popular in the UK . I think the simplicity has been thrown out with the baby and the bathwater and that for many is what the attraction of the uke was ....is ...and probably ever shall be ...Spock out.

I don't doubt for a second that there are legions of players out there who don't mess about with the technicalities of it all but just play in the way that suits them best. You're always going to find the people who like to tinker, try things, understand the physics of it all on forums though, for anything. The sort of enthusiast who will go on the forum is the sort who likes to go into the real detail of a hobby, people who like it simple will not find much of interest on these pages (they'll probably like the tabs, videos and marketplace though). It's more the nature of forum users, less the state of ukulele players as a whole. My sister plays, has her uke, likes it, nuff said. You won't find her here.

CeeJay
03-24-2017, 08:41 AM
I don't doubt for a second that there are legions of players out there who don't mess about with the technicalities of it all but just play in the way that suits them best. You're always going to find the people who like to tinker, try things, understand the physics of it all on forums though, for anything. The sort of enthusiast who will go on the forum is the sort who likes to go into the real detail of a hobby, people who like it simple will not find much of interest on these pages (they'll probably like the tabs, videos and marketplace though). It's more the nature of forum users, less the state of ukulele players as a whole. My sister plays, has her uke, likes it, nuff said. You won't find her here.

True, each to their own and the similar...

zztush
03-24-2017, 05:27 PM
Hi, CeeJay!

I think you don't need tuner. You can tune the pitch of ukulele how you hear the best.

https://s1.postimg.org/8ddhumkpr/images.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gvmxyyr8b/)upload images free (https://postimage.org/)

CeeJay
03-24-2017, 10:40 PM
Hi, CeeJay!

I think you don't need tuner. You can tune the pitch of ukulele how you hear the best.

https://s1.postimg.org/8ddhumkpr/images.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/gvmxyyr8b/)upload images free (https://postimage.org/)

That's what we did as lads. Tune to My Bum Is Green and then to each others uke if playing in a group....of course if we were near the chapel we'd use the big black tuner with the ivory keys....lol no electronic tuners in the early 70s ...and pitch pipes are useful for just that ....pitching..........

zztush
03-24-2017, 10:47 PM
Hi, CeeJay! I don't mean that.


Here's the thing , Jim has it right ,if you are playing accompaniment to sing long with on your own , then tune it to YOU . If you are wanting to try different keys , change the tuning or the uke for one in a D or Eb or whatever tuning. That is the ideal for the soprano uke .

I think you don't need tuner. You don't need D or Eb either. You just tune what you want.

Pirate Jim
03-25-2017, 05:58 AM
:smileybounce:My bum is green has now forever replaced my dog has fleas in my mind - thanks for that :D

CeeJay
03-25-2017, 07:37 AM
"Did" being the operative word. Back then, there were no other choices, and consequently, we played out of tune a lot. I've got a good ear, and yet I get better, more consistent tuning when I use an electronic tuner—in the right way. It's good to know how to tune a uke without a gizmo, but only a fool encourages others to forego them entirely. He may be a fool to forego them himself, not knowing how bad he sounds to others.

"Need" is also relative: you don't "need" to play in any key but C, if that's your self-limiting choice. But if one insists that one tuning will suffice for everything, he's being willfully myopic, projecting his own limited "needs" on others who aspire to better things, who have greater abilities (or just other needs). Several songs leap to mind that, for my voice range and the way I want to play them, require a tuning other than C. I could make do in a different tuning, but not without making substantial sacrifices, and with no improvements to compensate; even capoing isn't a viable option.

I don't understand the folks who feel a need to hold everyone else back to their own basic level of competence, their own dogmatic and over-simplistic viewpoint. "You don't need this, you don't need that (because I don't use them)." Well, who are you to decide?

Not sure to whom you are addressing your point Ubu. Would you mind please being a little more clear on this , if it's me , please do say . I am simply having a conversation so it would be nice to know which part of your comment is applicable.

AS for electronic tuners ...I bought one when they first came out and were BIG money ,I have never looked back tuning wise. And they are also the subject a bone of contention amongst Forum Folk as well, so more grist to the mill. I'm off to play some uke now...:D

UkuleleHill
03-25-2017, 07:51 AM
Remember guys, please keep it civil and no bashing other users.

zztush
03-25-2017, 12:28 PM
Hi, CeeJay! I still do not use electric tuner. I use pitch pipes for ukulele and guitar. There are no pitch pipe for guitalele on the earth so far.

The people, tune D here, are tunes what they likes to their ear or voice.

We tune our instruments to other instruments through tuner (See the green arrows below).

The purpose of D tuning here is tuning what they like to their ear. We don't need to use tuners (red arrow) on this purpose. I actually do not use tuner sometimes.

https://s24.postimg.org/bum9draj9/unnamed2.png (https://postimg.org/image/q1208zle9/)image sharing (https://postimage.org/)

zztush
03-26-2017, 05:29 PM
Hi, Hill!


Remember guys, please keep it civil and no bashing other users.

Why do you you say "guys"? It is always ubulele. As long as you say guys, he will never stop bashing other users.

Mivo
03-26-2017, 11:27 PM
The people, tune D here, are tunes what they likes to their ear or voice.


This has nothing to do with tuning by ear, though. Only because I prefer the sound of D tuning (it's not "detuning") on a soprano doesn't mean I shouldn't want to use an electronic tuner to get accurate pitches for the strings. What you say is kind of like saying, "If you like vanilla ice cream, you buy it in a bowl from an ice cream place. But if you prefer chocolate ice cream, you should make the ice cream at home and lick it off the table because you like the taste of chocolate." There's no correlation between a tuning preference and how (or if) you accurately tune your strings.

zztush
03-27-2017, 12:59 AM
Hi, Mivo! Thank you for replying!

I mean that you don't need exactly D, don't you? D# or Db maybe better. or slightly sharper than D or flatter than D may be better for your ear or voice, because you tune as you like. Therefore I said you don't need tuners.

jimavery
03-27-2017, 01:40 AM
To be clear, when I tune ADF#B, I do so using a tuner of some sort (could be an app, clip-on tuner, a good old-fashioned tuning fork or whatever) because I like to know for sure that I'm in that tuning.

I sometimes play in D tuning along with other players who are in C tuning (obviously I'm playing different chord shapes to them). It helps to lift the sound of the group if we're not all playing the same chord voicing.

Obviously if you use pitch pipes for tuning, you would need a set of pipes specifically for D tuning, for example this one:-

https://www.ellismusic.com/p-11462-kratt-sn4-ukulele-pitch-pipe.aspx

Or you could use a chromatic set:-

https://www.ellismusic.com/p-11458-kratt-chromatic-pitch-pipe-c-to-c.aspx

zztush
03-27-2017, 12:00 PM
Hi, jimavery! Thank you for reply!

You are tuning D with your tuner in order to best sound with your voice (red circle on the figure below). That is fine. And it is a kind of tuning. In general, we tune our instruments to other instruments with tuner. This is the important point. We don't tune to tuner but we tune to other instruments. Hence our tuning and your tuning are aiming different purpose. The results happens crosses on the bottom figure. You said your voice is not good for C (red cross), hence you tune to D.

C or G tuned instruments are tuned well because they keep perfect 4th relationships within instruments and perfect 5th relationships between instruments (red circle). But your D does not have this relationship to other instruments (red cross).

https://s19.postimg.org/gu38863nn/combine_images2.png (https://postimg.org/image/dn8oojj7j/)free image host (https://postimage.org/)

Song key and instrument key are different. We normally change song key to fix our voice. You change instrument key to fix your voice.

CeeJay
03-27-2017, 12:53 PM
If I am tuned in D I can still play in C ...I can tune in any key and play any key on that instrument because it is a chromatic instrument. I can also tune it to my voice (troubadour tuning ) and as long as the instrument sings My Bum Has Fleas it will play the chord shapes that I choose to use.

BUT most importantly, whatever key that I tune to,as long as I know the relevant chord shapes then I can play with any key . It is the chord shapes relative to each other. The same shape .Different chord.

zztush
03-27-2017, 01:12 PM
Hi, CeeJay!

You can play in C on D tuning instruments. But the playability is very bad compare to C tuning instruments. More over we can not use strings efficiently. Chord shapes are complicated. And the result directly affect to the sound even on pros. Even it is a chromatic instruments, keys are not equal in any meanings.

Yes you "can" play with any key but the results are different and we use our brain in order to get best results.

CeeJay
03-27-2017, 02:02 PM
Hi, CeeJay!

You can play in C on D tuning instruments. But the playability is very bad compare to C tuning instruments. More over we can not use strings efficiently. Chord shapes are complicated. And the result directly affect to the sound even on pros. Even it is a chromatic instruments, keys are not equal in any meanings.

Yes you "can" play with any key but the results are different and we use our brain in order to get best results.

Chord shapes are chord shapes ...the chord shape for a C on a D tuned instrument is the same shape as a first position
Bb on a C tuned doohickey.... It is only the same as capoing the instrument...

Sayonara. I am done with this ,it goes round in squircles. See you on another thread.

Ken Middleton
03-27-2017, 09:43 PM
...
I'm not a great fan of high tension strings but as most standard soprano strings are relatively low tension anyway, I don't find tuning up on soprano increases the tension to an unacceptable degree but that's purely a personal view.

I absolutely agree. Regular soprano strings easily tune up a full step without any problems. Tension is just fine.

jimavery
03-27-2017, 10:15 PM
You change instrument key to fix your voice.

No, zztush, the instrument does not have a "key". It has a "tuning". In that tuning it can be played in any key, albeit some keys might have more difficult chord shapes than others for that tuning.

There are lots of reasons why I might want to tune my ukulele using the D tuning. Suiting a song to my voice is just an example. Obtaining a more interesting sound in a group of other players who have ukuleles in C tuning is another. Sometimes, I just simply prefer the sound my ukulele makes when in D tuning. Sometimes by tuning ADF#B, I'm simply following the instructions printed on the sheet music which specifically say that's how the song should be played.

By the way, my voice does not need fixing! :mad:

zztush
03-27-2017, 10:41 PM
Hi, CeeJay! I know you have done. See you on another thread.


Chord shapes are chord shapes ...the chord shape for a C on a D tuned instrument is the same shape as a first position
Bb on a C tuned doohickey.... It is only the same as capoing the instrument...

Sayonara. I am done with this ,it goes round in squircles. See you on another thread.

https://s19.postimg.org/6uddpdypv/combine_images.png (https://postimg.org/image/4pt0oax33/)upload a picture (https://postimage.org/)


We don't play shape. We play chords. They are three chords key of C on C tuning and D tuning. Apparently D tuning is difficult than C tuning.

zztush
03-27-2017, 10:56 PM
Hi, jimavery.


No, zztush, the instrument does not have a "key". It has a "tuning". In that tuning it can be played in any key, albeit some keys might have more difficult chord shapes than others for that tuning.

There are lots of reasons why I might want to tune my ukulele using the D tuning. Suiting a song to my voice is just an example. Obtaining a more interesting sound in a group of other players who have ukuleles in C tuning is another. Sometimes, I just simply prefer the sound my ukulele makes when in D tuning. Sometimes by tuning ADF#B, I'm simply following the instructions printed on the sheet music which specifically say that's how the song should be played.

By the way, my voice does not need fixing! :mad:

D tuning doesn't resonant well with C and G tuning. Hence Orchestra's string instruments are all tuned in C or G. I have already explain it in this thread.

http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?125421-Why-soprano-concert-and-tenor-are-C-and-bariton-is-G-tuning

This thread is asked for the benefit of D tuning. Not the preference of our sound.

CeeJay
03-28-2017, 12:56 AM
Hi, jimavery.



D tuning doesn't resonant well with C and G tuning. Hence Orchestra's string instruments are all tuned in C or G. I have already explain it in this thread.

http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?125421-Why-soprano-concert-and-tenor-are-C-and-bariton-is-G-tuning

This thread is asked for the benefit of D tuning. Not the preference of our sound.

Because we are talking ukuleles not orchestral instruments. Shame about those other brass and woodwind instruments that tune in E Flat and B Flat and F s and things then ? Oh and the benefit is, to a ukulele player ? Well I think :

a) WE can ,

b) It sounds brighter and sparklier on a, or at least many sopranos.

That is my final word on this.:deadhorse::biglaugh: Cheers . It's been real.

Mivo
03-28-2017, 02:01 AM
It's worthwhile to mention that a large amount of music written for the ukulele, especially in the 1920-40s, is in D and Eflat tunings. C tuning being the ubiquitous ukulele tuning is a relatively modern development, and it is arguably a result of commercial interests, not because it makes any acoustic sense to have the same tuning for differently sized instruments.

jimavery
03-28-2017, 02:11 AM
https://s19.postimg.org/6uddpdypv/combine_images.png (https://postimg.org/image/4pt0oax33/)upload a picture (https://postimage.org/)

We don't play shape. We play chords. They are three chords key of C on C tuning and D tuning. Apparently D tuning is difficult than C tuning.

That argument brings us full circle to my point that very often songs are deliberately transposed one way or another to make them easier to play on a ukulele in C tuning. I think we've done this argument to death now. Clearly the correct tuning for a soprano ukulele is ADF#B. :p *








* or GCEA or BbEbGC or whatever tuning suits what you want to do with the song. Personally I favour C or D tuning about equally, I occasionally tune to Eb, and even more rarely C# if it helps me play along with a specific recording.

Tootler
03-28-2017, 02:39 AM
We don't play shape. We play chords. They are three chords key of C on C tuning and D tuning. Apparently D tuning is difficult than C tuning.

You're getting yourself in a terrible tangle generally.

First we play both shapes and chords. The chord names tell us the pitches to play, the shapes tell us about the arrangement of the fingers. The term shapes is in fact very useful because it allows us to describe the relationship between chords in different tuning. For example, in C tuning the chord shape for the G chord is made by fingering 0232. The same fingering or shape in D tuning gives an A chord. So if someone asks what an A chord in D tuning is, you can tell them to play a G-shape and, assuming they know how to play a G chord in C tuning then they will now know how to play an A chord in D tuning.

Similarly, if someone says they are really struggling with the E chord in C tuning and need to play in the key of E, you can tell them to put a capo on 2 and play D shapes. They will then know that with a capo on the 2nd fret if you then play as if you where playing in D (D, G, A) you will actually be playing in E.

As a recorder player I use similar terminology except we refer to it as fingering. On a C pitched recorder, the note G is made by covering the thumb hole and the three top holes with the fingers of the left hand. The same arrangement on an F pitched recorder gives the note C so it's the same fingering but a different note.


Hi, jimavery.

D tuning doesn't resonant well with C and G tuning. Hence Orchestra's string instruments are all tuned in C or G. I have already explain it in this thread.

http://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?125421-Why-soprano-concert-and-tenor-are-C-and-bariton-is-G-tuning


That sounds like rubbish to me. You refer to the orchestra but there are not just string instruments there is woodwind, brass and tuned percussion all with different sonorities which work together to produce a particular sound. They are often tuned to different base pitches but they will be tuned to a common standard and that will be taken from one instrument. When checking the final tuning an orchestra will fine tune to the oboe a very different instrument from the strings. In the green room before hand, it could well be they used a tuning fork - or, these days they may even have used an electronic tuner (shock, Horror!). I know the wind band I play in tunes to electronic tuners before going on stage when we give a concert.

Surely it's perfectly possible for ukuleles of different tunings to work together as long as they are tuned to a common standard pitch. The different tunings working together will give a different sound from all of the same tuning because the both the different sonorities and chord voicings and this can be taken advantage of in arranging a piece of music.



This thread is asked for the benefit of D tuning. Not the preference of our sound.

Surely, the point many people are making about D tuning is that it's the sound you get that they like it for. It's a brighter sound because it's overall pitched higher and this shows particularly in strumming and also many people feel that D tuning suits the soprano ukulele better because it fits better with the resonance of the small body.

Tootler
03-28-2017, 02:43 AM
I think we've done this argument to death now.


Agreed! :wallbash:

Pirate Jim
03-28-2017, 03:16 AM
Tootler, an excellent summary there! Whether it will change any minds is anyone's guess, as I've seen several threads started saying that C tuning is the only thing you should tune to on soprano - tenor sized ukes. I never cease to be amazed at how prescriptive attitudes can be when it comes to making music. It's an expressive art form, i.e. make it however the hell you like. James Hill even tunes one of his baritones to BEBE - is anyone really going to suggest he's wrong to tune it to anything other than DGBE?

The idea that instruments all tuned to a common pitch not resonating together is another puzzling one. I've done a lot of head scratching reading this thread. :confused:

zztush
03-28-2017, 12:09 PM
Hi, tootler! Thank you for reply.

Bottom figure shows the easy keys of both tuning. F, C, G, D and A are easy keys for GCEA tuning. Their diatonic chords are easy. They just shift to left one in D (ADF#B) tuning. Now F and C are not easy to play and E and B are now easy to play. Key of C and F are more important than key of E or B. Especially C is very important. And B is very rare to play even in guitars.

https://s19.postimg.org/egzj5rabn/combine_images.png (https://postimg.org/image/f6ibi4av3/)gifs upload (https://postimage.org/)

Do you still think shapes are same? If you think so it is ok but I want to know your opinion.

CeeJay
03-28-2017, 12:27 PM
Yes chord shapes are the same....

F shape on the guitar is exactly the same shape as at the eighth fret which is C the chord shape has moved up .The 0003 C chord on the ukulele ,(which
GCEA tuning is equivalent to the tuning on the guitar at the fifth fret) is actually an inversion of the 5433 which is the F "shape" (in fact partial F shape ) to guitarists. on the guitar if you barred at the fifth and played a single fret at the eighth you would be playing the simple uke C . Enough already, when you have painted yourself into a corner it is time to stop,wait for the paint to dry and walk away.

Oh and yes ...here we go ...on a D tuned uke 5433 will be a FULL D chord ....on a GCEA tuned uke the same 5433 will be C ......move that "shape" down two frets or one full tone and you will have ...HEY PRESTO ...D

THe shape is the chord .The tuning determines which chord it is.

daviddecom
03-28-2017, 12:41 PM
zztush: In most of the tuning threads that come up around here, you spend a lot of time defending GCEA tuning on the basis that the key of C is somehow sacred. For the purpose of teaching children about music theory, that may be close to the truth, but when it comes to playing real music, it's not true at all. People will play in the keys they want to play in, and if they want to tune their ukuleles to make it easier to play in those keys, that seems eminently reasonable.

Anyhow, a different way to think about the chord-shape vs. chord-name debate is to think of the chords as being relative to the tuning. So 0212 is a second inversion dominant 7th chord in the key of the fourth string, regardless of whether you're tuned re-entrant C6, D6, B-flat 6, etc. (and if you're using a linear tuning, it's still a dominant 7th chord in the key of the fourth string, just in root position).

zztush
03-28-2017, 08:35 PM
Thank you very much CeeJay and David.

I think C is the most important key but I don't think C is the only key. Hence I marked red squares on the figure above which includes 5 keys. I actually play F, C, G, D, A, E on both ukulele and guitar. What I talking here is that the benefits of D tuning are not these things pointed out here. These things are not benefits but disadvantages compared to C or G tunings. Because chords are more difficult, doesn't harmonize other instruments... I think not many people take D tuning with these reasons talked here. But there is really a benefit of D tuning. Paul McCartney takes D tuning on guitar with Yesterday and I took it on guitar too. I sometimes take D tuning. Shapes are all same doesn't come to this benefit.

jimavery
03-28-2017, 08:39 PM
Eb major in C tuning or F major in D tuning is an easy chord to play (0331). Just sayin' ...

Bill1
03-28-2017, 11:09 PM
Realistically, for the musically orientated player, tuning to D is about playing in the key of D and the keys that work with D. A good musical person doesn't go to the trouble of changing from C to D and then try to play in C, that is a waste of time in most cases. So when you tune to D you are looking at playing in D, A, E. Keys which are very popular in folk style music that work with D tuning. The C keys are popular for classical style music. But of course there are many exceptions as well.
My personal opinion is that adults who love folk and country and bluegrass style music should start out in the keys of G and D because that is where the action is for these genres. Or even mandolin/violin tuning. Whether you use C or D tuning is a matter of choosing a voice. Possibly if you love the high tenor pitch of Bill Munroe you would naturally go to D tuning, for example.
Also my opinion is that adults who love classical styles should start out in the key of C or G. But C is sometimes to easy and simple to learn lasting lessons. You are better off starting in G which has one sharp so you learn about sharps and flats from day one, in my opinion.
These are musical reasons for selecting tunings.
If you choose to select tunings because you like the sound or because there is a mystical magic in a tuning for you, I think you should stick to your opinion as much as you like and argue the point when ever you feel like. Possibly there is a point to have a rest and come back again later, but while the discussion boils along, why not enjoy some interesting discussion? UU Uke talk is here for discussion about ukuleles and what better thing to talk and argue about than how you tune your uke? But beware the discussion of tunings combined with A=432Hz if you want to avoid real troubles.

Tootler
03-29-2017, 11:32 AM
Zztush, I think you missed my point about chords and shapes.

If you tell someone that they need a C chord at a particular place they will (or should?) know that you need the pitchs C, E and G. There is more than one way of achieving that on a ukulele but that's beside the point at the moment, it's just that you need to put your fingers down in places that will give you those pitches.

The point I was making about shapes is that it's a convenient shorthand for telling someone how to play a chord in a different tuning by relating it to chords they know. So if someone is not sure how to play in D on a ukulele in D tuning you can tell them to 'use C shapes'. In other words you tell them to play as if they were playing in C on a C tuned ukulele. It had nothing to do with your argument around the circle of fifths. Simply a convenient shorthand for telling someone how they might finger a chord in an unfamiliar tuning by relating it to how they finger a chord in a tuning they are familiar with.

CeeJay also has a good point about being able to use the same shape to play different chords. It's a useful shorthand to be able to tell someone they can play a C using a Bb shape at the third fret. As you know, the Bb chord in C tuning is fingered 3211 and saying playing the Bb shape at the third fret (or moved up two frets) will give you 5433, same arrangement of the fingers, different chord. You can also tell them that the Bb shape on a ukulele in D tuning gives a C chord. Here you even have your fingers on the same frets but the point is that it's the same arrangement of the fingers but a different chord but it's also a useful shorthand for telling someone how to play a C chord in D tuning. Again nothing to do with the circle of fifths, simply knowing that the same arrangement of the fingers in different tunings gives different chords.

Tootler
03-29-2017, 11:34 AM
...beware the discussion of tunings combined with A=432Hz if you want to avoid real troubles.

If you want a baroque uke, tune it to A=415Hz :smileybounce:

zztush
03-29-2017, 01:16 PM
Hi, tootler! Thank you for reply!

This spreadsheet may show the difference between chord shapes are same or different.

https://s19.postimg.org/h0mfrr01v/new.png (https://postimg.org/image/n1k4otmnz/)photo hosting sites (https://postimage.org/)

I take Paul's D tuning, which takes advantage of different chord shapes and it has great benefit to us.

CeeJay
03-29-2017, 01:53 PM
Hi, tootler! Thank you for reply!

This spreadsheet may show the difference between chord shapes are same or different.

https://s19.postimg.org/h0mfrr01v/new.png (https://postimg.org/image/n1k4otmnz/)photo hosting sites (https://postimage.org/)

I take Paul's D tuning, which takes advantage of different chord shapes and it has great benefit to us.

Now you are just being rude .Time to close this thread I think.

daviddecom
03-29-2017, 03:10 PM
zztush: Your spreadsheet does not appear to even attempt to address whether chord shapes are the same or different when you tune up or down.

If you think in terms of named chords, then the shapes are different. The shape for the G7 chord is different in C6 tuning than D6 tuning. Same for C and so on.

However, if you think in terms of chords relative to the ukulele's tuning, then the shapes are the same. As I said before, 0212 is the second inversion dominant 7th chord in the key of the fourth string for any reentrant X6 tuning. Similarly, 0003 is the root position major chord in the key of the third string for any reentrant X6 tuning and so on.

I don't think this is a matter of opinion so much as perspective.

David

zztush
03-29-2017, 05:54 PM
Hi, david! Thank you for asking!

Paul takes key of G instead of F on his D tuning (instead of E).
Then the chords become far easier than before.

https://s19.postimg.org/rm6b3r6df/combine_images.png (https://postimg.org/image/4xh446ozj/)forum image hosting (https://postimage.org/)

We expect this advantage in D tuning in usual.

jimavery
03-29-2017, 08:28 PM
zztush, how dare you presume to represent my reasoning? I am deeply offended!

jimavery
03-29-2017, 08:31 PM
Hi, tootler! Thank you for reply!

This spreadsheet may show the difference between chord shapes are same or different.

https://s19.postimg.org/h0mfrr01v/new.png (https://postimg.org/image/n1k4otmnz/)photo hosting sites (https://postimage.org/)

I take Paul's D tuning, which takes advantage of different chord shapes and it has great benefit to us.


For the record, this sheet almost entirely misrepresents what I do and why I do it. I'm not going to elaborate.

Tootler
03-29-2017, 09:31 PM
Hi, tootler! Thank you for reply!

This spreadsheet may show the difference between chord shapes are same or different.

https://s19.postimg.org/h0mfrr01v/new.png (https://postimg.org/image/n1k4otmnz/)photo hosting sites (https://postimage.org/)

I take Paul's D tuning, which takes advantage of different chord shapes and it has great benefit to us.

It doesn't say anything of the sort

Tootler
03-29-2017, 09:32 PM
zztush: Your spreadsheet does not appear to even attempt to address whether chord shapes are the same or different when you tune up or down.

If you think in terms of named chords, then the shapes are different. The shape for the G7 chord is different in C6 tuning than D6 tuning. Same for C and so on.

However, if you think in terms of chords relative to the ukulele's tuning, then the shapes are the same. As I said before, 0212 is the second inversion dominant 7th chord in the key of the fourth string for any reentrant X6 tuning. Similarly, 0003 is the root position major chord in the key of the third string for any reentrant X6 tuning and so on.

I don't think this is a matter of opinion so much as perspective.

David

Well put.

Someone has got himself in a tangle and seems unwilling to admit it.

Tootler
03-29-2017, 09:37 PM
My final word on this and I'm out. I'm very tempted to ask the mods to close the thread.

To me the difference between chord names and chord shapes is similar to the difference between staff notation and tab. The first (in each case) tells you what pitches to play the second tells you where to put your fingers. Simples.

buddhuu
03-29-2017, 10:31 PM
Good morning all (please adjust to accommodate your time zone).

Actually, yeah, with apologies to the OP I am going to close this one. If the OP objects, please PM me and I'll reconsider.

buddhuu
03-29-2017, 10:37 PM
A few things:

zztush, there is no rule that says people have to agree with you so maybe try presenting debatable points as opinions rather than facts. You may encounter less opposite reaction that way.

Also, guys, please don't call for thread closure if you aren't the OP. By all means report threads that are going wrong, but the judgement to close or otherwise isn't yours to call. The thread "owner" or your mods will decide that.

Have as nice a day as is possible under current global circumstances.